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  #1  
Old 02-21-2009, 07:26 AM
asupilot asupilot is offline
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230 gr. to Carry or Not...

Last night at my local range one of the employees was giving me crap because I've only been shooting 230 gr. rounds in my CBOB. He said "speed kills" and that I should step down to a 200 gr. or even a 185 gr. round to increase speed and energy. I understand "speed kills," but what is the consensus for us 1911 guys when it comes to projo weight for personal defense rounds?
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  #2  
Old 02-21-2009, 07:36 AM
LSCurrier LSCurrier is offline
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Speed doesn't kill. Sufficiently damaging your intended target is what kills.

I think any quality .45ACP ammo will do the job with proper shot placement.

230gr FMJ worked well for the US military for how many years?

Hollow-Point bullets can expand more in some situations (maybe even most situations), but they can also become fouled and not perform as well when the target has heavy layers of clothes. Also, hollow-point bullets may not penetrate barriers, or even your target, as well as FMJ - and as well as may be required.

I would feel comfortable using any .45ACP ammo that performs well in my 1911. I tend to use 230gr FMJ or 230gr Name Brand Hollow-Point.

I've thought of this somewhat and if I were able to carry full-time I would carry 7+1 Hollow-Point in my 1911, 8 round Hollow-Point spare magazine, and a 8 round FMJ spare magazine.

Luke
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Last edited by LSCurrier; 02-21-2009 at 07:46 AM.
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  #3  
Old 02-21-2009, 08:12 AM
R_CRUZ R_CRUZ is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asupilot View Post
He said "speed kills" and that I should step down to a 200 gr. or even a 185 gr. round to increase speed and energy.
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  #4  
Old 02-21-2009, 08:20 AM
69charger 69charger is offline
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This one has been asked many times. For me, I say 230 gr is what the 1911 is built to use so go with it. I agree that shot placement is the key to winning the fight.
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  #5  
Old 02-21-2009, 08:28 AM
NETim NETim is offline
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I don't know that the term, "speed", can be used when discussing most handgun rounds. 800, 900, even 1000 fps can be considered "speed?"

Always seems to come down to a few simple questions:

1) What load does your gun function reliably with?
2) What load do you and the gun shoot most accurately?

The rest is just fodder for gun board chat.
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  #6  
Old 02-21-2009, 08:29 AM
BillD BillD is offline
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In SD ammo, I always try to use the heaviest bullet for caliber.

The 230 gr will do the job if you can do yours.
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  #7  
Old 02-21-2009, 08:39 AM
ridgerunner665 ridgerunner665 is offline
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Enough speed kills...but its hard to get enough speed out of most CCW rounds.

The "magic number" is 1,300 fps...at that speed, the rules change a bit. Below that speed...I'll carry the heavy, slow 230 grain JHP's with confidence.
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  #8  
Old 02-21-2009, 09:13 AM
cwo4uscgret cwo4uscgret is offline
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Ammo for carry...

My favorite carry ammo is by Remington; 230 grain jhp sub-sonic (830 fps) it is their bullet #L45AP7. It is the same round the SFPD used when they carried/were issued .45 acp handguns. Every 1911 .45 I have easily digests this ammo; its profile is almost identical to a 230 grain ball round; in my opinion it is a very good carry ammo. I've never had a mis-fire of mis-feed with this ammo.

Quote:
Also, hollow-point bullets may not penetrate barriers
LSCurrier - I don't quite understand your comment; are you trying to imply that you would try to shoot at someone through a barrier? I can only imagine the potential legal liabilities of doing this. How would I have know there were 7 small children hiding behind that wall???
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  #9  
Old 02-21-2009, 09:34 AM
GSWEAR GSWEAR is offline
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I think any quality SD ammo that functions 100% in your gun is good ammo, being proficent with your gun and placeing good center of mass hits is more important than brand or weight of the bullet, just my .02.
On that note I prefer 230gr TAP or Gold Dots FWIW.
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  #10  
Old 02-21-2009, 10:56 AM
robertrwalsh robertrwalsh is offline
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What you are shooting will do the job if you can hit with it. Are there "better" loads; probably yes. Should you sweat it a lot; probably not.
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  #11  
Old 02-21-2009, 11:30 AM
ancient_serpent ancient_serpent is offline
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I switched from 230 gr. Golden Sabers to 165 gr powR'Ball because of a bullet design issue, but not a bullet weight issue.
I really think that people get too hung up on the bullet weight vs. FPS bit. As long as it is a well designed bullet that feeds reliably in your handgun I really think you'll be fine.
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  #12  
Old 02-21-2009, 11:47 AM
DR505 DR505 is offline
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I talked to some of the guys at Quantico. The FBI mandated 230 grain Remington Golden Sabers after some extensive testing was done. They used the following protocol:

http://www.seark.net/~jlove/fbitest.htm

It is pretty extensive so I just pasted a link.
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  #13  
Old 02-21-2009, 12:09 PM
Tinker Pearce Tinker Pearce is offline
 
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Really any good quality hollowpoint bullet that works in your gun will do. Never mind the math, horror stories or whatever. In documented actual shootings 230gr. ball doesn't work terrifically well compared to good quality hollowpoints and can overpenetrate. In a civilian self-defense scenario that extra penetration is much more likely to be a liability than an asset.

Whatever ammo you use is academic of course if you can't rapidly and reliably put the shots where you want them.
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  #14  
Old 02-21-2009, 12:48 PM
USAZ USAZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD View Post
In SD ammo, I always try to use the heaviest bullet for caliber.

The 230 gr will do the job if you can do yours.


----- Also my preference and thought. I use any 230gr HP that reliably feeds, whether it's in a subcompact or full sized pistol.

Last edited by USAZ; 02-21-2009 at 12:58 PM.
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  #15  
Old 02-21-2009, 01:39 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Back in the mid '70's I read an article in a popular science rag that proclaimed that "the debate is over: light and fast won". It went on to explain how kinetic energy (mainly a function of velocity) was "proven" to be the end all be all of terminal ballistics.
The adoption of the 9mm by the U.S. military in the '80's (after decades of reliance on the .45) and the move to light HP's for LE (Silvertips and Supervels in particular) seemed to validate the claim.
Then the FBI took a beating in Miami in 1986, blamed it on the light 9mm Silvertip, and finally issued a report in 1989 that squarely placed the emphasis on penetration, instead of "speed" or expansion. Handgun rounds are puny, just make sure you reach those vitals first, is what they said.
Ever since, LE agencies throughout the country have gone to rounds that are heavy for caliber: 9mm/147, .40/180, and .45/230. More momentum, more sectional density, more penetration.
And ammo manufacturers have been busy making sure that their projectiles would open up regardless of the lower velocities, so we seem to have the best of both worlds. Reliable penetration and expansion.
Lately, I've been following with amusement and curiosity some scholars (and what not) attempting to challenge the current accepted dogma with talk of ballisitic pressure wave and other far-fetched temporary cavity theories. I frankly suspect that the ammo manufacturers who invested long ago in researching fast and light loads are funding those efforts to keep pushing their products, but you never know. Things come and go, then come back again, if you live long enough to watch the whole thing...

Personally, I think it's safer to stick to what science and/or the FBI says at a given point in time. I like listening to people who actually kill on a regular basis (hunters) and they also favor heavy bullets. So I've been running slow and heavy .45's for a good while.
All my CBOB eats is high-calories 230 grains...

I think that range employee simply never bothered to keep up with the times and was just repeating some 15-20 year old mantra. The terms "speed" and "kills" instead of "velocity" and "stop" are tip-offs.
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  #16  
Old 02-21-2009, 03:53 PM
asupilot asupilot is offline
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Excellent responses from all of you, thanks. I've shot some premium rounds in my gun and they all felt/shot great. The only thing I've noticed is that my CBOB likes premium ammo a lot more than the Magtech I use for normal range work as my groupings speak for themselves. I'm so inexperienced that I can' really tell the difference; all of them have loaded flawlessly into my CBOB, which I now have 575 rounds through. I run Tripp mags also.

