Hand to Hand defense? - Page 4 - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #76  
Old 01-13-2009, 01:13 AM
imightbewrong imightbewrong is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 236
Like a good few of you here, I am a trained martial artist. I've worked with Kung Fu, Aikido, Taekwondo, Boxing, Muay Thai, and a form of wrestling known as Catch-as-Catch-Can which can be compared to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which I plan on taking up soon.

My rankings are as follows:

Kung Fu: My school has no ranking system and follows the traditions of the Shaolin Temple almost perfectly. You get a black or yellow sash from the very start and keep it, never changing colors or anything. I have 7 years of CMA (Chinese Martial Arts/Kung Fu) experience now.

Aikido: I achieved what is known as 3rd Kyu in Shin-Shin-Toitsu style Aikido. Aikido has a unique ranking system, and only has 2 belt colors - white and black. If you have a white belt, you are one of the Kyu Rankings. The lowest rank is 5th Kyu, and as you rise in rank you make it to the number 1, in which you become a 1st Dan, or black belt, and then continue to 2nd dan and on as a sort of "degree" of black belt. 3rd Dan is not difficult to achieve, but takes some time regardless and requires a fair knowledge of techniques and proper footwork.

Taekwondo: I left at "Camouflage Belt", which was the fourth rank. Taekwondo did not keep me interested when I compared it to other styles I had previously worked with.

Boxing: There is no ranking system in boxing. I have 2 years experience in it, but have never competed outside of my own old gym.

Muay Thai: Again, no ranking system in my old gym, and never competed. A bit less than a year of experience, which I wish I could pick up from and continue.

CACC Wrestling: Also known as Catch, another sport style of fighting with no ranking system. Almost perfectly mimmicks the groundwork of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, but with less focus on proper positioning before a submission. It also incorporates more takedowns and takedown defenses.

To review the following arts fully would require quite a bit of reading on all of your parts, but I have to say that by FAR the most valuable styles I practiced were the last 3 mentioned: Boxing, Muay Thai, and CACC. The fact is that most styles (i.e. taekwondo, aikido, etc...) do not practice full contact sparring, but forms of light touch sparring. In Aikido, we had what was called "Randori" which was "freestyle sparring" where an opponent (or multiple) would mindlessly run at you and try to grab you, and you would unbalance and throw them. The problem with this sort of sparring is that, for one, a real attacker will not mindlessly try to grab you and shake you around, but strike, push, shove, and do anything to try to seriously injure you. They will NOT be compliant when you perform a technique on them, and in light forms of sparring, or point sparring, your opponent is almost always compliant. When practicing compliant drills, you have no idea what techniques will and will not work because you can not WATCH them work against another opponent who is genuinely trying to hurt you. This makes sport fighting the most efficient form of self defense from my point of view, because sparring in a boxing/kickboxing/wrestling school is usually full contact and HARSH, and both fighters are genuinely trying to use whatever they can within their rule sets to win. This allows a fighter to see what works and what does not. Also, a blessing of these arts, is that all of the techniques from Taekwondo (kicks and such) that are really, truly, fully applicable can be learned in muay thai or some form of kickboxing and then used full contact, and all of the techniques in Aikido or Hapkido (which are extremely close) that are easily applied and highly effective can be found in some form or another in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or CACC or even Sambo. For those who want a bit of everything, Krav Maga is a form that tosses aspects of all forms of martial arts together for combat purposes, including weapons. Also, for those of you who practice Kali, you're in a great spot for learning to use knives or eskrima (which applies to ASP batons quite well!), so pat yourselves on the back. While EVERY martial art serves as a great form of exercise and any martial arts experience is beneficial in unarmed combat, training methods are extremely important, which makes methods of sport fighting the best (in my opinion) form of self defense around.

This is just a quick little opinion of mine after the experience I've had in the world of martial arts. If anybody here is looking for a form of self defense and is wondering about the styles available to them where they live, feel free to ask me any questions you like. Chances are, any art you can name I've heard of with the exception of REALLY obscure ones. I can tell you the ups and downs of plenty, as well as about my personal favorites in a very objective manner. Just toss me a pm.

