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  #1  
Old 02-18-2009, 08:50 PM
HAWK45 HAWK45 is offline
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Training Academys - Why eveyone wearing OWB?

Question:

I watch all the shooting shows on the Outdoor channel. I've never been to one but plan on going to a local place this summer. To me it seems that each time I watch one of these shows at one of the "Big" Academys that everyone is wearing an OWB holsters (instructors included). Is this really practical real life training? Don't most of us carry IWB for concealability? If you aren't training for real world situations aren't you just wasting your money and time?

Just trying to understand...

Thanks,
Hawk
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2009, 09:20 PM
dunndw dunndw is offline
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When I train I use a OWB. It rides in the same position as my IWB. I tried one training class with my IWB and ended up spending a lot of time:
1.trying to to burn my fat roll
2. retucking my shirt

the numerous draws and re holstering helped me make that decision. In a real incident I don't think the change to IWB is going to hinder me. The only time I wear OWB is in high round count classes and IDPA
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  #3  
Old 02-18-2009, 09:33 PM
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AZ Husker AZ Husker is online now
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They use them for the same reason you see all the instructors with timers...unrealistic gaming. The last class I took the instructions were clear...you used what you carry, including cover garments. MUCH more realistic. Not as fast, but when we were done, our instincts knew what to do.
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  #4  
Old 02-19-2009, 12:55 AM
Mus Mus is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunndw View Post
The only time I wear OWB is in high round count classes and IDPA
Sounds problematic. Unless you train extensively on your own time IWB all your practice is using a method you dont really use while carrying?
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Old 02-19-2009, 05:47 AM
BillD BillD is offline
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IWB can be really hot during a high round count class.

Those guns can get HOT.

IWB is not as fast but the gun is essentially in the same position, just tighter in the holster, at least for me.
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Old 02-19-2009, 06:36 AM
Dreadnought Dreadnought is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Husker View Post
They use them for the same reason you see all the instructors with timers...unrealistic gaming. The last class I took the instructions were clear...you used what you carry, including cover garments. MUCH more realistic. Not as fast, but when we were done, our instincts knew what to do.
I haven't been to big schools, just small academies. IMHO, unless one were to go to war or force-on-force with simunitions, every type of training is unrealistic gaming, some more useful than others.
For my gaming, I wore/wear how I carry, same goes for IDPA. I was the only guy in our squad last weekend wearing an IWB, and only three of the 20 with a "normal" cover garment. Well, there was one LEO who was wearing his duty rig, but he shot the wrong targets on one stage and scared the crap out of the SO with how nonchalantly he did it.
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  #7  
Old 02-19-2009, 07:49 AM
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Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunndw View Post
When I train I use a OWB. It rides in the same position as my IWB. I tried one training class with my IWB and ended up spending a lot of time:
1.trying to to burn my fat roll
2. retucking my shirt
Exactly. It's also a safety issue if you discover you need to retuck your shirt while your gun is in your hand.

If your OWB position and cant duplicates your IWB holster, I don't see an issue regarding the commonality of training.
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Old 02-19-2009, 08:25 AM
WalterGC WalterGC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Burke View Post
Exactly. It's also a safety issue if you discover you need to retuck your shirt while your gun is in your hand.

If your OWB position and cant duplicates your IWB holster, I don't see an issue regarding the commonality of training.

OWB doesn't duplicate IWB, in any situation. You either train as you carry, or you take your chances.
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Old 02-19-2009, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterGC View Post
OWB doesn't duplicate IWB, in any situation. You either train as you carry, or you take your chances.

I disagree.
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  #10  
Old 02-19-2009, 08:53 AM
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Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterGC View Post
you take your chances.
You take your chances either way.
Having participated in the NTI on many occasions, always using my carry gear, I never had an issue with my draw, even though the bulk of my training is with an OWB holster.
I'd be interested to hear other data points.
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  #11  
Old 02-19-2009, 09:10 AM
mitrod3 mitrod3 is offline
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A good discussion going here..............

During a class I will go OWB, because of the same issues already mentioned above and also because one aspect of my training deals with the reality that I might be doing part time security work when I retire from current job which would entail OWB carry.

But, as shared by my usual local instructor, use the OWB for the intensive high round count training times, then go home and practice what you need to be practicing using your IWB if that is how you usually carry. This may entail an unloaded weapon or dry fire, if one is in ones home doing this, or it may mean hitting the range for some live fire using your IWB but without the heavy number of rounds going out that went out during the class.

As he hammers home, training does not simply consist of the SD/HD class time but it is ongoing. It is up to you to work through what might be a real life situation and circumstance (in terms of how you usually carry) and work on what you need to practice for that potential.

Be safe, shoot well.

