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  #1  
Old 06-27-2020, 08:19 PM
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1911 vs M1 Carbine in a Practical Match

Pretty fun and interesting practical comparison between the two most significant American PDWs of World War Two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSOUmHito4M
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  #2  
Old 06-27-2020, 09:57 PM
GTAW GTAW is online now
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The M1 sure does well. I grew up shooting an M1 Inland that was later converted to an A1. I like the standard stock better than the somewhat bulky pistol grip on the wired folder. What a fast action. Never had the chance to shoot an M2 though. There is a recent thread under the topic: range report that covered some M1s...
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Old 06-27-2020, 10:29 PM
SdAufKla SdAufKla is online now
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I'm not surprised at all by the outcome and final score.

The carbine is a real hoot to shoot. Recoil is even less than a 5.56, and I actually find the ergonomics better than an AR-15 / M4 (and that's after 26+ years in the regular Army carrying an M16/M4). The M1's also substantially lighter (5.8 lb loaded) than the average M4 with picatinny rails, optics, and vertical foregrip (~8+ lb.), so it "feels" a lot faster to point and aim.

(Of course, the M4 is carrying 30 vice 15 rounds... a not inconsequential advantage.)

The carbine might not have huge stopping power, but it is just about the easiest long gun to fire and score consistent hits with that I've ever used.

FWIW, I think the M1 has gotten a pretty bum rap because it was too often misused as substitute main rattle rifle, and, in those cases, sure it was inferior to the Garand. Too many users expected it to be something it was never intended to be, and then disparaged it when all it was capable of was what it was designed for.
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  #4  
Old 06-28-2020, 12:00 AM
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I think the primary thing that Ian failed to point out was the fact that the average GI was nowhere near as proficient with a .45 pistol as he is, especially given the fact that the two-handed hold he was using was not commonly used at the time. Soldiers had minimal training in handguns, and what little there was mostly entailed one-handed precision shooting at a bullseye target. In actual combat they rarely hit what they were aiming at with a pistol, leading to the popular legend that the 1911 was pathetically inaccurate. I think if Ian had found a new shooter and let them run those drills the disparity between the 1911 and M1 Carbine would've been even greater.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:06 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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I mean rifle vs handgun after all......just like how someone who shoots master level can lose to a mid packer using a rifle in IDPA or USPSA. Nothing new really, a rifle always wins
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  #6  
Old 06-28-2020, 05:17 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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According to the war stories from WW2, Marines and Solders were very please with the 45's ability to stop a threat, not so pleased with M1 Carbine in this regard at all. Of course they are not judged against each other, rather in two separate buckets. Nevertheless, 45 was king of pistol, M1-Carbine step-child in long-gun. Yea, it is a carbine and has its purposes, but it is said many officers choose to carry an M1-Garand instead because of the superior stopping power and reliability (albeit, heavier, etc.).
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Last edited by combat auto; 06-28-2020 at 05:20 AM.
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  #7  
Old 06-28-2020, 05:32 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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AS far as the shooting match, fun to watch, not sure why he needed to wear his WW2 Halloween costume - LOL, but it is not apples to apples, as mentioned above, these two guns are in two different buckets...He should have done the test with the carbine against the M1 Garand. And the carbine would probably win on speed, but if it doesn't drop the enemy quickly, well...I think the test is a false choice overall, but still fun to watch. Generally, a pistol is a weapon of last resort, whereas that carbine is the primary weapon for some troops...Actually, and I don't know how true this is, some sources claim it was used very widely as a primary weapon.

Thanks for posting, fun thread.
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Last edited by combat auto; 06-28-2020 at 05:48 AM.
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  #8  
Old 06-28-2020, 08:00 AM
flechero flechero is online now
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fun comparison, but I wish it was more realistic

the carbine was not laid out on a table in a vehicle. Using a cond 3 flap holstered 1911 vs a carbine pointed downrange on a table, unobstructed, skews the results. The carbine would very likely have hung up getting it out of a real vehicle...

once deployed, rifle wins. (assuming it doesn't hang up and cause the loss)
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  #9  
Old 06-28-2020, 08:23 AM
Don Flynn Don Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
I think the primary thing that Ian failed to point out was the fact that the average GI was nowhere near as proficient with a .45 pistol as he is, especially given the fact that the two-handed hold he was using was not commonly used at the time. Soldiers had minimal training in handguns, and what little there was mostly entailed one-handed precision shooting at a bullseye target. In actual combat they rarely hit what they were aiming at with a pistol, leading to the popular legend that the 1911 was pathetically inaccurate. I think if Ian had found a new shooter and let them run those drills the disparity between the 1911 and M1 Carbine would've been even greater.

