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  #1  
Old 01-12-2003, 05:51 PM
OcabJ OcabJ is offline
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Rock Island Armory slide stamped Armscor

I purchased a Rock Island Armory 1911 (MilSpec) from a local dealer. When I picked it up and inspected it I took it home. When I got it home, I realized
that the slide says "Armscor". My DROS paperwork is for a Rock Island
Armory.

I know that Armscor has something to do with the manufacturing and/or
importation of Rock Island Armory. So do I have a Rock Island or do I have
an Armscor.

And if it is in fact an Armscor, is this something I need to take to the
state DoJ since my DROS paperwork specifies I was purchasing a Rock Island
Armory 1911

I emailed the rep listed on the Rock Island Armory website the same question
too, but wanted to hear from the board members since I don't expect an email
from the rep till tomorrow (Monday).

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 01-12-2003, 07:41 PM
thesenator
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Rock Island Armory

If you bought and paid for a "Rock Island Armory" .45 the thats what you should have.
If you bought a Remington shotgun and were handed another gun made by the same company...its not what you bought.
I'd return it and get the gun I paid for or get a refund and buy from someone else.
Sounds like a bait and switch to me, and I'd return it.
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  #3  
Old 01-12-2003, 09:08 PM
bulm5 bulm5 is offline
 
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Don't think it has anything to do withthe slide. Look at your frame and see what it says.
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  #4  
Old 01-12-2003, 09:09 PM
bulm5 bulm5 is offline
 
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RIAS are made by Armscor.
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  #5  
Old 01-13-2003, 03:20 AM
thesenator
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Quote:
Originally posted by bulm5
RIAS are made by Armscor.
They may be, but the appearance of the gun is completely different when one name instead of another is rolled onto the broadside of the slide.
Its like buying a car with a different color paint, or buying a rifle with different stock.
Mine say "Rock Island Armory".....not Armscor. Sounds like they're using up parts to make guns then selling them as something they are not.
I'd send one back if it came to me that way...in a minute.
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  #6  
Old 01-19-2003, 09:31 AM
Eric Larsen
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Depends on what you really want...the Armscor on the slide doesnt change the gun one bit. Charles Daly/RIA/EAA 1911's and others are all made by Armscor. The only difference in this and other RIA's guns is ...the words on the slide.
Its just a matter of opinion.
Shoot well
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  #7  
Old 01-20-2003, 02:03 PM
thesenator
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Certainly changes the appearance

Quote:
Originally posted by Eric Larsen
Depends on what you really want...the Armscor on the slide doesnt change the gun one bit. Charles Daly/RIA/EAA 1911's and others are all made by Armscor. The only difference in this and other RIA's guns is ...the words on the slide.
Its just a matter of opinion.
Shoot well
Granted, it may not effect the function, but would you buy a car that had a different colored paint than you ordered?
Would you buy a suit in a color you didn't order?
Why would one accept a gun that says one brand name on it when one was anticipating getting one with a different brand name.

Would you buy a Corvette that said Volkswagon on the side or would you want the real factory emblem of the type?

Its a matter of taste and gettinng what you want.
I wouldn't accept it...it's not what was expected.
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  #8  
Old 01-20-2003, 05:24 PM
hipowr hipowr is offline
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Yeah, but people buy Chevy's that are Toyota's all the time. They also have bought Ford's that are Mazda's as well as Mazda's that are Ford's. Its just a manufacturer's mark on the gun. Its still an RIA assembled by RIA. All this, plus its only an RIA, its not like someone represented that its a Wilson or a Baer or something. You bought a budget gun at a budget price knowing it was built with Phillipino parts. The fact that its marked Armscor shouldn't make one whit of difference...

later,
AJ
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  #9  
Old 02-09-2003, 03:10 PM
thesenator
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I respectfully disagree

Quote:
Originally posted by hipowr
Yeah, but people buy Chevy's that are Toyota's all the time. They also have bought Ford's that are Mazda's as well as Mazda's that are Ford's. Its just a manufacturer's mark on the gun. Its still an RIA assembled by RIA. All this, plus its only an RIA, its not like someone represented that its a Wilson or a Baer or something. You bought a budget gun at a budget price knowing it was built with Phillipino parts. The fact that its marked Armscor shouldn't make one whit of difference...

later,
AJ
Many if not most people buy cars on appearance and from vague research done on some website, or by simple reference from a friend or trusted confidant. I know ZERO persons that would ever accept a car that had two doors when they ordered 4 or 4 when they ordered a 2 dr. Nor would they accept a different color than they ordered, nor any other omission of accessories or features.
Your argument of Chevy's that are Toyotas, and Fords that are Mazdas is ludicrous at best. The outward appearance is how the cars are marketed and not the mechanical intracacies of the drivetrains.
If the man ordered a ROCK ISLAND ARMORY pistol, thats exactly what should be stamped on the face of the slide, NOT ARMSCOR.
The appearance of the gun is of great im[portance in its resaleability, its overall appeal, and its value. Budget gun or not its not what was represented and not what was recieved.
The pictures DON'T show ARMSCOR...they show ROCK ISLAND ARMORY. Though they are made in the same plant, their appearance is totally different.
If you odered a stainless Wilson gun with a stainless frame and it came with a blued one, would you accept it? Doubtful. If it had different hammer or trigger would you accept it? doubtful
If you orderd rear cocking serrations only and it came with front ones cut into it would you accept it? Doubtful.
Why?? Because the gun would not look the same with any of these features if you didn't order them specifically.
If you bought an M1 carbine that was advertised as a Plainfield and you were shipped a Universal..would you accept it? No, why ?
Because its not what was advertised and not what you paid for...but its still an M1 carbine.
Budget gun or not it's a clear case of a bait and switch and the company and the dealer should own up to it and make the man whole by a refund or the correct slide markings.
Why can't a customer get what he ordered and paid for without someone trying to pull the wool over his eyes?
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  #10  
Old 02-10-2003, 02:38 PM
ranger ranger is offline
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Hey Senator, I have to respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

It's not a case of 4 doors instead of 2.

Nothing about the gun is ANY different, except for a few imprinted stampings. Apparently the pistol is exactly what he ordered. Only the name stamped is the original maker's name, not the name of the marketing company.

It's not like Rock Island Armory has a great reputation or long history, it's just a made-up name. My understanding is they sell them as ARMSCORS in the Philippines, not Rock Island.

According to the SARCO web-site they've stopped making them as Rock Islands in any case.

But since they're certified in CA (as ARMSCORs), maybe the manufacturer will just change the name and keep selling them.
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  #11  
Old 02-10-2003, 02:45 PM
lcazes lcazes is offline
 
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This sounds like a non isuue to me! You ordered a gun made by Armscor and thats what you got.......
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  #12  
Old 02-10-2003, 03:33 PM
thesenator
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RE:Well I'll respectfully disagree with your

Quote:
Originally posted by ranger
Hey Senator, I have to respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

It's not a case of 4 doors instead of 2.

Nothing about the gun is ANY different, except for a few imprinted stampings. Apparently the pistol is exactly what he ordered. Only the name stamped is the original maker's name, not the name of the marketing company.

It's not like Rock Island Armory has a great reputation or long history, it's just a made-up name. My understanding is they sell them as ARMSCORS in the Philippines, not Rock Island.

According to the SARCO web-site they've stopped making them as Rock Islands in any case.

But since they're certified in CA (as ARMSCORs), maybe the manufacturer will just change the name and keep selling them.
respectful disagreement.

In your own words..."EXCEPT FOR A FEW IMPRINTED STAMPINGS"

I fully realize that the RIA is made by ARMCOR. I further acknowledge the fact that the guns are probably if not surely made on the same machines. Made up name or not, same performance or not, sold in the Phillipines or Kalifonia as ARMSCOR or not, It still does not say "ROCK ISLAND ARMORY" on the side of the slide. This is what the customer "ORDERED". It is NOT what he GOT. He wanted the gun to say ROCK ISLAND ARMORY....not ARMSCOR. What part of this do you not understand?
The appearance and markings on a gun make a big difference to many when it comes time to buy or sell a gun. Regardless of the brand or type. Look at K-98 Mausers! Tool marks, factory stampings, dents, dings, model numbers, quality of engraving, quality of stampings, fit and finish, completeness of finish, brightness of finish(especially bluing) and others have a great impact on a guns saleability.
I know we are not talking a rare or very expensive item here, but it is simple principle. The customer ordered one thing, and got another. I dont care if the gun said "pop gun" on the side...its NOT what the customer ordered.
If all 1911s were made to gov. specs then why are certain guns more expensive than others. They are all 1911s, they all passed the inspections to be put into service by Gov.org, but they command vastly different prices in the market. Why? Because some say "Remington Rand, or Colt, or Singer, or you name it...they are still all 1911s or A1s as the case may be. But they are not nearly the same in value or appearance.

No company would stay in business very long if every customer who walked through their door was given some product that differed from the one they ordered. It's a simple matter of fair and honest business practice. If the gun dealer did not have a gun with ROCK ISLAND ARMORY stamped on it, when thats what the customer asked for...he(the dealer) should have informed him right then and there that he either had to order one, it was unavailable or asked if a substitute would be ok. To blindly hand a customer a gun which is not what was ordered is wrong. end of story.
If a dealer did this to me, the last thing he would see of me would be me walking out his front door, never to return.

I'm not one to microscopically go over a gun. I buy my guns mostly used, to shoot and probably don't take as good of care as I should with some of them, but I'd be damned if I'd accept a gun that was not what I ordered from any dealer, whether it was a hundred bucks or ten thousand bucks, especially in the manner with which this thread is in reference to.

As you pointed out, they are not marking them as RIA.anymore.....this might make a difference in the guns value down the road, as it was done on a limited basis. Again, if this occurred, the customer is screwed out of this added value and is stuck with his ARMSCOR marked gun.

Order what you want, pay for what you want, get what you want.
It doesn't get any more simple than that.
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  #13  
Old 02-10-2003, 06:08 PM
hipowr hipowr is offline
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Well, lets put it this way, i'm sure if the paperwork says RIA, there must be an RIA stamp on it somewhere. If there's not, then return it. I seriously doubt that it doesn't say RIA SOMWHERE on the gun. If my guess is wrong, so be it. Let him make an attempt to return the gun and find one he likes better. Its really not a subject worth everyone getting all riled up about. PersonallyI feel, if the gun shoots well, for the price they fetch, he should count himelf lucky. If we disagree, that's fine. I'm merely of the opinion that it isn't any issue if it has the manufacturers markings on it as well as possibly the US Distributor's. Matter of fact, its probably required to be that way.

AJ
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  #14  
Old 02-11-2003, 12:29 AM
lanyard_loop lanyard_loop is offline
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Take a lesson.

OcabJ:

Look sharp and be sharp! You do a through
inspection of the product BEFORE you lay your
money down at the gun shop. That is the time
to pull out of the deal. NEVER pay more that
50% down. Now they have ALL of the money and
you have NO bargaining power. Some of these
mom and pop gun stores play hard ball. This
is fundamental consumerism 101.

You can contest the charge on your credit
card if that is how you paid, but you have a
weak case. How could you NOT notice the slide
stamping at the gun store?

A word of advice. When you buy a car, you do
a walk around and check for dings and
scratches BEFORE you take it home. I
guarantee if you notice the scratch after you
get the car home and take it back, they will
tell you to SUCK EGGS, it wasn't scratched
when you drove off the lot!

Most manufactures have a clause that they can
change the specification of the product at
any time without notice.

Take a lesson. If not, you will be eaten
alive and next time it could be a VERY
expensive mistake.

It is dog eat dog out there! Business is
Business.

Lanyard.

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  #15  
Old 02-14-2003, 06:21 PM
rhett rhett is offline
 
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After all is said and done I'd NEVER accepted if it was not what I ordered or requested. Accepted meaning FROM the dealer. It should be replaced.
I believe the original poster should post the name of the dealer he obtained the pistol from.
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  #16  
Old 02-15-2003, 09:17 AM
hipowr hipowr is offline
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Anyone notice OcabJ hasn't posted a single reply? I'd say the issue is dead. Either he doesn't care what we have to say, or he handled it on his own.

later,
AJ
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  #17  
Old 02-15-2003, 09:40 AM
rhett rhett is offline
 
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Yes The issue wih him and the handgun does seem dead. That issue probably isn't tho. Maybe the poster came in registered just for that one question.
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  #18  
Old 02-18-2003, 12:49 AM
OcabJ OcabJ is offline
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oh. sorry for no reply. i haven't been able to get to the forums during my off time.

i resolved the issue. i talked to the dealer and they made a mistake at the warehouse. it was some kind of computer mistake that classified the armscor as a rock island. supposedly, it was just coincidental that armscor supplies rock island.

they don't get anymore rock islands so they could not replace. they offered to refund or i could keep the weapon and get $150 back.

i took the $150 back and the armscor ended up costing me $200+tax+dros.

they made modifications to the dros since it did say rock island but it did have the armscor's serial number.

i'm actually satisfied with the armscor actually. i took it out and it was an excellent gun for my first 1911. as a matter of fact, i am in the process of getting rid of one my .40cals (glock 27) to a friend of a friend so i can get a springfield armory next.
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  #19  
Old 02-18-2003, 10:08 AM
hipowr hipowr is offline
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Excellent, a most happy ending to the whole situation! Welcome to the 1911, and enjoy shooting them!

later,
AJ
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  #20  
Old 06-22-2004, 08:00 PM
torpedoman torpedoman is offline
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i see a problkem for the dealer with his records and paperwork a man can get in trouble with the feds if it dont all match up
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  #21  
Old 06-22-2004, 08:25 PM
2002gti 2002gti is offline
 
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wow thats an awesome deal. does it have the beavertail safety or gi?
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  #22  
Old 06-22-2004, 08:49 PM
ARTom ARTom is offline
 
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Way to go OcabJ, you got a great deal and excellent treatment from your dealer!

I've also got an Armscor 1911 .45, and its been totally reliable. I did a few "personalized" mods and now its very accurate. Works well with the original Novak mags, my Kimber's mags, and with with my 10 round Metalcraft mags. No complaints . . . except it and the Kimber are eating me out of house and home, lol.
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