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.223 loading questions

3K views 31 replies 18 participants last post by  Nitro.45 
#1 ·
Considering starting to load .223 (for a MSR) and wanted to ask a few questions:

Is a crimp necessary for AR type guns?

Is trimming required after each firing/resizing?

Anyone use the RCBS X sizing die? (supposedly reduces or eliminate trimming after initial trim) My hope was that I could load it on the 550 in a single pass if I didn't have to trim each time.

My purpose is generally paper/steel and coyotes. (50yds to 250yds, occasionally steel to 500yds) I'm low volume, (I know it would be cheaper to just buy ammo) but enjoy loading so this would be an opportunity to venture into another caliber. And I usually shoot at a home range so can recover my own brass and not end up with mixed range brass.

Any common pitfalls with .223 or anything I need to be wary of? Any specific die recommendations?
 
#2 ·
I always crimp for semi's except for long range ammo where I use a sled and hand feed. Reason is pretty simple, they get slammed into the feed ramp.
I suppose you could use a bushing neck die for more neck tension but not all brass is consistent in neck dimensions. I prefer bullets with a cannalure to reduce deforming the bullet with a light taper crimp.
Trimming? Depends on how much they have grown or how much you trimmed them to begin with but I usually trim for consistency in the crimp. This with a taper crimp but I suppose it's less important with say a factory crimp die that doesn't depend as much on case length.
 
#3 ·
I loaded many thousand rounds of .223 on my 550, and found that I only needed to trim every third time or so. The problem is that some range brass always gets in with your brass when you pick it up, so a bit of case prep before the loading step is recommended. Any crimped in primer brass I found during case polishing and inspection for case mouth cracks would include looking for crimped in primers, and I would decap them and remove the crimp with either a burring tool or the Dillon pocket swager depending on volume of cases to prep. I never found a need to crimp the case mouth, but I ended up doing so anyway with a Lee factory crimp die (with the collet) for bottleneck rifle for the .223, so I don't know if you would need to or not - chamber a few times and check OAL; if shortened, get the factory crimp die, and if not shortened you are probably okay with case mouth crimp.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Calipers and SAAMI spec's!




This is my regular routine as well.

The term "crimp" means different things to different people.

To me "crimp" means restoring to SAAMI specifications and does require a quality means of measuring both case length and "crimp".

I usually trim to -.010 from max and "crimp" just enough to restore to original diameter.

If the "crimp" fails the "push" test I'll add a little more. I'll also feed a few through the action using the bolt release to make sure reloaded rounds will feed, bullets won't depress into cases and the COL allows full bolt lock.

Once you get going with your own routine you will find what works best for you.

Smiles,
 
#5 ·
My experience loading for .223 service rifle was I needed no crimp and if crimped the accuracy suffered. I did use bushing dies mostly and looked for about .002 neck tension. Measure loaded rd with case and bullet your using and subtract .003, that will be the bushing size and most times will leave you with about .002 grip.
I'd prep about 1k at the time, size and trim with Dillon trimmer (neck opened up), de-burr and tumble lube off. Take care of primer crimp if needed. Most short line loads were then assembled on a progressive press. 600yd stuff single loaded, weighed charges etc.
Recycled brass after 3 loads so no more trimming. Throw that lot of brass away and change to new barrel and start over....
 
#6 · (Edited)
I'll take 'em in order.
1. You DO NOT NEED to crimp .223 (or any bottleneck case) provided you have sufficient neck tension. That means you have to measure things so that you have proper dimensions. Case neck walls should be about .011-.012" thick, the expander button should be a minimum of .003" smaller in diameter than the ID of the case neck. That will give a neck tension of .0015" minimum. You can increase tension by spinning the expander spindle in a drill and using a strip of 600 grit to adjust its diameter a bit at a time. Be sure to chamfer case mouths inside and outside so you can start a bullet easier.

2. If you are properly sizing your brass, you will likely not have to trim more than once during its useful life, maybe not at all. Set the sizer for no more than .003" shoulder set back. Measure several fired cases with the Hornady Headspace gauge, average. Let's say it comes out to 1.500". Adjust the sizer so that sized cases, average .003" shorter, or 1.497". If the brass has been reloaded more than twice, its a good idea to anneal it on the third reload. Anneal prior to sizing. Trim if needed AFTER sizing. Once you start sizing your brass this way, you will seldom need to trim it because it doesn't stretch. I haven't trimmed any of mine in several years and all are within proper length spec.

3. If you size your cases as I've outlined above, you don't need to buy X dies or small base dies.

4. Use brass from the same basic batch so that you don't have to constantly adjust your charges to compensate for minor differences in capacity. Generally speaking, .223 and 5.56 use ball type powders. Most ball powders have heavy coatings to regulate the burn rate, so use of magnum primers is beneficial. Work up your loads from the beginning with the mag level primers and you won't have any issues. If you have loads already with standard primers, always drop by 5% and work back up if you substitute magnum type. Don't shoot 5.56 NATO marked rounds in guns stamped for .223 Rem. 5.56 NATO barrels have a longer throat and can handle higher pressures. A .223 Wylde chamber can shoot either .223 or 5.56 without any problems. Make sure you know which yours is.
 
#8 ·
Well crap, I was going to bring the X die into the mix, but Rifters way is better. Im kind of a slob compared to that ritual.
I have a ton of brass that has been trimmed to the X die specs. I am at the point now that I can load 223 (after a touch of One Shot) nearly as fast as any of my pistol loads. I got tired of constantly trimming, so I took a shortcut and it works pretty good for me. Of course, taking your time with bottleneck cases will most likely yield more accurate results, but the stuff I churn out is pretty darn good.
 
#9 ·
Is a crimp necessary for AR type guns?

Is trimming required after each firing/resizing?

Anyone use the RCBS X sizing die?

Any common pitfalls with .223 or anything I need to be wary of? Any specific die recommendations?
I dont crimp for 223. I have yet to see it actually help accuracy at short or long range. Even when I use bullets with a cannelure, I dont crimp.

I dont trim between firings. I initially trim to 1.740 and go from there. By the time its time to trim again, the primer pocket is toast or I have lost the brass.

I dont use the X-Die as it is mostly a gimmick.

223 is painfully easy to reload with light bullets. Even cheap bullets like the Hornady 55 FMJ will shoot 1 MOA or less with most powder combinations.

I really like Varget for a powder, but it is hard to find right now. Benchmark is also a good choice for 223. RL-15 and Vhit N140 are good, but expensive.

Most all of my 223s have been rechambered to 223 Ackley these days. It gets me a couple hundred FPS for free and the sharp shoulder further cuts down on brass stretching.

I like Forster and Redding dies. If you are reloading on a progressive, consider a Redding body die where a crimp die would go. It is one last step to be sure your shoulder is bumped back and the bottom of the case was resized.
 
#10 ·
Before Varget came out, I experimented with the VV powders (N135 and N140) which worked plenty well; my best group was with BLC-2 out of my Rock River, so that is what I ended up staying with, from the 45 gr. Barnes-X up to my own swaged 6-s Spitzer 69.5 gr. pills. That Rock River REALLY liked the 69.5 gr. pills with the BLC-2. At 50 yards using military peep sights, I got a 10-shot group that I could cover with a dime - I didn't even think my eyes were good enough for that still. :)
 
#11 ·
I accidently trimmed some once fired brass to 1.730 and I never had to trim them again. The Hornady 55 grain FMJ bullets are better then most give credit. They outshot some 52 grain match bullets in my national match AR. Sounds like you will be using a single stage so pick a powder and go. If on a progressive I prefer ball powders with 223.
 
#12 ·
Rifter said:
2. If you are properly sizing your brass, you will likely not have to trim more than once during its useful life, maybe not at all. Set the sizer for no more than .003" shoulder set back. Measure several fired cases with the Hornady Headspace gauge, average. Let's say it comes out to 1.500". Adjust the sizer so that sized cases, average .003" shorter, or 1.497". If the brass has been reloaded more than twice, its a good idea to anneal it on the third reload. Anneal prior to sizing. Trim if needed AFTER sizing. Once you start sizing your brass this way, you will seldom need to trim it because it doesn't stretch. I haven't trimmed any of mine in several years and all are within proper length spec.
Well, dang...where were you with that bit of wisdom a few years ago when brass was scarce and I (and legions of others) were ordering X dies?

On the other hand, if you jumped on the band wagon and bought an X die, they do seem to work as advertised...I may keep the one set up for .308 but I really like the set of Dillon dies in .223 and may try going that way for .223.
 
#15 ·
I've been doing it that way for 40 odd years, Capt. I remember when RCBS brought out those X dies. I thought it was a gimmick then, and still do. Just another way to separate you from your money. If you have the Hornady Headspace Gauge kit, that covers 99% of cartridges out there that you are ever likely to load for.
 
#17 ·
Geez, I try to teach you guys, and you just won't listen. :) :rolleyes:
 
#20 ·
Reloading for my AR-15 rifles....

When I purchased my first AR-15, from Rock River Arms, it also purchased a set of carbide dies from Dillon....the die set at that time was $107.00. In a few years, the cost of the carbide set was over $150.00, and I have no idea if they are still offered by Dillon.....

Even though I had a carbide resizer die, I still used my home-made case lube to make things easier when resizing.....:)

For competitive 3-gun matches, our range seldom has rifle shots over 150 yards. I use a relatively light load using 23 gr. of VV N-133 powder with a 52 grain Sierra MK bullet. I can get sub MOA accuracy at 100 yards with this load. My Rock River uses a 1:8 twist, so I can also use 77 gr. Sierra boat tail bullets with Reloader 15 and/or Ramshot TAC with MOA or better accuracy for longer ranges or windy conditions when needed :)
 
#22 ·
Is a crimp necessary for AR type guns?

Is trimming required after each firing/resizing?
No, if a bullet doesn’t have a cannelure, I don’t crimp it. Neck tension is what holds them in place.

No, trimming is only required if the case is longer than it should be.

Crimped primer pockets is generally the “pitfall” that frustrates .223 reloaders but if you are using your own brass over and over you should have smooth sailing. If you are having to trim every firing, you are sizing your cases too much and it is just a matter of time before you have case head separation.
 
#23 ·
I set up my drill press with a Lee case trimmer in it, set the hard stop so I end up with 1.750", run 'em ALL through, the long ones get trimmed the short ones don't. I also chuck up a 60 degree counter sink to deal with the crimped primer pockets. I de-burr in and out, tumble. Generally don't crimp much, if at all, (the 1.750 cases will crimp, the 1.740" ones won't). If I'm loading bullets with a cannelure, I will use cases I know I trimmed to 1.750" so that the crimp die will do it's thing consistently.
 
#24 ·
My 5.65 and 7.62 gas guns have been happy with ammo made with X dies. One shared load for each caliber to keep things simple. It took some fiddling to find that common load that would shoot acceptably in every gun.
Once you find a magic combination, buy each component in bulk to stash away. This saves money, keeps everything in the same lot numbers, and lets you ride out any panic buying scenarios.
 
#28 · (Edited)
It can be done for a couple of handgun cartridges but bottle neck rifle cartridges about the best that can be done is one bullet/primer/powder combination that will work in a few rifles of the same caliber-that is after all what factory ammo is.

Between different bottle neck cartridges about the best one can hope for in my limited experience (I don't do as much with rifles as handguns) is finding a powder and maybe primers (depending on size) and bullets that will work in a couple like IMR 4895 and CCI LRP's in .30-06 and .308 with 150 and/or 168gr bullets. One might find a single charge weight that will work in both but I haven't been that lucky yet-in those two cartridges the starting load in -06 is higher than the max load in the .308...
 
#29 · (Edited)
My comments are after your questions.


Considering starting to load .223 (for a MSR) and wanted to ask a few questions:



Is a crimp necessary for AR type guns?


If you have sufficient neck tension, no. I shoot primarily cannelure bullets and it makes sense to crimp into that.



Is trimming required after each firing/resizing?

No, usually you get a couple of firings, but it comes down to handling (how often you handle before you get to a finished round). I used to use a Lyman gauge and post size sort with those needing sized going into a bucket and I trimmed those offline with a FA trimmer.

The above being said, if you are loading for PR, you will trim each time (and do a bunch of other things). From the sounds of it you will not need this level of precision.



Anyone use the RCBS X sizing die? (supposedly reduces or eliminate trimming after initial trim) My hope was that I could load it on the 550 in a single pass if I didn't have to trim each time.

No, but I have a Dillon RT1500 and it has negated the need entirely to sort trim/need to be trimmed brass. Now everything is trimmed to at or below max case length. This device is also used to convert to 300 BO.



My purpose is generally paper/steel and coyotes. (50yds to 250yds, occasionally steel to 500yds) I'm low volume, (I know it would be cheaper to just buy ammo) but enjoy loading so this would be an opportunity to venture into another caliber. And I usually shoot at a home range so can recover my own brass and not end up with mixed range brass.

Honestly, do not buy a press just for .223 at that volume. You would be farther ahead financially just buying it as .223 and 9 is so cheap. However, other reasons to reload: it is a hobby unto itself, cost per round is less once press and equipment paid for, less likely to be impacted by shortages, more accurate and tailored ammo.




Any common pitfalls with .223 or anything I need to be wary of? Any specific die recommendations?

I use Lee dies on Hornady LnL. I also use RCBS powder cop, and Lyman expander dies. You will also need to decide how you want to handle swaged primer pickets and brass prep.

Good luck going down the rabbit hole!
 
#31 · (Edited)
Dillon primer pocket swaging tool.....

+1!!! cavelamb's post shows the link for the Dillon primer pocket swaging tool. I also use the Dillon primer pocket swage tool....I always seem to pick up .223 military crimped brass at my local gun range, but the Dillon swaging tool is fast and easy to use to reload the .223 brass with small rifle primers. :) My D1050 press will swage military crimped primer pockets, but I have to remove the tool head to change the shell plate. Since I only load about 30-40 rounds of .223 at a time, I use my D550 reloading press, and when I run across a military crimped primer pocket, I remove it and toss in a box, and at a later time, I will swage the brass with my Dillon primer pocket swaging tool.

Although I have several D1050 tool heads, I do not have one set up with dies to load .223 ammo, since I do not shoot my AR's very often.... For reloading small amounts of .223 ammo, it is easier to configure my D550 to load .223, and even using a Dillon powder measure, I can obtain MOA five shot groups at 100 yards.....I could probably get better accuracy using a single stage press and hand weighing each powder charge, but I do not do any long range precision shooting with a rifle......
 
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