Peace.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 01-13-2009, 06:47 AM
CelticWarrior13 CelticWarrior13 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,679
Quote:
CKM is definetly an effective system but it was designed for the streets of civilized areas and not for the battle field. the entire strategy is to create space and disengage, while this legally, is the best point of few to have, and not denying the CKM practitioners lack the ability to finish a conflict, in real combat, creating space without a firearm is simply giving the enemy another chance to level the playing field.
Don't know what you learned or where you learned/who you studied with...but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one my friend?
__________________
Disclaimer: The writer does not represent any organization, employer, entity or other individual. The views expressed are those only of the writer. In the case of a sarcastic, facetious, nonsensical, stirring-the-pot, controversial or devil's advocate-type post, the views expressed may not even reflect those of the writer [This sig stolen from That Guy who stole it from Brickcop who stole it from Frank Booth].
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 01-20-2009, 05:13 AM
bnbrown24 bnbrown24 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: taylor mill ky
Age: 39
Posts: 101
I thought a belt no matter if it was red,blue or black,could only at best could only cover two inchs of your ass
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 01-20-2009, 04:31 PM
imightbewrong imightbewrong is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by bnbrown24 View Post
I thought a belt no matter if it was red,blue or black,could only at best could only cover two inchs of your ass
Belts have 2 purposes: Holding up your pants and being used to make you keep paying a little extra money now and then.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 01-20-2009, 06:08 PM
EvenStephen EvenStephen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Age: 73
Posts: 965
I'm in great shape for 62 but I'm still 62. I have little fighting experience and no martial arts training. I wanted to claim a black belt in egg foo yung but someone beat me to that line. My son competes pretty regularly in karate tournaments, including the U.S. Open, where I've seen an awful lot of people who could kick my ass into the middle of next week. I'd use my fists if I thought I had a reasonable chance of success. Otherwise I'll rely on my two friends, Smith & Wesson.
__________________
Stephen

NRA Benefactor Life Member

www.sarasohn.net
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 01-20-2009, 10:02 PM
ERDocnshooter ERDocnshooter is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 39
I have trained in unarmed fighting off and on most of my life, except when injured. Most of todays schools of Martial Arts are heavy on the ART, business, sport or socially accepted training. I wanted to bring in an outsided instructor at the last "school" I was working out in and the lead instructor/owner was more concerned about her liability if we taught techniques that could kill someone. The Martial has been taken out of the equation. That said if one looks one can find training of that mindset. Richard Ryan with Dynamic Combat Method is a great guy and someone I trained with. In addition John Hutchison one of his instructors is an expert at weapons retention and use of force in up close encounters. If you are carrying and get in an up close and personal confrontation not only are you in it for the fight but now you have to consider what is going to happen to your weapon and will you be able to get to it or will it be take away or whatever the scenario. Perhaps the greatest lesson learned from all of my training is how to be aware of, avoid and get out of dangerous situations or de escalation and then evasion of the threat. Hope this helps.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 01-21-2009, 03:41 PM
CelticWarrior13 CelticWarrior13 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,679
Quote:
If you are carrying and get in an up close and personal confrontation not only are you in it for the fight but now you have to consider what is going to happen to your weapon and will you be able to get to it or will it be take away or whatever the scenario.
This is why we tell (and train) our folks that every encounter they are involved in is a "gun encounter"...theirs!
__________________
Disclaimer: The writer does not represent any organization, employer, entity or other individual. The views expressed are those only of the writer. In the case of a sarcastic, facetious, nonsensical, stirring-the-pot, controversial or devil's advocate-type post, the views expressed may not even reflect those of the writer [This sig stolen from That Guy who stole it from Brickcop who stole it from Frank Booth].
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 02-06-2009, 10:44 AM
ROLX51 ROLX51 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 49
Belt?

Screw the belts use a seecamp 380
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 02-11-2009, 12:17 PM
Earp Earp is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kettering, Ohio
Posts: 120
Some funny posts.

I used to hold a 3rd Dan in TKD, but that was many years ago. I'm 50 now, and have generally let myself go after being in solid good shape most of my life. My kicks are gone, but can still throw good strikes. I know a handful of wicked choke holds that I learned from a Hapkido Master.

