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  #1  
Old 02-16-2009, 06:42 PM
bellyscraper bellyscraper is offline
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What gun and what movie?

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  #2  
Old 02-16-2009, 06:47 PM
granitemonkey granitemonkey is offline
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HK USP .45 ACP. Movie is Collateral (2004).
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  #3  
Old 02-16-2009, 06:56 PM
zdragon52 zdragon52 is offline
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Michael Mann(Miami Vice creator)directed "collectoral" with Tom Cruise and Jamie Foxx.
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  #4  
Old 02-16-2009, 08:44 PM
bl4ckwellNYC bl4ckwellNYC is offline
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That was the best Tom Cruise movie imo, that was before he got all scientology crazy =[
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  #5  
Old 02-16-2009, 09:03 PM
R_CRUZ R_CRUZ is offline
 
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The night club shoot out is pretty cool.

Have you watched the DVD features? There is a complete section of gun handling and the training done by the actors.
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  #6  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:00 PM
Shad Roe Shad Roe is offline
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Is the HK USP the one with a grip-safety disengage(front of grip)?

IIRC,the first target got an extra-insurance salvo after second target received his three rounds.

Were the first two shots done with one hand;then he shoots with both?

Just wondering what his left hand(after he punches offensive gun out of his face) is doing on the first two shots?

Doesn't look like he uses his left hand to throw back his jacket. He must put a few extra rounds or mag. in jacket pocket,strong side, a la G. Gordon Liddy & Co.

See how heavy the R jacket pocket swings?

He wanted that briefcase back pretty badly. I'm sure his actions could be picked apart;but,it was an exciting scene for the movie. Tom's got more moves than a Swiss-watch. Why not show them off?
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  #7  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:22 PM
zdragon52 zdragon52 is offline
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the double tap shoot out in the street alley was even better.
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  #8  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:29 PM
maximus83 maximus83 is offline
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The dialog between Cruise and Fox in the cab was almost worth the price of the movie.
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  #9  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:40 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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After watching the clip over and over, you notice that Cruise deflects BG#1's gun with a clockwise sweep, bringing his weak hand dangerously close to the line of fire. And you see BG#2 fumbling his own draw to wait for the shots from Cruise, so that wasn't quite fast enough.
The DVD's extras show the scene being filmed. And although Cruise's weak hand is hidden by his body when he shoots BG#1, you clearly see it meet the other hand at the moment of the 1st shot on BG#2, when Cruise turns to him.
Since the move was taught by that ex-SAS guy Mick Gould, I suppose it's hard to criticize. But if the weak hand wasn't going to be used for 2-handed fire, why not sweep counter-clockwise and avoid risking shooting his own hand?
I also have my doubts about hitmen walking around with holsters and double mag pouches on their belts, but it's just a movie. We're supposed to perceive him as a formally-trained "pro".
Oh, and yes, as Cruise walks away from the 2 downed BG's, he fires a "coup de grace" into the 1st one w/o even looking...Again, some of the stuff done in the movies, as much as directors like Michael Mann claim realism, is to "establish character" and entertain, rather than be truthful.
Regardless of all we can come up with from behind our keyboards, though, it looks great on film and Cruise is probably one of the few actors able to pull it off convincingly. I also enjoyed the club scene.
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  #10  
Old 02-17-2009, 07:17 AM
CelticWarrior13 CelticWarrior13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael cameron View Post
Is the HK USP the one with a grip-safety disengage(front of grip)?

IIRC,the first target got an extra-insurance salvo after second target received his three rounds.

Were the first two shots done with one hand;then he shoots with both?

Just wondering what his left hand(after he punches offensive gun out of his face) is doing on the first two shots?

Doesn't look like he uses his left hand to throw back his jacket. He must put a few extra rounds or mag. in jacket pocket,strong side, a la G. Gordon Liddy & Co.
See how heavy the R jacket pocket swings?

He wanted that briefcase back pretty badly. I'm sure his actions could be picked apart;but,it was an exciting scene for the movie. Tom's got more moves than a Swiss-watch. Why not show them off?
In my suitcoats and concealment garments I would have weight sewn into the pockets to assist in clearing when sweeping back.