Last edited by mitrod3; 02-19-2009 at 09:19 AM.
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  #12  
Old 02-19-2009, 09:23 AM
CelticWarrior13 CelticWarrior13 is offline
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Convenience, safety, sameness of presentation (you don't have someone crouching on the line to draw from an ankle holster, etc...) safety, speed (game quality) etc...

A good class will have aspect built into it where the participant and instructor(s) are the only ones on the range and the student carries and draws from whatever they would typically carry in. This does reduce student count and is not profitable so it's not done much by academies that charge their students.

Our people are instructed to bring whatever they daily carry with - that is what they will primarily train with. They can train with other options as well - but primarily it will be how it's primarily carried.
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  #13  
Old 02-19-2009, 11:02 AM
ancient_serpent ancient_serpent is offline
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Probably boils down to the adage "train as you fight" being applied by us to the best of our abilities in regards to skill level, experience and the type of course or school attended.
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  #14  
Old 02-19-2009, 04:56 PM
R_CRUZ R_CRUZ is offline
 
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Carry gun - IWB; game gun - OWB

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunndw View Post
The only time I wear OWB is in high round count classes and IDPA
That is exactly my main concern about IDPA. I have seen lots of videos and pictures of people shooting IDPA with no cover garment whatsoever . The way I see it is that they are just shooting IPSC with some stricter rules of engagement and cover. BTW, I wonder if those wearing vests actually carry that way.

I lurk many gun forums and I have notice a trend: many people do not use their carry guns when they are attending high round count classes or gun schools. To each their own.

Rant mode off.
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  #15  
Old 02-19-2009, 05:32 PM
ColtLover ColtLover is offline
 
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From straight drop Kydex to IWB, the difference in the drawstroke for me is about .25 seconds with concealment garment (Mtn Hardware Coat or Simms Vest) and .15 seconds with no concealment. I practice both but I really like carrying in a VM-II, Kramer IWB, or something similar. I recently shot a IDPA Classifier from concealment w/ VM-II and still shot within 3 seconds of my normal time.
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  #16  
Old 02-19-2009, 05:48 PM
Ben B. Ben B. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R_CRUZ
That is exactly my main concern about IDPA. I have seen lots of videos and pictures of people shooting IDPA with no cover garment whatsoever . The way I see it is that they are just shooting IPSC with some stricter rules of engagement and cover.
Might be a classifier, no cover garment required on the classifier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by R_CRUZ
BTW, I wonder if those wearing vests actually carry that way.
Not in my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R_CRUZ
I lurk many gun forums and I have notice a trend: many people do not use their carry guns when they are attending high round count classes or gun schools. To each their own.

Rant mode off.
I usually shoot IDPA with a kydex OWB, and a 5" 1911 if shooting .45. I shot my most recent IDPA with a carry IWB and my CBOB. It's a bit more of a PITA reholstering, and slows the draw a bit, otherwise I didnt see any problems. I shot a match once with my Kahr PM40, and did quite well with it, but couldn't use the pocket hoplster I routinely carry it in.

Try shooting one of these with a J-frame. It's not much fun, and fun is the reason I do it. Doing hurried reloads with a J-frame is asinine and completely unrealistic in my opinion, but necessary to finish a stage.

So it's always the same thing in IDPA: Are you there to play or to practice?

BTW, have you shot in an IDPA?
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  #17  
Old 02-19-2009, 06:49 PM
Black Jack Black Jack is offline
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I always wear OWB, doesn't matter whether I am in a training class, placticing on the range or walking down the isle at Wal-Mart.

I wear a Galco pancake holster, I beleave the current model of it is now called the Combat Master Belt Holster. It rides nice and tight at about 3:30 and it conceales well with anything from a lightweight untucked shirt on up to a heavy jacket. It is easy to draw and reholster. And best of all, it is comfortable.
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  #18  
Old 02-19-2009, 07:25 PM
SHAFT SHAFT is offline
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I think some get too carried away on subjects like this. Weather I am carrying consealed OWB or IWB, I'm carrying uncoverd OWB or I have a "tac" style holster, as long as the pistol is where I put it when I go for it, It won't make much difference. Sure, there will be a different amounts of time involved, but they will be there no matter what techniqe you choose.
How you carry will be METT-TC dependent. As long as you train with the TTP you use, the world will probably remain on it's axis.
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  #19  
Old 02-19-2009, 07:42 PM
Patrick604 Patrick604 is offline
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Hmmm, IWB means on the strong side hip up tight to the body. OWB means on the strong side hip up tight to the body. Draw stroke is essentially the same, though it takes longer to reholster most IWB rigs. I carry 99% of the time OWB. I used to carry IWB, but the extra room in my pants has been taken up by my big butt.

If you take the "train as you fight" mentality to the extreme, as some people like to do, it becomes nonsense. In general you should train as you intend to fight, but we make exceptions all the time for safety or other reasons. As long as you can keep your mind engaged, IWB or OWB won't make a bit of difference. No go shoot straight.
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Old 02-19-2009, 08:50 PM
litman252 litman252 is offline
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Most around here use OWB for IDPA, it's been awhile since I shot it (IPSC now) but several don't don't use cover garmets. Of course, we don't have CCW so it's all fun or............... something for serious people????

Fun and relaxed for the most part.

Tony
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:09 PM
Goldstar225 Goldstar225 is offline
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I have IWB and OWB holsters, the grip is positioned the same for both. Think I'll miss my grip? Not likely.

I carry a Glock 23, a 1911 and a 642, even though these are different weapon designs I've never tried to reload the 642 by jamming a speed strip in the butt of the grip or short stroked the trigger thinking that it's a Glock or 1911.

On-duty the Glock is in a security holster, off-duty it's carried in an open top IWB or thumbreak OWB. The 1911 rides in either an open top IWB or OWB. The 642 in a Mika pocket holster.

Strangely enough I've never failed to use the correct technique to access my weapon. Yes that includes some ah, "stressful" situations.

Some times people get so obsessed with having the "one true way" that they can't see that other methods and techniques work and work well.
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Old 02-19-2009, 10:49 PM
Mus Mus is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Burke View Post
Exactly. It's also a safety issue if you discover you need to retuck your shirt while your gun is in your hand.
Ive had this happen to me. I tuck my shirt into my underwear during classes now, which works great, even though its dorky.



As far as the difference between OWB vs IWB, for me at least carrying OWB changes the way I grip the gun because the gun is further away from my body whereas in an IWB its really close to the body. I only changed to IWB within the last year and am training with my IWB holster thus far.

I have not experienced the gun getting too hot for comfort in my IWB holster yet, as BillD mentioned, but havent exceeded 500-600 rounds of 9mm in a day.

Last edited by Mus; 02-20-2009 at 03:20 AM.
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  #23  
Old 02-19-2009, 10:54 PM
Ben B. Ben B. is offline
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It's only dorky if you show up without your pants.

Long tailed shirts help too, I try to pick out a few XLT shirts for "gun game days".
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Old 02-19-2009, 10:57 PM
R_CRUZ R_CRUZ is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ben B. View Post
Might be a classifier, no cover garment required on the classifier.
You got that right. I should have done more research on the subject. It seems that everyone and their mother post a video on You Tube about their performance in the classifier. I ran another search with just "IDPA" and finally saw more people drawing from concealment. There were vests all over the place.

Maybe I am bias because I abhor those vests. IMO, only IDPA gamers wear vests (unless that is actually the way you carry, of course).
Gamers are in every gun sport. Down here we have lots of IPSC shooters with "Production" guns that are actually Standard or Open guns (i.e, fiber optics and adjustable sights, griptape all over the gun, all the internals replaced with aftermarket parts, hair triggers, reloaded ammo that barely knocks a steel plate, etc.). They claim that IPSC has given the nod to those modifications. IMO, once you start swapping parts here and there, the gun no longer belongs to the Production Division. I just started to rant again , I should stay away from coffee for once and for all. As you can see I dislike "Production" gamers as well. It seems that all the gun games rely more on equipment than the shooter's abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben B. View Post
BTW, have you shot in an IDPA?
There used to be an IDPA club in PR, but it ceased to exist. I only shot at three matches. IPSC shooters were always on top of everyone else. We adhered to the IPDA rules, we followed all the stage procedures, and we all draw from concealment. No vests, thank you. We saw the IDPA matches as just another IPSC match, just with different rules, like I mentioned before.

On a side note, let us go back to subject or start another thread .

Last edited by R_CRUZ; 02-20-2009 at 04:11 AM. Reason: add italics
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  #25  
Old 02-20-2009, 07:39 AM
WalterGC WalterGC is offline
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Originally Posted by BillD View Post
I disagree.
We're just expressing opinions here, Bill, One mantra is that you act like you train in stress situations, yet, here, guys who want to justify the $$$ that they spend at the training schools say that you don't REALLY have to train the same way that you'd carry daily.

Fortunately, the chances of any of us having to actually use a firearm in s.d. are somewhere between infinitesimal and zero, but probably closer to zero, so we aren't likely to get any reports here that would resolve this question.

Maybe my situation's just a little different from most of you guys' situations. I carry IWB @ around 11 o'clock. I wouldn't carry OWB in the same location.

I've always thought that mindset was probably a huge factor in successfully defending oneself. I have so little regard for the lives of society's predators and parasites, that I'd never waste a nanosecond contemplating the consequences of my having to use a firearm in a case of s.d. My goal, should I be attacked, is to kill the guy(s) attacking me...and a noble goal it is, in my humble opinion.
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Last edited by WalterGC; 02-20-2009 at 07:42 AM.
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