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  #51  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:18 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
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I never cared one whit about the overall. I always sort practiscore by division.

At our club PCC is very popular, sometimes I shoot my SBR 9mm just for fun. Suppressors are forbidden.

I have never shot in Open division either, so never paid attention to their scores. As someone else stated, just ignore those competitors scores.

Its so popular that our range has also added a PCC only match to the monthly schedule, so now there's two opportunities each month to shoot a PCC.

The only down side I have seen is the belly aching from the occasional individual who doesn't like it. Like usual, you can't please everyone......So like I do with the overall scores, I just ignore them.....
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  #52  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:56 AM
Rosco Shooter Rosco Shooter is offline
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Competitive Action Pistol Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Well, I won't be 75 til next month, but I compete as best I can.
Standards are relaxed from a couple of decades ago, middle of the pack is good.

Since SS and DS start at 65, I think we need a Codger Category.
... or Curmudgeon
  #53  
Old 12-12-2019, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
A rifle is a firearm fired from the shoulder, while a pistol is a firearm fired using one or both hands.
You seem really hung up on the term short barreled rifle. I am not sure why.

Also, please confirm that the IDPA club that you shoot at posts results to Practiscore? If they do, has anyone ever showed you how to sort results by division?

This past weekend in a monthly USPSA/IPSC match that I help run we had about 45 shooters, 12 of them shooting PCC. Some were 16 inch rifles and some were NFA/SBR guns. I shot revolver with my Smith 929. Looking at the overall results, I got beat by a bunch of guns and I beat a lot of people in other divisions. It isnt the end of the world. Had I shot my Sig MPX or CMMG Guard, I might have won PCC division. Maybe not. It doesn't mean I am going to quit shooting. Looking at the shooters in Revo division, I absolutely dominated. The only other guy shooting revo was nobody. I had a good time hanging out with friends and putting holes in cardboard.
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  #54  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:53 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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USPSA match with 45 shooters.....

Quote:
You seem really hung up on the term short barreled rifle. I am not sure why.
A PCC is a short barreled rifle using a pistol round. By definition, a rifle is a shoulder mounted weapon...…

In the USPSA match described by Tom Freeman, out of 45 competitors, 12 were shooting PCC's....so over 25% of the shooters were using shoulder fired weapons.

I believe there is a place for using a PCC, but not at a pistol match....IDPA and USPSA were originally conceived as a pistol match....not a short barreled rifle match..... Shooting a handgun with speed and accuracy has always been my goal in IDPA and USPSA.....not a short barreled rifle with 30+ round mags that is a shoulder mounted weapon.....

I like Ligget's idea to make PCC users at an IDPA Match limited to 10 rounds and start with a trench coat for concealment, but with a loaded gun without a round in the chamber, their start position is with hands relaxed at their sides, and not allow suppressors.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 12-13-2019 at 04:56 AM.
  #55  
Old 12-13-2019, 08:29 AM
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So you dont know how to sort the results by division instead of looking at the overall. Got it.

By definition, a SBR is a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16.0 inches.
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  #56  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:43 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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SBR vs. PCC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
So you dont know how to sort the results by division instead of looking at the overall. Got it.

By definition, a SBR is a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16.0 inches.
Yup,

A Pistol Caliber Carbine is not a SBR. An SBR is not a PCC!

There are numerous distinctions including ammunition and SBR licensing/tax stamp in some neighborhoods!

Smiles,
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Last edited by jjfitch; 12-13-2019 at 11:45 AM.
  #57  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:21 PM
waktasz waktasz is online now
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SOME PCCs are SBRs, but rare, due to regulations. I only know a couple of guys who have them, and they shoot their full size guns instead because they handle batter.
  #58  
Old 12-14-2019, 05:21 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
SOME PCCs are SBRs, but rare, due to regulations. I only know a couple of guys who have them, and they shoot their full size guns instead because they handle batter.
This is somewhat true. When I shoot our PCC match I'm usually the only one with an SBR. If I were really trying to be in first place all the time I would build one that's a little heavier out front. But the length and weight of the barrel is only a small part of the equation. Tac com makes a barrel that is effectively only 5.25" with an aluminum shroud pinned to bring it to a legal 16". A friends using this barrel feels and swings very much like my SBR which has an 8" barrel. My problem with my SBR is I shoot 3-gun and Rifle matches much more frequently and that rifle is much heavier. Im constantly over swinging my SBR during transitions due to its lightness.
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  #59  
Old 12-14-2019, 05:47 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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How to sort by divsion on Practiscore....