[QUOTEyou notice that Cruise deflects BG#1's gun with a clockwise sweep, bringing his weak hand dangerously close to the line of fire. ][/QUOTE]

Sometimes in real world encounters these things happen and sometimes your plans don't work out as you'd like. I'd much rather take a round in the hand or arm and survive than not (I'd rather not take a round at all of course!)
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  #11  
Old 02-17-2009, 07:56 AM
Seraph Seraph is offline
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Looks to me like he brings his left hand back into his chest after deflecting Homey's gun.
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  #12  
Old 02-17-2009, 11:42 AM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Real life is real life and all the rules go out the window except for the need to prevail, I agree. We're looking at a very popular clip from a movie made by a super-anal director who sends his actors to school for any technical aspect in the pursuit of realism. Every one of Cruise's moves was set up by a former soldier who is making a career as a movie industry consultant (Heat, Miami Vice). Hence my nit-picking.
I was responding to michael cameron's post, but I think the OP's question has been more than answered. That was a good movie with some pretty exciting stuff, as usual from Mann.
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  #13  
Old 02-18-2009, 10:38 AM
JColdIron JColdIron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11,43mm View Post
But if the weak hand wasn't going to be used for 2-handed fire, why not sweep counter-clockwise and avoid risking shooting his own hand?
.
In my limited experience, I think that the muscles involved in the clockwise sweep work better against the agressors stance and pistol grip. It also puts him in a better place for the second guy. Looks like Cruise might also have a slight left foot lead when he starts. The clockwise LH swing puts him in motion in a way that allows him to deal with #1 and then #2 the fastest.

If he went counter clockwise the the LH his body/hips would have to rotate to the left to get power behind the swing. The muscles moving the arm to the outside (tricep and scapula) are not as strong as the ones that go to center (pectorials) This would also turn his Rt flank to #2 at a bad time.

Last edited by JColdIron; 02-18-2009 at 10:38 AM. Reason: speeeling
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  #14  
Old 02-18-2009, 11:54 AM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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JColdIron, you make good points and I thought about the fact one would have more strength sweeping in than out. But clockwise, you not only bring your weak hand in your own LOF as you're drawing to place the near contact shot, but also making the BG's gun flag you as you deflect his hand. What if he fired? I would rather get that gun out of my face and open up his torso for my shots.
We're really splitting hairs at this point, though, critiquing what is only an actor's move, as coached as he was.
In the DVD extra, when you see the scene being blocked, Cruise reaches for his gun before deflecting the BG's gun, telegraphing his intentions to both scumbags.
I haven't trained extensively in CQB either, but that specific scene made me really think about how I would handle 2 BG's this close, one of them armed. Lucky for Cruise's character that BG#2 hadn't drawn his gun yet.
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  #15  
Old 02-18-2009, 12:42 PM
zdragon52 zdragon52 is offline
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correct me if i'm wrong....i think Cruise plays the BG(villain) in the movie.
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  #16  
Old 02-18-2009, 12:48 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zdragon52 View Post
correct me if i'm wrong....i think Cruise plays the BG(villain) in the movie.
Hard to argue with that. Most of us probably identified with him during that scene, though.
If you haven't seen the movie, he's a hitman and the 2 guys in the clip just stole the briefcase containing vital intel on his next hits. That's why he's not letting them get away with it. Plus he's a real badass...
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  #17  
Old 02-18-2009, 01:05 PM
zdragon52 zdragon52 is offline
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i would never miss any Michael Mann films.....i.e. "thief" with James Caan,
"last of the Mohigans", "Manhunters"(original Silence of the lamb)with William Petersen, "Miami Vice" with Colin farrel...etc etc.
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  #18  
Old 02-18-2009, 01:40 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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I hope we're not too off-topic, but I hear you on Mann's films: what about "Heat", huh? Fantastic bank shootout.
If you're gun savvy you still notice errors, as when Jim Zubiena tells William Petersen that Glasers are a "one-shot-stop - guaranteed" in "Manhunter". You can tell in the loving close-ups of press-checks and some of the dialogue that Mann has done his homework. In the end it comes across a little showy, IMO, especially when some of the stuff isn't exactly right.
I still like his movies: they have a non-Hollywood quality to them. The action is very business-like and as realistic as it gets for the screen, I guess.
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  #19  
Old 02-18-2009, 01:40 PM
Neal.45 Neal.45 is offline
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It makes my day to see M. Mann getting some kind words...he is one of the best. Vice, Manhunter, LA Takedown, Heat, Killateral, etc etc... a real stickler for detail. Vice is kind of silly to watch these days, but for the mid 80's it was light years ahead of it's time. Oh, BTW, I have USP 45 ala Killateral and S-W 645/S-W 4506 thanks to Vice/Mann!!!!
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  #20  
Old 02-18-2009, 01:55 PM
zdragon52 zdragon52 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11,43mm View Post
I hope we're not too off-topic, but I hear you on Mann's films: what about "Heat", huh? Fantastic bank shootout.