Last night I shot the Winchester Ranger +P, Remington Golden Saber, CorBon +P, Speer LE +P, all 230 gr. I've also shot the Federal Hydra-Shok and Hornady +P, both 230 gr. My CBOB likes all of them. Right now I'm carrying the CorBon +P since I only have 10 left. I haven't shot the Federal HST which seems to have an almost cult following, so I'm curious. What other rounds should I be considering? Thanks in advance.
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  #17  
Old 02-21-2009, 04:21 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Sounds like you got all your ammo bases covered! Ranger T's, Gold Dots, and HST's are pretty much IT. Golden Sabers and Hornady TAP's are also excellent.
Then there's the +P and bonded variants of some of the above.
It's all about personal preference at that level (yours and your gun's).
Use what feeds best, is most accurate, and you feel most comfortable with.
I'm currently running Golden Sabers because I know they feed well. When I'm done messing with my own CBOB, ammo testing will really start and I'm hoping to go with HST's. Like you, I've stocked up on all the good stuff (except Rangers that were too hard to get ) and I'd be happy with any of these loads.
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  #18  
Old 02-21-2009, 04:59 PM
sevenplusone sevenplusone is offline
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"speed kills" is somewhat of an old-school saying. Reality is shot placement and a reliable gun kill. My CBob has been 100% reliable and I have tried just about every premium hollowpoint I can find. I have had really good success (accuracy wise) with 230 grain Corbon +p. That said, I would have no second thoughts about throwing ANY of my stocked up 230grain hollowpoints in my gun. I personally do not care for the lighter loads (185, 165) because they seem to me with my gun to have more felt recoil. It's a snappier recoil. Unlike the 230 grain push, I get 185 grain snap. Just my opinion. Find what works in YOUR gun and go with. I am currently testing and possibly switching to the bonded Winchester.
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  #19  
Old 02-21-2009, 06:25 PM
DANCESWITHGUNS DANCESWITHGUNS is offline
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Speed kills? Opinons are like, well ya know. Listen, that range guy was flexing his know it all hog wash @ ya because you might be a little green yet. I'm quite sure a slow and heavy 230 grn ball rnd between the eye spheres is better than a lightweight hollow point to the arm. Practice with what you shoot and shoot with what you practice. I carry 230 grn ball rnd. because of my own pref., I'll take reliability over a possibe wider wound channel anyday.

Shot placement is key.
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Old 02-21-2009, 07:05 PM
ancient_serpent ancient_serpent is offline
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As sevenplusone posted, I too feel that the "felt" recoil from a 165 gr bullet is a bit snappier than in comparison to a 230 gr bullet.
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  #21  
Old 02-21-2009, 07:35 PM
Armed Infidel Armed Infidel is offline
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That's what I carry... 230gr Federal HSTs. They will do the job as long as I do mine!
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  #22  
Old 02-21-2009, 07:50 PM
.45calRotty .45calRotty is offline
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I really do not think anyone that ever gets shot, cares how fast the bullet was going.
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  #23  
Old 02-21-2009, 07:51 PM
tsp45acp tsp45acp is offline
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I only carry 230 gr jhp's in my ccw guns.

The reason that the 165's seem to have more "snap" is because they're +P's. I don't know of any standard pressure 165's. Most 185's are +P also. There are some standard pressure 185's, but most are +P. Tracy
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  #24  
Old 02-21-2009, 10:44 PM
sevenplusone sevenplusone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsp45acp View Post
I only carry 230 gr jhp's in my ccw guns.

The reason that the 165's seem to have more "snap" is because they're +P's. I don't know of any standard pressure 165's. Most 185's are +P also. There are some standard pressure 185's, but most are +P. Tracy
I was talking about 230gr +p compared to 185/165gr +p. I can't speak for those that commented after me.
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  #25  
Old 02-22-2009, 05:55 AM
cheshirecat cheshirecat is offline
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I don't think there would be much difference if you can land two shots in center mass. Regardless of what cartridge you use they'll either be dead or crawling around on the floor dripping blood on your carpet.
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