Quote:
So you dont know how to sort the results by division instead of looking at the overall. Got it.
I do know how to sort on Practiscore….so you made an incorrect assumption.

My premise is that a "shoulder fired weapon" should not be used in a pistol match.....although a PCC is not by legal definition a "SBR," for all intents and purposed, it is a short barreled rifle.....

Although others have no issues with people using PCC's at a pistol match, right or wrong, I do not want to see them at a pistol match..... A PCC has many advantages to shoot fast and accurately versus a pistol, which is why many are using the PCC.....

There are those that think shooting a PCC at a pistol match is fine....but I disagree and think shoulder fired weapons should compete in a rifle match....
  #60  
Old 12-14-2019, 02:42 PM
waktasz waktasz is online now
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Well the bottom line is your opinion doesn't matter and the cat is already out of the bag.

Also a PCC is not a short barreled rifle, so you can keep trying to say it is but it just makes you sound silly. The majority of people at matches with PCCs have 16 inch barrels with 2-3 inches of muzzle brake on top of that. Some have 14 inch barrels with a welded on muzzle brake. Still not an SBR.
  #61  
Old 12-14-2019, 09:17 PM
mattc51 mattc51 is offline
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Would it be ok for them to pull their folding stock pcc out of their backpack, on the clock, to shoot it from concealment? Guess you don't do steel challenge much as the .22 shooters can run some stages pretty fast. Main reason for divisions and classifications. I compare myself overall in scores for the 5k run and guns I do, but most of the competitors are running similar stuff. Hard to compare overall against so many fast shooters in our local uspsa matches.
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  #62  
Old 12-15-2019, 03:41 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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A PCC is not a short barreled rifle....

Quote:
Also a PCC is not a short barreled rifle, so you can keep trying to say it is but it just makes you sound silly. The majority of people at matches with PCCs have 16 inch barrels with 2-3 inches of muzzle brake on top of that. Some have 14 inch barrels with a welded on muzzle brake. Still not an SBR.
So you believe a shoulder fired weapon, with 30 round mags, not concealed, using a center fire pistol cartridge, and using a muzzle brake, is a pistol.....? I just don't think so....I think it makes you sound sillier....I think it fits the description of a rifle:

Rifle - A shoulder-mounted firearm, having a series of spiral grooves (rifling) cut inside the barrel that impart a rapid spin to the single projectile, gyroscopically stabilizing it in flight for greatly improved accuracy over that of a smoothbore gun.

IMHO, a PCC is not a pistol and not necessarily a short barreled rifle, but I don't think it was intended to be used in a pistol match.....

Since a shoulder fired PCC is faster and more accurate to shoot, it has become very popular to be used in a pistol match...…so allowances have been made to allow their use..... In IDPA, where drawing a handgun from concealment is still the norm, a PCC is not holstered or concealed....and really doesn't fit the idea of drawing a handgun from concealment.....so it does not compete on a level playing field.....

When I am out in public, I have been carrying a concealed handgun in FL since the state changed the laws to allow "shall issue" concealed weapon permits in 1988.....for those that meet the qualifications, the state will issue a permit. Here is the Florida statute for concealed carry, and a PCC is not allowed since it is not a handgun:

790.06 License to carry concealed weapon or firearm.—

(1) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is authorized to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms to persons qualified as provided in this section. Each such license must bear a color photograph of the licensee. For the purposes of this section, concealed weapons or concealed firearms are defined as a handgun, electronic weapon or device, tear gas gun, knife, or billie…..

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 12-15-2019 at 03:54 AM.
  #63  
Old 12-15-2019, 07:52 AM
bradsvette bradsvette is online now
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Just in case... Sorting on Practiscore is as simple as clicking on your class: Limited=LTD. Click on LTD and the class results will then pull up. FWIW, I'm of the opinion that a shoulder fired weapon with a 16" barrel, regardless of caliber is a rifle. That being said, I don't mind competing against them when I'm shooting a pistol/handgun. I have a couple of PCCs and love shooting them. Without a doubt, they're easier to shoot and hit with, which is why every Military on the planet outfits their troops with rifles.

We had several shooting AR rimfires yesterday at the Steel Challenge Match where I shot, (CASA, I was 2nd of 4 in Limited Class). It's pretty tough to compete against that. Although they're not in my class, I compete against everyone. I try to be first overall, but I never have been first overall, or second, or third. But I try. Also, I never have figured out why the rimfire handgun guys can start from low ready, vice from the holster.

Last edited by bradsvette; 12-15-2019 at 07:54 AM.
  #64  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:50 AM
lhawkins lhawkins is online now
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It brings in additional match fees

You can filter PractiScore instead of overall

They are fun as heck!

We get to kid PCC shooters about their lack of pistol skills during matches


I understand the premise of the OP that it is not concealable and not in the vein of IDPA's goal, but being inclusive helps us all. It is a game after all. Not allowing them will just drive shooters to other matches. Most of our PCC shooters shoot it as a second gun.
  #65  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:55 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post

.....so it does not compete on a level playing field.....
Not even close to accurate. A PCC shooter is not competing against an Open shooter or a Limited shooter, nor is a Production shooter competing against an Open shooter. This is why we have divisions.

Your argument is like a Production shooter complaining about Open shooters.

The Pistol caliber in PCC is why it fits in a match with stages designed for a pistol as opposed to a rifle. The rifle stages at most matches I have attended, are designed with much farther distances than a PCC could manage.

You don't like em, We get that, Im sure my views won't change your mind. But the division is getting more and more popular. The host ranges are getting more used to running a match with them so they run more smoothly than at first. And they are fun to run.

Where do you attend matches here in Florida?

edited to add that my perspective is from the USPSA side of competition, but my comments apply to either. There is no such thing as leveling the playing field. Every match I have ever been to, all competitors played by the same rules, on the exact same stages, scored exactly the same for each competitor. By their respective divisions. It can't get any more level than that.....(I do not shoot IDPA, I have, but choose not too)
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Last edited by M-Peltier; 12-15-2019 at 09:10 AM.
  #66  
Old 12-15-2019, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsvette View Post
I never have figured out why the rimfire handgun guys can start from low ready, vice from the holster.
They dont make very many decent holsters for rimfire handguns. Just el cheapo Uncle Mikes nylon garbage. So rather than have someone drop a pistol or have an AD trying to get the pistol out, low ready is what it became.
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  #67  
Old 12-15-2019, 10:29 AM
bradsvette bradsvette is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
They dont make very many decent holsters for rimfire handguns. Just el cheapo Uncle Mikes nylon garbage. So rather than have someone drop a pistol or have an AD trying to get the pistol out, low ready is what it became.
Roger that. Thanks.
  #68  
Old 12-15-2019, 10:50 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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I have a good holster for my M41 steel gun which I use because it is natural to find the pistol there and not do the Bag Ballet. But I don't fast draw it, the safety is miniscule and stiff so it is a good thing the rules don't require it.
  #69  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:27 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Holsters for .22 pistols?

This one fits in a lot of holsters!


Nelson an a Fusion receiver. Out shoots my M41!

Smiles,
Attached Thumbnails
20180912_105529 Fusion Nelson.jpg  
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Last edited by jjfitch; 12-15-2019 at 01:33 PM.
  #70  
Old 12-15-2019, 05:26 PM
Snoopy47 Snoopy47 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouscuban View Post
I don't shoot IDPA but do shoot USPSA. I agree with everything you said. PCC needs to form their own league with stages designed specifically for them. The idea that it draws new shooters is crap. What happens is all the **** pistol shooters that can't compete switch to PCC.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
I'm seeing the same thing.

Why do people even care? Is it all about top over all?

I thought it was about winning the Division. I went to a Steet over the weekend and the only ones actually FASTER than me were .22LR, or PCC. So I felt on top of the world. I didn't care long guns and 22's beat me when I was shooting Single Stack
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  #71  
Old 12-16-2019, 05:31 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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My opinion on PCC's.....

Quote:
Your argument is like a Production shooter complaining about Open shooters.
NO....it is about a rifle competing against a pistol for High Overall ranking .....at least in the Open Division with a compensated handgun, it is still a pistol vs. a Production pistol...

I would much prefer to see the results of the High Overall pistol shooter, and have a separate ranking for High Overall PCC in ANY action pistol match.....a shoulder fired PCC is not a handgun.....
  #72  
Old 12-16-2019, 06:54 AM
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Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I would much prefer to see the results of the High Overall pistol shooter
No problem... look at the overall standings, and work your way down until you find one that isn't PCC.
That's the high overall pistol shooter.
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  #73  
Old 12-16-2019, 08:03 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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That's what I do.
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