I still like his movies: they have a non-Hollywood quality to them. The action is very business-like and as realistic as it gets for the screen, I guess.

"HEAT" of course sets the standard for action movie shootout scenes just like "Bullit" set the standard for car chase scenes in hollywood.
"HEAT" also inspired two north hollywood bank robbers in real life.

Mann's films utilize real gunfire in his movies vs fake synthesized sound effects in those Bond films.
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  #21  
Old 02-18-2009, 02:06 PM
Hitman_47 Hitman_47 is offline
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Mann's attention to detail is unmatched and his desire to work with Mick Gould has proven invaluable. BTW, Gould was the technical advisor/combat specialist for the recently released "Taken". Gould worked with Cruise for several months getting Cruise to handle himself like his character would. Even the backstory of Cruise's character, "Vincent" was never seen or elaborated upon in the theatrical release. Gould is former SAS and they have their way of doing things although some of it may not be consistent with the way American law enforcement and military prefer to do things. It's "a way" not "the way" so take it for what it's worth. Many of us talk about what we would do and how we would do it but how many of you talking about what you'd do have been in exactly that same situation and were able to execute your moves according to plan? Mr. Murphy often has a way of changing your plans. I know from my experience that many of the arrests that I've been involved in, didn't go anything like we practiced in class. You improvise, adapt and overcome, right? **** happens, etc. (like "Vincent" explains to "Max").

If you have the dvd of the movie, "Miami Vice", watch it with the director's commentary turned "on". The final gunfight at the dock yard is interesting from a tactical point of view in that Mann explains the tactics involved in countering the L shaped ambush that was heaped upon them.

Other technical advisors that deserve recognition for their contributions to keepin it real in Hollywood land are Doug McQuarrie (tech advisor for "Way of The Gun" and a member of the "Teams") and Harry Humphries ("Black Hawk Down", "Tears of the Sun").

Ultimately the director has the say on the final cut but it's admirable to see when the technical advisor and the director can deliver a scene as close to reality as possible, something that Gould & Mann have been able to do time and time again.
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  #22  
Old 02-18-2009, 02:18 PM
zdragon52 zdragon52 is offline
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for those who still haven't seen "taken"(currently playing in theaters)....this is the movie to watch if you go to theaters only once a year.

the following is what imdb.com has to say about Mick Gould...

"The fighting art used by Liam Neeson in the film is primarily Filipino Kali with elements of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. Both fighting arts are in use in British Special Air Service (SAS) as well as US Navy Seals. Fight Coordinator/Technical Advisor Mick Gould is highly skilled in both".
imdb.com
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  #23  
Old 02-18-2009, 02:24 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Hitman_47, I hope nobody in this thread is coming across as some Rambo who thinks he'd handle himself better. We're just discussing movies from the comfort of our armchairs, after all.
Since you brought up "Miami Vice", I thought a lot of planning was done for that final shootout, but that Mann somewhat failed to translate it to the screen. Unlike the "Heat" scene, which had absolute clarity in its chain of events (of course it helped that it was daytime), that last ambush was a little confusing to me. I only clearly understood what Mann was trying to do from the DVD extras. If only the pros know what you're showing, there's a pb. "Miami Vice" wasn't very successful, and there might have been other reasons than the total lack of chemistry between Gong Li and Colin Farrell.
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  #24  
Old 02-18-2009, 02:32 PM
Hitman_47 Hitman_47 is offline
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Originally Posted by 11,43mm View Post
Hitman_47, I hope nobody in this thread is coming across as some Rambo who thinks he'd handle himself better. We're just discussing movies from the comfort of our armchairs, after all.
Roger that 11,43mm. Didn't mean to sound like a bitch.
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  #25  
Old 02-18-2009, 02:33 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Now responding to zdragon52. "Taken" is a very enjoyable little movie. But it suffers from Liam Neeson's lack of physical skills. Regardless of Gould's creds or training ability, I don't think there was much he could do there. Most of the action was shot very close up and blurry (smart), so you couldn't really tell what moves were used. Typical of what happens when actors - not martial artists do the fighting. At one point the camera is far back enough that you can see Neeson run on an overpass trying to catch that French scumbag: the man can't move, I'm sorry.
And if you look at the BG's on the yacht (finale), well don't look too closely at the way they grip their pistols. Would real BG's look like idiots? Sure, but why hire Mick Gould, then?
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