You hit the nail on the head there. WWII GI's had minimal training with handguns and would have been taught old school 1 handed techniques, not modern 2 handed combat style.

"Elite" units or "old guard" soldiers/Marine's would have been proficient but not the average 19-20 year old GI's, even after seeing combat.
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  #10  
Old 06-28-2020, 10:01 AM
Sierra 49er Sierra 49er is offline
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The carbine was a favorite carry rifle by the author of the book "Tactical Tracking Operations" by David Scott Donnelon. He had it fitted with a red dot optics and used 30 and mags. He also carried the Ruger Mini 30, but until they appeared on the scene, it was the 30 Cal. Carbine.

Also heard from a friend that witnessed a 3 gun competition where a competitor used a 30 Cal Carbine in competition. Said he did pretty good with it.

In the bush, with a 30 rnd mag an a red dot optic, the carbine speaks well for itself.
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  #11  
Old 06-28-2020, 10:43 AM
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Thing is, the carbine is not a "rifle": it was supposed to replace the pistol for certain troops. And, it definitely was easier for folks to score hits with. Wonderful little shooter, any way you slice it.
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Old 06-28-2020, 10:46 AM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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The M1 Carbine is a great little rifle but gets bad press because it did not do well w/ Ball ammo. it is my primary, home-defense gun and would be really effective w/ the Hornady Critical Defense ammo.

I have fired an M2. It operates as fast as the action can cycle as there is no buffer. I think the advertised rate-of-fire is 1100-rounds per minute.

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  #13  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Generally, a pistol is a weapon of last resort, whereas that carbine is the primary weapon for some troops...Actually, and I don't know how true this is, some sources claim it was used very widely as a primary weapon.
The M1 Carbine may have been designed to be a weapon mostly for rear-echelon and support personnel, but due to the perpetual shortage of M1 Garands (they simply couldn't be made fast enough) the M1 Carbines were thrown into a primary role as well. It proved to be a lot handier than the Garand in jungle fighting, so the Marines in the Pacific got a lot more of them than Army troops did in Europe. In addition, over 6 million M1 Carbines were made while only 4 million Garands were produced during World War Two (another 1.5 million were made during the Korean War), so quite obviously the M1 Carbine was fielded in greater numbers.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #14  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:16 AM
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I shot a Carbine and a .45 in 3-gun competition for a few years.
As long as the shots were no farther than 150 yards, I preferred the Carbine to my AR.
We'd do "house clearing" type stages with both rifle and pistol, and the Carbine was very easy to maneuver in hall- and door-ways, and could even be shot one-handed if necessary.
In combination, the Carbine and I could not hit 12" targets at 350 yards, but, as noted by just about everyone, that's not what it's for.
Also, contrary to Ian McCollum's contention that there are no reliable carbines, mine rarely ever malfunctions, as long as I stay on top of the condition of the magazines, which is something covered in Ian's interview of Ken Hackathorn; in combat, Carbine mags were considered disposable, and fresh ones were obtained at every opportunity.
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  #15  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:17 AM
Don Flynn Don Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
The M1 Carbine is a great little rifle but gets bad press because it did not do well w/ Ball ammo. it is my primary, home-defense gun and would be really effective w/ the Hornady Critical Defense ammo.

I have fired an M2. It operates as fast as the action can cycle as there is no buffer. I think the advertised rate-of-fire is 1100-rounds per minute.


Nice Carbine.

I've fired a M-2 also and think the cycle rate is too high for practical use. Too often you can see the muzzle climb on old war footage of GI's using the weapon and the 3rd-4th rounds are basically AA rounds unless the GI knows how to control it.

Since we're posting Carbine pictures, here's mine



Fulton Armory, 2 USGI Inlands and a "Howa". The Inland on the left is getting a new walnut stock soon, I've been wanting one and figured why not
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:36 AM
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Why are you replacing the stock on that Inland? From here it looks like the best of the bunch as it's the original color these stocks were.

As for the M2 and full auto, I've never shot one but Ian has: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ateT144BgPk

The M2 definitely would've benefited from a muzzle break of some kind. It may have fired a comparatively weak cartridge, but the high rate of fire in such a light weapon negated that.