At this stage in the game, anything I know or can still do will be for most part worthless against an opponent who is probably going to be younger than me, be in better physical shape, predisposed to plain meanness (evil), has real life street fighting experience, and will in all liklihood have a slight tactical advantage -- which is something aggressors natually possess. I have a good chance of surviving an encounter if I get a first strike to the throat or can execute a choke hold once on the floor or ground -- I said "if".

The handgun is the great equalizer. If a pycho advances on me I have no interest in going into Bruce Lee mode -- those days are over.
__________________
Don't confuse tactics with the will to execute.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 02-12-2009, 01:57 AM
carrygunman carrygunman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 126
Wow. Seems like everybody who responded has some form of MA training. Here's my thoughts. I'm sure some will disagree.

Likewise, I trained pretty seriously for numerous years and hold BB in TKD. Also trained in BBJ but only for a few months. Did wrestle in high school also. I'm 41 years old now.

I think the important thing really isn't the art. You need to be able to adapt what you learned collectivley. I'm sure we all also did some serious sparring outside our respective dojangs or gyms. After practicing awhile, most MA's begin to adapt what they learned to what they believe will be real world encounters. We begin to adapt what we learned to other techniques from other styles and really use what will work individually for each person. There's no art superior to any other. It all comes down to your skill level and mental state at the time of combat.

Therein comes the need for firearms. MA really helps your mind set in preventing combat situations from occurring. But if that situation does occur, and you can't get out of it, I guarantee you no matter how well you are trained, your mind will hit that "blank" state where you will only reactively use the simplicist and basic strikes, punches or kicks. All the fancy stuff will be a waste of time.

You're really better off just learning "dirty street" fighting techniques utilizing just a couple of simple strikes. Simply learn how to punch and kick but attack vital areas . . . adam's apple, base of nose, solar pexis, nuts, and knees. Forgot all the fancy combinations. They don't work. Also, you do need a good foundation on how to accustom yourself if a fight goes to the ground. Which it will. But really, the "one on one" fights that go to the ground can be avoided. Just swallow your pride and walk away . . . unless you can't walk away.

The one's that can't be avoided are the life and death encounters involving multiple attackers and weapons.

That's where my carry weapons, Kimber CDP Pro, Colt Defender, or XD9 come into play. I live in California and CCW due to my job. I'm not LE, but I unfortunately come across more criminals in one week (seriously) then most people do in a lifetime.

Remember, proper mind set will keep you out of most encounters. The only real encounters you can't walk away from really won't need MA. Those will need a gun.

Carry and be safe.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 02-12-2009, 08:08 AM
Earp Earp is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kettering, Ohio
Posts: 120
Good post, I agree with all of it.

Right underneath the nose produces great results if you can land it, the throat is a bigger and somewhat static target.
__________________
Don't confuse tactics with the will to execute.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 02-14-2009, 10:49 AM
MarineJohn MarineJohn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Fresno
Posts: 67
Hand to Hand defense

We do alot of weaponless defense through my Depts training, but so far the best class I have taken that includes hand to hand and weapons training was through Morrigan Consulting. Bill Jeans, the instructor for this course is a former combat Marine from Nam and was a SWAT commander before retiring and working For Colonel Cooper at GunSite. Bill branched off and does training around the country. He offers classes for civilans as well as LEO cloasses. He is by far the best instructor I have had the pleasure to train under.
John
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 02-14-2009, 03:32 PM
jamesp81 jamesp81 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 24
I have a blackbelt in Shotokahn. Martial arts are certainly a good thing, besides giving you an additional option to protect yourself, it's also good for your health and quite fun.

With that said, as long as I have ammo my trust is in the products of John M. Browning and William B. Ruger. But it is nice to know if I do find myself without ammunition, I'm not exactly helpless either. I consider my hand to hand skills to be a complement, not a replacement for, my firearms abilities.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 02-16-2009, 08:47 PM
LS6TT LS6TT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 840
didn't read the whole thread, but im versed in Brazilian Ju Jitsu, Muay Thai, and Kuk Sool Won. To be perfectly honest, if the other person is armed, im not referring to my training, im stoping the threat per the law allows.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 02-17-2009, 01:09 AM
ColtLover ColtLover is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,713
The Feds are all teaching Jujitsu and it has a massive following amongst LEO's for the simple reason that most fights wind up on the ground.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 02-17-2009, 12:12 PM
LS6TT LS6TT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColtLover View Post
The Feds are all teaching Jujitsu and it has a massive following amongst LEO's for the simple reason that most fights wind up on the ground.
Ill never use my BJJ on the ground period, im not about to go to the ground and roll with some guy while his buddy is kicking me.

Military teaches BJJ but thats mainly for the hope that you arnt going to be jumped, that your fellow troops will be close by and possibly doing the same.

Akido is something that officers really should learn, I id it briefly, but it mainly teaches avoidance and control. Great techniques that utilize handcuffs in Akido
__________________
-Alex
Brain Cancer survivor by the grace of God, still fighting and won't stop.
Deuteronomy 31:6
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 02-17-2009, 04:07 PM
St.Michael St.Michael is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 855
Here is something that most people forget. Even if we all trained EVERYDAY with some sort of martial art, don't forget you have to be in good health to actually fight. We should ask does anyone train H2H and actually keep in shape! lol I run into a lot of "porkers" now that are like, "oh I train in this and that" and I just think, yea, but I will run 10 feet down the road and your fat ass will fall over so I win!!!! hahaha.
__________________
Don't think. FEEL. It's like a finger pointing at the moon. Do not concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory!
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 02-17-2009, 04:08 PM
R_CRUZ R_CRUZ is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by ls6tt View Post
Ill never use my BJJ on the ground period, im not about to go to the ground and roll with some guy while his buddy is kicking me.

Military teaches BJJ but thats mainly for the hope that you arnt going to be jumped, that your fellow troops will be close by and possibly doing the same.

Akido is something that officers really should learn, I id it briefly, but it mainly teaches avoidance and control. Great techniques that utilize handcuffs in Akido
A good BJJ school wil teach you lots of Judo throws and take down defense, as well as avoidance and control, before even going to the ground. Ground fighting is the last resort.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 02-17-2009, 04:27 PM
LS6TT LS6TT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by R_CRUZ View Post
A good BJJ school wil teach you lots of Judo throws and take down defense, as well as avoidance and control, before even going to the ground. Ground fighting is the last resort.
very true (hence my Akido comment up above), but BJJ traditional focuses on just that BJJ, my dip into Akido at the BJJ school was a little, mainly cause I dont want a BJJ instructor teaching me Akido or Judo. But there are throws in BJJ similar to Judo if thats what you mean
__________________
-Alex
Brain Cancer survivor by the grace of God, still fighting and won't stop.
Deuteronomy 31:6
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 02-17-2009, 10:28 PM
ZBalentine ZBalentine is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 16
I'm more for the fundamentals of CQB these days..."Suprise, Speed, Violence of Action". Everything else is just a vehicle for the fundamentals. In all of my past training, I think thats the most true.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 03-30-2009, 01:51 AM
roaddog1m roaddog1m is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1.S.1.K View Post
Ok some one had to say it so let it b me bash me all ya want ,
anyone find it funny that every on in this thread has a black belt and studys many arts . im 30 with no bb's i study M.M.A with a 53 year old guy i work with and he can woop my ass ,at least one of us is honest in hear but dont b fooled i can hold my one .
I have to agree with you there! I have a wrestling background and have studied MMA with a little striking through the years. No belts but I've been in at least 40 fights. Many were on some gravel road in the middle of the night near an indian rez. I had no viable choice but to win at all costs. I make my fights short and devistating. The Hollywood high kicks are for television and guys who are fighting with a Ref to save them. When the fight goes to the ground, you better be strong and have some ground skills. I'm 43 years old and the toughtest guys I know are all at least my age but closer to 50. I have a .45, 12ga. and a mean friggin dog and they go to work with me.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 03-31-2009, 02:08 PM
BigHandEd BigHandEd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 1,075
I'm actually not surprised to see the majority of folks here post a higher level of MA skills and attainment. I expected to read these threads and the majority talk like they know what they are talking about...and talk with enough real humility that I believe them.

Look.. I'm 52, 6'1" 215lbs. I own a business that requires me to lift and load all the time...odd shaped rigs from a 60lb guitar amp, to half of a 250lb hammond organ. There's no room for marhmellows in my biz. But I was, in a previous post on this thread, the first to admit that I am older..I don't wear a beer gut.. I'm still in nice shape, but I'm not kidding myself to think that I've got the stamina to hang in there with a violent 20 something.
I do have a home gym setup that helps me keep in good nuff shape for the sole purpose of protecting my body. If you aren't in shape, then lifting will hurt you bad and fast.
I don't practice MA any more..haven't been interested in it for years..interested is a misleading word. I like it, but not to the point where i'm ready to spend hours every week. As a result, there's little in my arsenal that would come into play during an actual encounter. And if I didn't make it count early on..then I know I'd be in trouble seconds into the scuffle.
I would never consider MA/less leathal as an option...it's something I might be able to use to either escape or get to my gun..not something to win a fight and put the bad guy down.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 03-31-2009, 08:11 PM
GTWDY69 GTWDY69 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Northen Va.
Age: 55
Posts: 5
I have some exp. in some different styles of fighting. Krav Maga by some of the Mossad we had as an exchange.SEAL hand to hand. SeaBee in bars. I was in Spec War and NMCB4 in the Navy and was basically just taught about the vulnerable areas (what to hit)and to strike immediately(or sooner). The theory is, do what ever nessecary to stop a BG. Most fights I have been in were over very quickly, but I see it is getting worse. Nowadays, when someone gets their ass kicked, they don't,won't or can't let it go. I actually fear getting into a fight. I am 45 and don't want to get that physical. HUH...45 with a .45, sorry, I just thought that was funny. Anyway, point is, FIGHT TO SURVIVE, period. Everyone kinda knows what hurts like a bitch when you get hit there. Those are the places you want to hit. Something else to ponder is your mindset. THE proper mindset can make a huge difference in how things play out in a fight.Anyhow , I enjoy the post and the forum.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 03-31-2009, 10:12 PM
ancient_serpent ancient_serpent is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 630
I train in Krav, really enjoy it. Very business-like, no unneccesary movements. When I was SRT in Korea I got to take Hapido from a nutty old Korean guy, lotta fun. Also messed around with some basic kendo techniques. Got certified as an Army Non-lethal weapons instructor, they do a little basic H2H stuff (enough to get ya hurt). In college one of my buddies was really into Tae Kwondo (spelling?) and I practiced with him as often as I could. Never liked it too much though. When I was in HS I took Ishynryu (spelling?) karate.

Some points others may or may not have already addressed:
-Physical fitness is crucial to surviving. being fit and solid helps win fights. Don't skimp on anaerobic exercise
-mental prep.
-keeping techniques simple. fine motor control goes quick when adrinaline is pumping and you're scared.
-awareness.
__________________
In Memory of CPL Jessica Ellis, Baghdad, 2008 101st Airborne Division, Air Assault.
My friend, you will never be forgotten.

Last edited by ancient_serpent; 03-31-2009 at 10:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 04-01-2009, 04:25 AM
gunfighter48 gunfighter48 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Mill Creek, WA
Posts: 662
I'm 61 and have 2 bad knees, bad back, bad hips and one bad shoulder. Hand to hand is not a option for me. I still remember a couple of hand to hand methods from my Army days but they are a last resort type of thing for me. A sharp blow to my chest of rib cage could result in my death within 10 to 20 minutes, rare medical condition.

If someone is within physical striking distance of you, you have already violated a cardinal rule of self defense. No one should get closer than 20 ft, distance equals survival. Surprise attach equals me drawing down on someone. They will have to kill me with the first blow cause they won't get a second chance! Survival attitude has a whole lot to do with who survives a fight, the will to live usually wins in the end. At least that's my take on self defense. YMMV
__________________
gunfighter48
A 45 may not expand but it will never be smaller than .45!!
NRA Benefactor Life Member
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:18 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved