Need help with new RO compact - Page 2 - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:41 AM
Jolly Rogers Jolly Rogers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Eastern West Virginia
Posts: 4,921
Don’t drop the hammer from cocked position with the slide off the frame. Let the hammer down by riding it with your thumb. There is a very thin spot in the frame that has to stop the hammer with the slide off and it is very easy to damage the frame in this area. Severe damage can cause the upset metal to contact the slide and cause it to drag.
Joe
__________________
1911
The original instant emergency response number.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-22-2020, 12:24 PM
Alphadog Alphadog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 68
Update. The hammer is not binding, the grinding sound I heard was also audible with the hammer cocked and while pressing with my finger on the firing pin. Sounds like there's maybe some grit or some kind of interference in the channel.

My concern is that it's still way too easy to pull the hammer back while contacting the firing pin. It feels like the S&W 1911 is way harder to pull back (more than the 1 lb difference in firing pin spring weight). Could that 1 extra pound of aft force make it that much easier to pull back?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-22-2020, 01:25 PM
david_root2000 david_root2000 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Age: 59
Posts: 793
Perhaps you should shoot it. Might just work fine.
Don't condemn it yet.

David
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-22-2020, 01:58 PM
gun_fan111 gun_fan111 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphadog View Post
Update. The hammer is not binding, the grinding sound I heard was also audible with the hammer cocked and while pressing with my finger on the firing pin. Sounds like there's maybe some grit or some kind of interference in the channel.

My concern is that it's still way too easy to pull the hammer back while contacting the firing pin. It feels like the S&W 1911 is way harder to pull back (more than the 1 lb difference in firing pin spring weight). Could that 1 extra pound of aft force make it that much easier to pull back?

Clean out the firing pin channel and let us know what you find there. Should take 3-4 mins.
__________________
NRA Life member
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:23 PM
Alphadog Alphadog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 68
Hey guys. Just came back from the range. It ran flawlessly through 150 rounds with chip McCormick/ colt 7 round mags with the EGW guide rod assembly.

Guess it's a non issue, but it still bothers my OCD. I'll report back after cleaning the firing pin channel and after talking to Springfield.

Thank you everyone for your comments.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:03 PM
Pedro 1 Pedro 1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Age: 62
Posts: 1,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphadog View Post
Hey guys. Just came back from the range. It ran flawlessly through 150 rounds with chip McCormick/ colt 7 round mags with the EGW guide rod assembly.

Guess it's a non issue, but it still bothers my OCD. I'll report back after cleaning the firing pin channel and after talking to Springfield.

Thank you everyone for your comments.
I've been following your thread, and I'm happy for you!
It doesn't get any better than flawless.
Pedro.
__________________
NRA
GOA
NAGR
VCDL
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-23-2020, 07:14 AM
Jolly Rogers Jolly Rogers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Eastern West Virginia
Posts: 4,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphadog View Post
Hey guys. Just came back from the range. It ran flawlessly through 150 rounds with chip McCormick/ colt 7 round mags with the EGW guide rod assembly.

Guess it's a non issue, but it still bothers my OCD. I'll report back after cleaning the firing pin channel and after talking to Springfield.

Thank you everyone for your comments.
The fix may be as easy as filing a few thousands off the top of the mainspring housing cap. This allows the cap to be pushed up a bit higher against the mainspring housing pin. This in turn add a tad bit of pressure to the hammer strut. Problem solved.
Joe
__________________
1911
The original instant emergency response number.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-23-2020, 08:51 AM
Alphadog Alphadog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 68
[/QUOTE]
The fix may be as easy as filing a few thousands off the top of the mainspring housing cap. This allows the cap to be pushed up a bit higher against the mainspring housing pin. This in turn add a tad bit of pressure to the hammer strut. Problem solved.
Joe[/QUOTE]

Joe, how would it add extra pressure? From having the spring compressed slightly more? What if I just bought a slightly stronger main spring?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-23-2020, 09:33 AM
Alphadog Alphadog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 68
Thinking about it more, that would actually decompress the spring slightly, causing less tension, but raising the point of contact with the hammer strut and mainspring cap...correct me if I'm wrong
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-23-2020, 03:34 PM
Alphadog Alphadog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 68
Update: I spoke with a tech from Springfield. He seemed to think it wasn't an issue , but didn't really have a good explanation for it. He says it's the strong firing pin spring. I was told they use a "extra power " recoil spring from Wolff. I couldn't find out the weight online, and their offices are closed for the time being. Springfield said the mainspring is 22 lbs. Interesting how the firing pin spring can oppose a 22 lb spring with that much force.. oh well. I'm gonna take out the firing pin assembly to check it and clean it out tonight.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-23-2020, 05:02 PM
Pedro 1 Pedro 1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Age: 62
Posts: 1,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphadog View Post
Update: I spoke with a tech from Springfield. He seemed to think it wasn't an issue , but didn't really have a good explanation for it. He says it's the strong firing pin spring. I was told they use a "extra power " recoil spring from Wolff. I couldn't find out the weight online, and their offices are closed for the time being. Springfield said the mainspring is 22 lbs. Interesting how the firing pin spring can oppose a 22 lb spring with that much force.. oh well. I'm gonna take out the firing pin assembly to check it and clean it out tonight.
I noticed the same mistaken feeling of un sprung free play on my Colt Officers ACP and it concerned me until I figured it out, as you did in post # 5.
I think the fact that the main spring is almost at it's relaxed position magnifies the misconception.
I've since checked two of my other 1911"s and the feeling is identical.
Pedro.
__________________
NRA
GOA
NAGR
VCDL
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-23-2020, 06:41 PM
gun_fan111 gun_fan111 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,781
I checked one of my guns last night as well, it is definitely easier to pull the hammer back the first 1/16” but no matter where I leave it, hammer returns back to touch the firing pin stop. Remember that 22lbs spring is not applying direct force at this point and the 2-3lbs spring is, so comparing their rating is not accurate.

Considering the geometry at work, I also would not expect the perfect even force all the way through the hammer movement cycle.



Finally (), have you ever noticed that springs get harder to compress as you go? It’s easier to hold the slide 1/2 open versus fully open.
__________________
NRA Life member
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-23-2020, 08:09 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphadog View Post
Update: I spoke with a tech from Springfield. He seemed to think it wasn't an issue , but didn't really have a good explanation for it. He says it's the strong firing pin spring. I was told they use a "extra power " recoil spring from Wolff. I couldn't find out the weight online, and their offices are closed for the time being. Springfield said the mainspring is 22 lbs. Interesting how the firing pin spring can oppose a 22 lb spring with that much force.. oh well. I'm gonna take out the firing pin assembly to check it and clean it out tonight.
When you have the firing pin out, check if the spring was installed correctly. The smaller end of the spring should be toward the rear of the firing pin, where it will fit tight on the firing pin.

As gun_fan111 pointed out above, the firing pin has a mechanical advantage over the hammer strut due to it's greater distance from the hammer pivot pin. With a 22 lb mainspring, the rest force of the hammer at the firing pin will only be about 6 to 6.5 lb. Mine measures about 7 lb, with a 23 lb mainspring. Still enough force to overpower the firing pin spring, but there may or may not be enough travel of the hammer under tension to completely depress the firing pin against the firing pin stop.

If not to late to try, assemble without the firing pin. What is the tension and free movement like then?

-
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-23-2020, 08:56 PM
Alphadog Alphadog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 68
Megafiddle. I just finished assembling and forgot to check. But I'm sure it would be normal, since there is plenty of tension with the slide off and hammer down. The channel and spring were full of grit and pretty dirty. Cleaned it all out and it sounds much better now. The spring was assembled the correct direction.

Even if it was only 6 pounds at the hammer, shouldn't that overpower a 3 lb spring?

Do yall think I should grab a new longer hammer strut to fix this? It's a cheap enough part.

Last edited by Alphadog; 03-23-2020 at 08:59 PM. Reason: Edited to add info
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-23-2020, 10:42 PM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Alabama and Florida, US
Posts: 11,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphadog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Rogers
The fix may be as easy as filing a few thousands off the top of the mainspring housing cap. This allows the cap to be pushed up a bit higher against the mainspring housing pin. This in turn add a tad bit of pressure to the hammer strut. Problem solved.
Joe
Joe, how would it add extra pressure? From having the spring compressed slightly more? What if I just bought a slightly stronger main spring?
The mainspring cap has a raised rim around the outer diameter and a recessed center where the hammer strut sits. Filing the outer diameter will allow the cap to rise by an amount equal to the amount filed off. That may be enough to press the strut, further rotating the hammer further forward against the firing pin.

Last edited by BBBBill; 03-24-2020 at 01:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 03-24-2020, 12:50 AM
megafiddle megafiddle is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphadog View Post
Megafiddle. I just finished assembling and forgot to check. But I'm sure it would be normal, since there is plenty of tension with the slide off and hammer down. The channel and spring were full of grit and pretty dirty. Cleaned it all out and it sounds much better now. The spring was assembled the correct direction.

Even if it was only 6 pounds at the hammer, shouldn't that overpower a 3 lb spring?

Do yall think I should grab a new longer hammer strut to fix this? It's a cheap enough part.
Yes, even 6 lbs is more than enough to overpower the firing pin spring.

The mainspring is captive, with the mainspring cap having limited travel within the mainspring housing. At some point along the hammer's forward travel, the mainspring cap will stop on the cap retaining pin and the hammer will lose all tension at that point. The mainspring cap simply can't push up on the strut anymore.

This can result in three possible conditions for the rest position of the hammer:

1) The hammer will come to rest on the firing pin stop. This requires that the various dimensions involved are such that there is still mainspring tension on the hammer while it is resting on the firing pin stop. The mainspring cap has just stopped on the cap retaining pin (or is very close to doing so). There is mainspring tension present taking up any free movement of the hammer.

2) The hammer will come to rest on the firing pin. The firing pin is just slightly depressed, more or less, but the hammer has lost tension before it could reach the firing pin stop. The mainspring cap has stopped against the cap retaining pin. It cannot push the strut up (and hammer forward) any further. There is no free movement of the hammer, but in this case, it is the firing pin spring tension taking up any free play.

3) The hammer has come to rest short of touching the firing pin. The mainspring cap has stopped against the cap retaining pin, and the hammer strut is not quite long enough to position the hammer in contact with the firing pin. There will be some free play in the hammer; it can actually rattle against the firing pin if all other tensions are removed (like the sear tension).

Longer struts are usually fitted to correct condition 3). Many would find that unacceptable.

I'm still not clear if you have actual free play (flop around type free play), or just movement under reduced tension?

And the binding or interference is gone now?

-
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-24-2020, 06:23 AM
Jolly Rogers Jolly Rogers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Eastern West Virginia
Posts: 4,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBBBill View Post
The mainspring cap has a raised rim around the outer diameter and a recessed center where the hammer strut sits. Filing the outer diameter will allow the cap to rise by an amount equal to the amount filed off. That may be enough to press the strut, further rotating the hammer further forward against the firing pin.
What I was implying without complete information! But WTH were you doing up at 2:15 ??
Joe
__________________
1911
The original instant emergency response number.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-24-2020, 06:51 AM
Alphadog Alphadog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 68
So dont buy a new strut?