And while we're at it, here is my photo submission:

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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.

Last edited by dsk; 06-28-2020 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:49 AM
longarm longarm is offline
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Y'all are messing with my M1-carbine envy, dammit.. Only #3son gets to do that!
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:19 PM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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I don't know what other GIs did, but I was an MP dog handler in Alaska mid 60s. We were issued a 1911 & 3 magazines with 5 rounds each. We were to carry one mag in the gun (cond. 3) 2 in the mag pouch. When I got out of sight of brass I loaded two mags. with 7 rounds chambered one, topped off that mag, holstered cocked & locked, put the loaded mag. In the 1st pocket in the pouch. With the flap over the gun, only I knew it's condition! This was during peacetime. There were times at night when I'd tuck the flap into the holster then holster the gun!
I can't imagine a combat soldier during war, holstering a 1911 in condition 3! Not logical
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:43 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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When all is said and done.

If I have to pick one of the two to go into harms way with. It will be one of my M-1 carbines. I can pick off a twelve inch gong from standing pretty consistently out to 150 yards all day long Of all my .45 acp guns the only one that I can do that with is my H&K Mark 23. And even then not as consistently as my M-1 carbines.
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:13 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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If I have to pick one of the two to go into harms way with. It will be one of my M-1 carbines. I can pick off a twelve inch gong from standing pretty consistently out to 150 yards all day long Of all my .45 acp guns the only one that I can do that with is my H&K Mark 23. And even then not as consistently as my M-1 carbines.
Nice, but that not really a surprise is it?
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:17 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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The M1 Carbine may have been designed to be a weapon mostly for rear-echelon and support personnel, but due to the perpetual shortage of M1 Garands (they simply couldn't be made fast enough) the M1 Carbines were thrown into a primary role as well. It proved to be a lot handier than the Garand in jungle fighting, so the Marines in the Pacific got a lot more of them than Army troops did in Europe. In addition, over 6 million M1 Carbines were made while only 4 million Garands were produced during World War Two (another 1.5 million were made during the Korean War), so quite obviously the M1 Carbine was fielded in greater numbers.
Interesting, thanks for the info, explains why they were so ubiquitous.
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:19 PM
Don Flynn Don Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Why are you replacing the stock on that Inland? From here it looks like the best of the bunch as it's the original color these stocks were.

As for the M2 and full auto, I've never shot one but Ian has: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ateT144BgPk

The M2 definitely would've benefited from a muzzle break of some kind. It may have fired a comparatively weak cartridge, but the high rate of fire in such a light weapon negated that.

And while we're at it, here is my photo submission:

I just like the way the walnut one on the FA looks, and the walnut one has a more solid feel to it IMO. That Inland is going to be the safe queen anyway so I'll dress it up a bit

The stock on the Inland was actually on the Howa when I got it, I switched them when I got the later last year.
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  #23  
Old 06-28-2020, 01:27 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is online now
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Of course the Carbine would win.

I would always, every day, rather fight with an M1 Carbine over a 1911. I think it was a great idea to replace the pistol with a Carbine. That said, can you imagine standing in line at the armory and watching all your buddies be issued an M1 Garand and then you get issued a .30 Carbine Cartridge? Oh my... Loser.

Btw, I own a M1 Carbine and it is harder to carry IWB when compared to my 1911.
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  #24  
Old 06-28-2020, 01:48 PM
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That said, can you imagine standing in line at the armory and watching all your buddies be issued an M1 Garand and then you get issued a .30 Carbine Cartridge? Oh my... Loser.
I don't think it was that willy-nilly. Standard infantrymen got the M1 Garand, but NCOs and anyone in a supporting role (bazooka, mortar, LMG) got the M1 Carbine (or a Thompson). Of course the guys thinking that were going to stay in the rear while they fired off mortars all day long usually found themselves right up in front with the other infantry, which is why you see so many pics of guys with Carbines next to those with Garands.
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:53 PM
Snoopy47 Snoopy47 is offline
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I enjoyed the video.

The outcome was expected, but I have two observations.

1) The shooter in this case is familiar with firearms to a great degree. Run the same course with a new shooter who only has a few weeks of weapons training to get a gist of an off the street recruit.

2) The capacity advantage of the Carbine is not exploited in this comparison. In the game of life 5 shots taken poorly in 5 seconds in the heat of battle with only 1 hit and 4 misses is better than 1 shot taken with 1 hit in 6 seconds.
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