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  #51  
Old 02-05-2009, 09:23 PM
SHAFT SHAFT is offline
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I agree they are all somewhat different techniques. However, unless you are driving your hand with your arm or you body, they all involve "fine motor skills". If it involves your fingers doing something, it is fine by definition. The only autos I'm aware of, that won't work by using the stop are the few that don't have a stop. Again, the techniques are fine. The arguments leave much to be desired and have blown into something they are not. I think it was brought up before, if you think you won't be able to hit the stop, you certainly won't be able to hit the mag release in the first place. The argument does not pass "go".
Use what ever TTP you want. All three are GTG. For me the "saddle" is the least desirable, but it may work fine for you. Just don't tell me that you have chosen your technique because you like to keep it simple. So do I. That is what I do what I do.

Important Note: I am not argueing which techniqe is better. I'm more conserned with the arguemts them selves. Some are full of holes.
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  #52  
Old 02-05-2009, 09:52 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAFT View Post
if you think you won't be able to hit the stop, you certainly won't be able to hit the mag release in the first place. The argument does not pass "go".
That's a very good point, IMO.
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  #53  
Old 02-05-2009, 10:16 PM
Armed Infidel Armed Infidel is offline
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I like economy of motion. For me, an overhand grasp of the slide to release it works well as I drive my weapon toward the target, but tactical reloads work even faster!
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  #54  
Old 02-06-2009, 07:33 AM
MikeyB MikeyB is offline
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When I went the the CCW course the instructor had no issues of me using the slide release on my 1911. I prefer using the slide release anyway since I practice that way. I can easily see more malfunctions doing it manually by riding the slide.

MikeyB
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  #55  
Old 02-06-2009, 02:25 PM
scott 40s&w scott 40s&w is offline
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It is not about which method works. they all work. the difference is how long it takes to get the gun back up and running when it stops,
Regardless of what stops it.
It is now time to put your technique to the shot timer test. If we all do the same test I believe it will show the difference.
Here goes;
load 4 magazines with 2,3,4,5 rounds respectfully, in the 4 and 5 round mags load a dummy round (not first or last) mix up the mags so you don't know how they are loaded. Now load 1 mag in the gun and shoot till it stops reload (or tap &rack)and shoot till it stops. Write down the # of rounds fired the type of stoppage and how long it took to get the gun back running the timer will give you the split time when review it. You should be faster with the overhand method because the actions are the same and you don't have to move the gun in your hand to operate the slide release. The timer will tell the truth then it won't be a matter of opinion. Of course there will be some slow down for the guys that never use the overhand method since they are not familar with this method. I look forward to the results being posted here.
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  #56  
Old 02-06-2009, 02:28 PM
BillD BillD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott 40s&w View Post
It is not about which method works. they all work. the difference is how long it takes to get the gun back up and running when it stops,
Regardless of what stops it.
It is now time to put your technique to the shot timer test. If we all do the same test I believe it will show the difference.
Here goes;
load 4 magazines with 2,3,4,5 rounds respectfully, in the 4 and 5 round mags load a dummy round (not first or last) mix up the mags so you don't know how they are loaded. Now load 1 mag in the gun and shoot till it stops reload (or tap &rack)and shoot till it stops. Write down the # of rounds fired the type of stoppage and how long it took to get the gun back running the timer will give you the split time when review it. You should be faster with the overhand method because the actions are the same and you don't have to move the gun in your hand to operate the slide release. The timer will tell the truth then it won't be a matter of opinion. Of course there will be some slow down for the guys that never use the overhand method since they are not familar with this method. I look forward to the results being posted here.
Scott

I use tap rack bang as a failure drill using the overhand method.

When I reload, I use the slide stop.

I dont use a failure drill to change a mag.
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  #57  
Old 02-06-2009, 02:30 PM
sethmark sethmark is offline
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I've done that drill a number of times and the time that matters is not to reloaded but to the next shot. I'm pushing the gun back out and dropping the slide in the same motion and sights are on target statistically faster for me by utilizing the slide release.

While you're busy putting your hand over the sights to rack the slide, I'm pushing the gun back onto the target and reacquiring sights.

EDIT:
If you actually want to be FASTER, you don't run your gun dry in the first place. Whenever you have a break in targets, RELOAD!
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Last edited by sethmark; 02-06-2009 at 02:40 PM.
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  #58  
Old 02-06-2009, 02:40 PM
SharkZF6 SharkZF6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD View Post
I use tap rack bang as a failure drill using the overhand method.

When I reload, I use the slide stop.

I dont use a failure drill to change a mag.
Absolutely agree with all the above statements!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sethmark View Post
While you're busy putting your hand over the sights to rack the slide, I'm pushing the gun back onto the target and reacquiring sights.
+1 - Well stated!
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  #59  
Old 02-06-2009, 02:50 PM
Red Dirt Dave Red Dirt Dave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD View Post
I use tap rack bang as a failure drill using the overhand method.

When I reload, I use the slide stop.

I dont use a failure drill to change a mag.
My way of thinking and training also.
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  #60  
Old 02-06-2009, 03:03 PM
LW McVay's Avatar
LW McVay LW McVay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott 40s&w View Post
You should be faster with the overhand method because the actions are the same and you don't have to move the gun in your hand to operate the slide release.
Scott, you don't have to move the gun in your shooting hand to operate the slide stop...that operation is done by the non-firing hand and is virtually instantaneous in conjunction with reestablishing a two handed firing grip.
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  #61  
Old 02-06-2009, 03:31 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethmark View Post
I'm pushing the gun back out and dropping the slide in the same motion and sights are on target statistically faster for me by utilizing the slide release.

While you're busy putting your hand over the sights to rack the slide, I'm pushing the gun back onto the target and reacquiring sights.
That's exactly what I do, also. It feels like one single fluid motion: seat mag-hit slidestop-acquire sights while slide returns in battery. It can be done with a disabled weak hand too, to a certain extent.
I see the points of commonality of training and TRB, I'm just opting not to worry about them by sticking to the 1911. I'm also lucky in that I fumble during training (conscious thought interference), not under stress, so the fine motor skill argument doesn't hold water for me.
It's always interesting to hear about people doing things differently, though, and I don't completely discount the other methods. More tools in the box that come in handy when Murphy shows up.
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  #62  
Old 02-10-2009, 03:56 PM
Klingon00 Klingon00 is offline
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I like to shoot a FN Browning 1910/22 and Walther PPK/S on occasion just for fun. Neither have external slide stop/release in the conventional sense that the 1911 has, so it's become second nature to me to overhand rack the slide on all automatics I use. I also often "practice" failure drills as sometimes the 1922 has a tendency to double feed on occasion, and so its just ingrained the overhand method as second nature to me. It sounds like there's no wrong method in general, just wrong methods for the individual. I've heard it said that you are only half as good as your training in a high stress situation, so I say pick one method that works best for you and the guns you are most likely to be using and stick to it so that you build muscle memory. I feel that it should be second nature and you shouldn't have to think about what method you will be using when IT hits the fan.
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  #63  
Old 02-10-2009, 05:26 PM
Redhat Redhat is offline
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Interesting conversation (though not a new one). Everytime I hear this I wonder , for those who like the idea that only gross motor skills should be used, if that is so, how can anyone be expected to find the itty bitty magazine release or place the fully loaded magazine between the pinky and ring finger while ripping the offending magazine out and manipulating the slide?

Reaching the slide stop without changing grip? Can you depress the mag release without adjusting your grip? Not sure I want mine where I can... I could accidentally dump the mag. It would also depend on the size of erach shooter's hand wouldn't it?

I agree Glocks and other pistols with small slide stops may be better operated by the overhand/slingshot method and others (1911) with the slide stop, however, what about weapons like the Beretta M92? Anyone ever seen those placed on safe when "overhanding" the slide? I agree learning "a way" that works with "most" pistols might be a good choice, but it might not work with all.

If over hand is faster, I wonder how many of the top IPSC guys use it?

In the end I think it is wise to know your weapon and become proficient in it's operation.

Shoot safe!
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  #64  
Old 02-10-2009, 07:17 PM
SHAFT SHAFT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LW McVay View Post
Scott, you don't have to move the gun in your shooting hand to operate the slide stop...that operation is done by the non-firing hand and is virtually instantaneous in conjunction with reestablishing a two handed firing grip.
I'm freaked out by the fact we agree fairly offten as of late!

The pistol is back in the firing grip and solid, before the mag is reached.

Scott, one point you had makes a lot of sence and I agree. The target and the timer don't lie. Remember many of us use the TTPs that we do BECAUSE of the timmer.
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  #65  
Old 02-10-2009, 08:51 PM
Mus Mus is offline
 
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This subject is like the thread that never ends it just goes on and on my friends...
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  #66  
Old 02-17-2009, 09:45 AM
taozen79 taozen79 is offline
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slide ride accident

I had a friend who was teaching his wife to load his 45... Carelessly I might add. Well to make a long story short. He was teaching her to ride the slide down to seat the first round, not to use the slide release. Unfortunately she was a small gal and not very strong in the upper arm area. She road the slide and when it hit, her hand moved on forward over the barrel's opening, at the same time she pulled the trigger because her finger was on the trigger.(second mistake). She took out two Knuckles in her left hand with the incident.

So if she had used the slide release and kept her finger out of the trigger guard, it would have gone much better...


TAO
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  #67  
Old 02-17-2009, 06:22 PM
raimius raimius is offline
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Riding the slide back is just asking for a FTRB, IMO.
Sorry to hear about that incident.

Rule #3...
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  #68  
Old 02-17-2009, 07:50 PM
LS6TT LS6TT is offline
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gotta chime in.. while i have cycled ammo through the 1911 ive noticed on cheaper ammo when i use the slide lock the round jams, when i do it with more expensive ammo it loads great.
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  #69  
Old 02-22-2009, 12:01 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott 40s&w View Post
You should be faster with the overhand method because the actions are the same and you don't have to move the gun in your hand to operate the slide release.
Scott
This implies two things:

1- pistol is set up in such a way that it allows overhand method; as it has been implied above, one cannot use overhand on some pistols.

2- since you're suggesting that gun has to be moved in hand to operate the slide stop, one must presume you think that the slide stop is to be released with a strong hand thumb. If that's the case, I really question your expertise in this matter. I apologize if my assumption is incorrect.
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  #70  
Old 02-23-2009, 02:31 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Food for thought or gasoline on the fire...you guys be the judges (), but Mas Ayoob states having injected volunteers with epinephrin at LFI back in 1998 to replicate the effects of the "dump" and having concluded that the slingshot method was more fumble-prone under stress than the slide stop one.
Of course one can argue with the scientific validity of the test, or that it does not apply to their own situation, but I find that interesting since most people seem to favor the slingshot largely on the grounds of "fine motor skills degradation" theories.
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  #71  
Old 02-23-2009, 05:55 PM
Redhat Redhat is offline
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Now that's dedication!!!

Still waiting on someone to answer the questions I posed???
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  #72  
Old 02-23-2009, 06:38 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
Still waiting on someone to answer the questions I posed???
I fully agree with the points you brought up, and SHAFT makes the one about fine motor skills just a little higher.
In the end people pick one way of doing things, then try and come up with more or less convincing rationalizations for their choices - a posteriori.
The choices you make say something about who you are, not whether you're right or wrong. And I'm not just talking about guns...
It's always interesting to hear different points of view, though. But I don't get swayed that easily in reason of what I just stated.
And after trying them all, I personally dropped the tac reload methods you mention from my modest repertoire. Not counting on sweaty/bloody/shaky hands to securely hold SS mags between 2 fingers while slamming a mag home, but I'm not telling anyone else to follow my lead. I focus on speed reloads and try and KISS. Seen too many instructors drop elaborate routines that didn't hold up to experience years later. There's the timer test and there's the smell test - a valid tactic should pass both, but smell is subjective. YMMW...
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  #73  
Old 02-23-2009, 07:57 PM
R_CRUZ R_CRUZ is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkos59 View Post
When reloading from slide lock I keep the pistol pointed in the direction of the target, insert a fresh mag with my off hand,and release the slide lock with my off hand thumb as I regain a two hand grip and place the sights on target.
+1
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  #74  
Old 02-23-2009, 08:52 PM
BoulderTroll BoulderTroll is offline
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I use the "C clamp" method (four fingers over the top of the strong hand side). If I owned a Beretta I'd probably change my style, but for my 1911, SIG's and Glocks it works best for me. The primary reason I use it is that's what's been drilled into me with training. Not to mention the fact that I can't reach the 1911 slide stop and there's no way I'd be able to use the support hand to release it like some of you guys do (hell, I just got my opposable thumbs last week ). C clamp works great for me. Is it the best? who knows...can I do it the best? Yep.
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  #75  
Old 02-26-2009, 06:08 PM
NAMVET72 NAMVET72 is offline
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Slide Release

Do that when you are using it to protect yourself or family members and you will be the first one to hit the ground.
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