There is no binding..
What's happening is, when I dry fire, the hammer is all the way against the FPS. There isn't necessarily free play, but it takes 1 lb of force to pull the hammer back to the point of there still being contact with the firing pin in it's full rearward position (about 1/16"). Then the hammer will just stay there. The firing pin spring pressure is equalized with the main spring pressure. I can push the hammer all the was up against the FPS, then it stays there until I move it again. The hammer is staying wherever I leave it instead of always contacting the FPS.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:04 PM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Alabama and Florida, US
Posts: 11,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Rogers View Post
What I was implying without complete information! But WTH were you doing up at 2:15 ??
Joe
Old habits are hard to break. My last assignment before retirement was running a shop of about 80 folks. My shift was 12 hours (really 14 as I came in an hour early and stayed over after the shift) from 8PM to 8AM culminating with running the morning briefing for ADM McRaven and his staff. It has been almost 6 years now and I'm still a night owl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphadog View Post
So dont buy a new strut?
Not necessary to do anything unless you are getting some malfunctions. It would bug me, so I would start with Jolly Rogers' idea and reduce the top of the mainspring cap. If that didn't do it I would install/fit a longer strut. A longer strut will certainly get it done, but I like working with what I have if it can be done safely and produce an acceptable result.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:20 PM
gun_fan111 gun_fan111 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,781
Need help with new RO compact

If OP is feeling the mainspring resistance with the slide off and past the same point of hammer travel, I would be very tempted to say that “not enough travel” is not an issue here.

You can test this by installing your MSH without the spring retention pin, it will just be a bit tricky...

We are missing something else that interferes with the hammer movement at that particular point in its travel arch when the hammer is against the FP stop... I just don’t know what
__________________
NRA Life member

Last edited by gun_fan111; 03-24-2020 at 03:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:59 PM
Alphadog Alphadog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 68
Gun fan,
There's not really interference. And there is no "lack of travel" issue. The mainspring just doesn't have enough power left at the top of its movement to overpower the firing pin spring. That is all. It bothers my OCD, so I may end up installing a slightly longer hammer strut, or maybe a new main spring from wolf that is 1 lb heavier. The issue could just be a out of spec mainspring.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 03-24-2020, 04:27 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 368
-

Last edited by megafiddle; 03-24-2020 at 04:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 03-24-2020, 04:41 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphadog View Post
So dont buy a new strut?

There is no binding..
What's happening is, when I dry fire, the hammer is all the way against the FPS. There isn't necessarily free play, but it takes 1 lb of force to pull the hammer back to the point of there still being contact with the firing pin in it's full rearward position (about 1/16"). Then the hammer will just stay there. The firing pin spring pressure is equalized with the main spring pressure. I can push the hammer all the was up against the FPS, then it stays there until I move it again. The hammer is staying wherever I leave it instead of always contacting the FPS.
That sounds like "condition 2" I described above.

The question is, why isn't the firing pin pushing the hammer back off of the firing pin stop and holding it there?

If you're able to pull the hammer back, and it stays there, it's run out of mainspring tension. Then, if you're able to push the hammer forward against the stop and it stays there, it has no firing pin spring tension.

When that condition exists, where you can move the hammer back and forth and it stays, is the firing pin protruding from the firing pin stop?

It sounds like the firing pin is getting stuck forward.

-
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 03-24-2020, 05:31 PM
Alphadog Alphadog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 68
(That sounds like "condition 2" I described above.

The question is, why isn't the firing pin pushing the hammer back off of the firing pin stop and holding it there?)

Because the forces of both springs are equalized.

(If you're able to pull the hammer back, and it stays there, it's run out of mainspring tension. Then, if you're able to push the hammer forward against the stop and it stays there, it has no firing pin spring tension.

When that condition exists, where you can move the hammer back and forth and it stays, is the firing pin protruding from the firing pin stop?

It sounds like the firing pin is getting stuck forward.)

The firing pin will always be contacting the hammer. The firing pin is not getting stuck, when I push it with my finger only, it feels just fine. Plenty of spring force rearward.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 03-24-2020, 06:24 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphadog View Post
The firing pin will always be contacting the hammer. The firing pin is not getting stuck, when I push it with my finger only, it feels just fine. Plenty of spring force rearward.
And yet if you push the hammer against the firing pin stop, it will stay there?

Or does this only occur when you dry fire?

Try this:

Dry fire several times, just cocking the hammer manually. Don't pull the slide back. When you pull the trigger each time, hold it back; don't release it forward.

Does the hammer feel any different while holding the trigger back?

-
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:49 AM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved