we had a talk today at work about the 1911 being dead in LEO work, thoughts? - Page 5 - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 02-27-2019, 12:18 AM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Williams View Post
Great post, can you go over this briefly?
DX-Distinguished Expert, highest rank of marksmanship for the LAPD

400 Shooter. The LAPD has two pistol qualification courses. The basic qualification course and the Bonus course. The Bonus course was designed to mimic a shortened circa 1965 PPC course. It's also the course officers have to shoot to qualify for shooting medals. In the history of the LAPD only about 65-70 officers have shot a perfect score of 400.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 02-27-2019, 12:34 AM
SW CQB 45 SW CQB 45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Victoria, Tx
Posts: 3,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
DX-Distinguished Expert, highest rank of marksmanship for the LAPD

400 Shooter. The LAPD has two pistol qualification courses. The basic qualification course and the Bonus course. The Bonus course was designed to mimic a shortened circa 1965 PPC course. It's also the course officers have to shoot to qualify for shooting medals. In the history of the LAPD only about 65-70 officers have shot a perfect score of 400.
Mark, is there a link to the actual courses of fire (both)?
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 02-27-2019, 07:48 AM
AimHi AimHi is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Michigan
Posts: 6
Interesting thread … but brings up a question in my mind:

Given the dominance of Glock and general lack of training, would a typical duty officer these days even know how to clear and 'safe' a loaded and cocked 1911 or DA/SA?
__________________
Bullseye Preservation Society of America, founding member.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #104  
Old 02-27-2019, 01:02 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,390
Yes. There is a protocol for clearing & securing weapons. I've seen them doing this at "Duffy Town" ---- one of the SD training facilities.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 02-27-2019, 01:35 PM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by f1racefan View Post
I think using a single stack anything for a duty weapon is not exhibiting very clear thinking. Yeah, most cops carry spare mags, but having to change a mag is something you hope you don't get to. Most good double stack mags in 9mm hold at least 15 rounds, with some holding 17 or 18. That's a lot of rounds to expend before you have to replenish the weapon with a mag change.

If you really want a 1911 duty weapon, look at the 2011 double stacks. I have an STI Guardian 2011 in 9mm. It holds 17 + 1 rounds and it accurate and reliable. I'd have no issue carrying that as a duty weapon.
Just some thoughts on the topic. Comments welcomed from cops.

***

Why does a cop need to have so much ammo on hand? Correctly done, no shots need be fired, much less a gun drawn. It seems to me that we have gone from good tactics oriented toward apprehension to brute force grabs. Yes, incidents happen in a heartbeat. That is why cops have guns. But do multiple officers have to do mag dumps?

Wouldn’t it make more sense to patrol in pairs with one covering from a superior position? I know there are always exceptions such as one incident where three or four officers were in good positions at a traffic stop. The perp still shot the cop at the driver side door in the stomach and took off...and everyone missed him with resulting barrage!
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 02-27-2019, 01:41 PM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 507
Looks like a 1911 here...and a reload at 22 seconds.

https://youtu.be/gZfBlWUCGdk

Last edited by tomrkba; 02-27-2019 at 01:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 02-27-2019, 10:49 PM
SoCalDep SoCalDep is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
Just some thoughts on the topic. Comments welcomed from cops.

***

Why does a cop need to have so much ammo on hand? Correctly done, no shots need be fired, much less a gun drawn. It seems to me that we have gone from good tactics oriented toward apprehension to brute force grabs. Yes, incidents happen in a heartbeat. That is why cops have guns. But do multiple officers have to do mag dumps?

Wouldn’t it make more sense to patrol in pairs with one covering from a superior position? I know there are always exceptions such as one incident where three or four officers were in good positions at a traffic stop. The perp still shot the cop at the driver side door in the stomach and took off...and everyone missed him with resulting barrage!
Everyone wants more cops until they have to pay for more cops. Everyone wants better trained cops until they have to pay for better trained cops. Everyone is an expert until someone is pointing a gun at them.... then reality hits. I just saw an American civilian pull a POS handgun from a POS holster, which she called a “safety holder”, point it at her own abdomen, and discuss her “home invasion” bullets. Because I saw it on a social media video I now question why American civilians can own guns because they’re frigin’ stupid.

Watching a video is insufficient to establish expertise on a subject. That’s my comment as a cop.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 02-28-2019, 02:14 AM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
Everyone wants more cops until they have to pay for more cops. Everyone wants better trained cops until they have to pay for better trained cops. Everyone is an expert until someone is pointing a gun at them.... then reality hits. I just saw an American civilian pull a POS handgun from a POS holster, which she called a “safety holder”, point it at her own abdomen, and discuss her “home invasion” bullets. Because I saw it on a social media video I now question why American civilians can own guns because they’re frigin’ stupid.

Watching a video is insufficient to establish expertise on a subject. That’s my comment as a cop.
In my experience, it isn't primarily a money issue. To be a better trained cop, you have to want to be a better trained cop. Simple as that. People don't work there asses off to be members of SWAT or Special Forces because the money is so much better or that they get their training ammo paid for.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 02-28-2019, 08:00 AM
D Williams D Williams is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
DX-Distinguished Expert, highest rank of marksmanship for the LAPD

400 Shooter. The LAPD has two pistol qualification courses. The basic qualification course and the Bonus course. The Bonus course was designed to mimic a shortened circa 1965 PPC course. It's also the course officers have to shoot to qualify for shooting medals. In the history of the LAPD only about 65-70 officers have shot a perfect score of 400.
Gotcha, thanks for the info!
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 02-28-2019, 11:09 AM
SoCalDep SoCalDep is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by toofew1911s View Post
In my experience, it isn't primarily a money issue. To be a better trained cop, you have to want to be a better trained cop. Simple as that. People don't work there asses off to be members of SWAT or Special Forces because the money is so much better or that they get their training ammo paid for.
What is your experience?

To be a better trained cop you need to be trained better. Desire means nothing without the training... thus what you are advocating is that every cop spend their own money to seek out training on their own... which is simply an unrealistic expectation in our society. Even if motivated to attend department training, which many are not, that training has to be provided, and since most aren’t motivated there needs to be additional infrastructure that holds officers accountable for training and/or performance and that costs money in a variety of ways.

We can stand around like democrats lamenting the idealistic and unrealistic way things “should” be, or we can accept that to get something you have to give something and if you want better performance from law enforcement you’re gonna have to pay for it.

Cops in many areas of this country make low blue collar wages and everyone expects them to know the law like a lawyer, treat kids like a social worker, provide medical treatment like a paramedic, shoot like a special forces soldier, drive like a race car driver and a DMV license test proctor... at the same time..., and make split second decisions to effectively solve problems that probably took years or decades to develop prior to the cop’s arrival... And any part of that that doesn’t look perfect on the video they’re required to strap on their body and in their car and it is claimed they are inept.

With the number of deaths due to medical mistakes Coupled with claims of inappropriate conduct, I wonder how many doctors would be cool with body cams... and we pay doctors a poop-ton of money.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 02-28-2019, 02:38 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by SW CQB 45 View Post
Mark, is there a link to the actual courses of fire (both)?
PM sent
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 02-28-2019, 11:01 PM
Kevin Rohrer's Avatar
Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Medina, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by f1racefan View Post
I think using a single stack anything for a duty weapon is not exhibiting very clear thinking. Yeah, most cops carry spare mags, but having to change a mag is something you hope you don't get to. Most good double stack mags in 9mm hold at least 15 rounds, with some holding 17 or 18. That's a lot of rounds to expend before you have to replenish the weapon with a mag change.

If you really want a 1911 duty weapon, look at the 2011 double stacks. I have an STI Guardian 2011 in 9mm. It holds 17 + 1 rounds and it accurate and reliable. I'd have no issue carrying that as a duty weapon.
Although I don't agree w/ most everything written here, I do agree w/ his corollary that having a fat mag means nothing except more chances to miss.

Unless there are those here who think they might someday need to rescue everyone in a certain, Japanese-named, hi-rise building over Christmas, no one needs a ton of extra rounds. This means I can't think of a real-life situation where I would need >the 25-rounds I carry. If the situation required more than that, I would either use something belt-fed or in the multi-kiloton range.
__________________
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA-Life, and the American Legion.

Don't trust Cavery Grips/American Gripz. He WILL rip you off.
All my 1911s are in .45acp. Why? Because no one makes one in .46cal.--Me
The 9mm is a SD cartridge fit only for women and Europeans--Me
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 03-01-2019, 09:15 PM
jnc36rcpd jnc36rcpd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 117
tomrkba, could you explain what tactics guarantee that police need not draw or discharge their firearms? In my experience, criminals resist arrest and assault officers at their discretion. While some protocols such as having enough back-up may somewhat reduce the chances of this, criminals may be under the influence of drugs, mentally ill, desperate, or just plain evil and opt not to "de-escalate".

The multiple rounds fired by multiple officers are a normal human reaction to fear of death. If we're working a beat and a suspect draws on us, I seriously doubt your reaction will be "OId jnc has this! I'll count on him to place two effective shots center mass and save both our lives. I have to get home after work and don't want to fill out a response-to-resistance-and-aggression report." Perhaps you might, but most officers won't take such a chance. They will draw and fire until the threat is stopped.

The two-officer car idea is often the topic of debate. While one has built in back up, you reduce the number of cars available on the street. Having multiple officers available to respond when I need them is, to my mind, preferable to realizing that I need more than my riding partner and that cars are likely farther from me than they would be if we worked solo. Moreover, two officers would be tied up on even the most mundane of calls. It would be impractical for one officer to leave his or her partner at a vandalism occurred earlier report to drive solo to back another car up on a hold-up alarm.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 03-01-2019, 09:56 PM
DR505 DR505 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,969
Quote:
Originally Posted by AimHi View Post
Interesting thread … but brings up a question in my mind:

Given the dominance of Glock and general lack of training, would a typical duty officer these days even know how to clear and 'safe' a loaded and cocked 1911 or DA/SA?
I have processed scenes where I had to demonstrate how to "safe" a single action revolver; a single action semi-auto; and a lever action rifle. The other LE on scene had never handled them before. It happens.
__________________
An armed society is a polite society.
-Robert A. Heinlein-
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 03-02-2019, 01:22 PM
JAG45 JAG45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Central AR I-40 heading west
Posts: 181
On how common the 1911 is in police work back in the day. Back in the early 1980's I was in a national police trainer’s seminar in Houston. Every Texas Ranger I knew at the time carried a 1911 high and tight. We broke for lunch and I was the first back in the room. In walks one of the instructors who was going to make the first presentation after lunch. He was a nationally known instructor on prison gangs. And I am sure if you are old enough to go back to the 80’s or studied some of the writings that far back you have heard of him. I was gearing-up and he asked to see my 1911. (all weapons were cleared and no ammo allowed in the class room). My 1911 was cocked and locked so the thumb strap would close. I pulled it and hand it to the instructor. And watched him try to clear it for about 45 seconds. He tried to retract the slide and tried. Finally, he thumbs the safety off and pulled the trigger to drop the hammer. I just stood there shanking my head in amazement.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 03-02-2019, 09:23 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,390
The OP's question was if the 1911 was dead in Police Work.

Again, my answer is YES.

Now at my last realty office we had a typewriter. A couple times I used it for addressing envelopes & other quick jobs.

So could you say that "typewriters are alive & well in the Real Estate business"????

No. Of course not. A few typewriters used by some people does not mean squat.

In the Grand Scheme Of Things the single-stack 1911 as a Police sidearm is dead.

Don't confuse the warmth of decomposition as a sign of life.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 03-02-2019, 11:51 PM
SoCalDep SoCalDep is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
The OP's question was if the 1911 was dead in Police Work.

Again, my answer is YES.

Now at my last realty office we had a typewriter. A couple times I used it for addressing envelopes & other quick jobs.

So could you say that "typewriters are alive & well in the Real Estate business"????

No. Of course not. A few typewriters used by some people does not mean squat.

In the Grand Scheme Of Things the single-stack 1911 as a Police sidearm is dead.

Don't confuse the warmth of decomposition as a sign of life.
But if typewriters were considered one of the most respected firearms at one of the largest real estate agencies in the country... one that dwarfs most other agencies... would your experience be lacking perspective?

I say that because the 1911 is one of the most respected firearms at one of the largest municipal police departments in the country, and if you go to their academy you’ll see just how popular they are. Go next door, to another large agency, and they issue a 1911. Another one, the biggest of its type, in the same area, recently authorized them. Yea... maybe lacking popularity, but only dead if you like Monty Python movies and have a club nearby....

“BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!”
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 03-02-2019, 11:57 PM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
What is your experience?

To be a better trained cop you need to be trained better. Desire means nothing without the training... thus what you are advocating is that every cop spend their own money to seek out training on their own... which is simply an unrealistic expectation in our society. Even if motivated to attend department training, which many are not, that training has to be provided, and since most aren’t motivated there needs to be additional infrastructure that holds officers accountable for training and/or performance and that costs money in a variety of ways.

We can stand around like democrats lamenting the idealistic and unrealistic way things “should” be, or we can accept that to get something you have to give something and if you want better performance from law enforcement you’re gonna have to pay for it.

Cops in many areas of this country make low blue collar wages and everyone expects them to know the law like a lawyer, treat kids like a social worker, provide medical treatment like a paramedic, shoot like a special forces soldier, drive like a race car driver and a DMV license test proctor... at the same time..., and make split second decisions to effectively solve problems that probably took years or decades to develop prior to the cop’s arrival... And any part of that that doesn’t look perfect on the video they’re required to strap on their body and in their car and it is claimed they are inept.

With the number of deaths due to medical mistakes Coupled with claims of inappropriate conduct, I wonder how many doctors would be cool with body cams... and we pay doctors a poop-ton of money.

You answered the question yourself - many people are not motivated to spend their own money or even extra time. They simply due the minimum of what is provided and required. I don't care if more training is even offered to these people, because they are going to show marginal improvement anyway even with the additional training. The desire just isn't there for some folks.

When I worked in L.A., I still found the time to go to the range at least twice a week - and more on the weekends weather and time permitting. I and another fellow with L.A. Sheriffs Narcotics Division spent additional time training with each other on hand to hand techniques and additional situational firearm training at an indoor range. No, we weren't paid to do that but we both had the desire to be as good as we could be within practical limits.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 03-03-2019, 12:11 AM
SW CQB 45 SW CQB 45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Victoria, Tx
Posts: 3,607
I teach firearms to a college police academy twice a year.

I usually pack a 1911 and we issue Glocks to the cadets.

The talk stirs when I let them handle my piece and many say they want one.

A few years back, there was a older female that went through the class. She told me her spouse bought her a 1911 for duty carry. She got picked up by an area SO.

I ran into her while working an extra job at the hospital about a year ago. She came in to check on a family member while in uniform packing the 1911.

The local SO is heavy with 1911s.

Not dead in Texas.
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 03-03-2019, 01:35 AM
Kevin Rohrer's Avatar
Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Medina, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
The OP's question was if the 1911 was dead in Police Work.

Again, my answer is YES.

Now at my last realty office we had a typewriter. A couple times I used it for addressing envelopes & other quick jobs.

So could you say that "typewriters are alive & well in the Real Estate business"????

No. Of course not. A few typewriters used by some people does not mean squat.

In the Grand Scheme Of Things the single-stack 1911 as a Police sidearm is dead.

Don't confuse the warmth of decomposition as a sign of life.
Apples and oranges. Computers work faster and better than typewriters, but Tupperware does neither over the 1911.

1911s fell out of disfavor due to the cost differences and the perceived benefit of more ammo in a fat-mag gun made by non-gun administrators who control purse-springs. Tupperware is less-useful in street police work than steel.
__________________
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA-Life, and the American Legion.

Don't trust Cavery Grips/American Gripz. He WILL rip you off.
All my 1911s are in .45acp. Why? Because no one makes one in .46cal.--Me
The 9mm is a SD cartridge fit only for women and Europeans--Me

Last edited by Kevin Rohrer; 03-03-2019 at 01:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 03-03-2019, 12:22 PM
SoCalDep SoCalDep is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by toofew1911s View Post
You answered the question yourself - many people are not motivated to spend their own money or even extra time. They simply due the minimum of what is provided and required. I don't care if more training is even offered to these people, because they are going to show marginal improvement anyway even with the additional training. The desire just isn't there for some folks.

When I worked in L.A., I still found the time to go to the range at least twice a week - and more on the weekends weather and time permitting. I and another fellow with L.A. Sheriffs Narcotics Division spent additional time training with each other on hand to hand techniques and additional situational firearm training at an indoor range. No, we weren't paid to do that but we both had the desire to be as good as we could be within practical limits.
Which is the reason for the next sentence after the one you highlighted.... and that costs money.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 03-03-2019, 02:40 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,390
Kevin Rohrer ----------- Before I say this, please note that I own NO plastic guns and only one modern gun. Out of SIXTY firearms. Plus I hold a patent on a type of 1911 magazine, so I am NO Glock Fanboy in any way at all.

That said, Plastic guns are cheaper, lighter & hold more ammo than 1911's. You acknowledge these facts & it's because of these facts that Glox & similar guns have forced 1911's out of common LE usage.

The war is over. Done. The 1911 lost the LE Standard Issue Sidearm fight.

Heck, it wasn't even the gun of choice back in the day anyhow! -------- It was the Model 10 Smith & Wesson and Colt .38 & .357 revolvers that ruled the roost!

They were issued to police FAR more than 1911's ever were.

Nope, as much as I love them, 1911's are toast as Standard Issue sidearm. A scattered few here & there means squat. Like pagers & Points Ignition, they still exist but are such a small segment of the market that they just don't matter in the marketplace.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 03-03-2019, 06:10 PM
Kevin Rohrer's Avatar
Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Medina, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
The war is over. Done. The 1911 lost the LE Standard Issue Sidearm fight.

Nope, as much as I love them, 1911's are toast as Standard Issue sidearm. A scattered few here & there means squat. Like pagers & Points Ignition, they still exist but are such a small segment of the market that they just don't matter in the marketplace.
The original question by the OP was not whether the 1911 " lost the LE Standard Issue Sidearm fight", but whether it was "dead (done) in law enforcement". You have changed the question to one that allows you to speak truthfully about a non-existent fight.

To (once again) answer the OP's question is that the 1911 is "not dead". It still have a following in police work for those who appreciate a high-quality handgun, and will continue to have one. If that was not true, everyone and his brother would not be selling and/or working on them.
__________________
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA-Life, and the American Legion.

Don't trust Cavery Grips/American Gripz. He WILL rip you off.
All my 1911s are in .45acp. Why? Because no one makes one in .46cal.--Me
The 9mm is a SD cartridge fit only for women and Europeans--Me

Last edited by Kevin Rohrer; 03-03-2019 at 06:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 03-03-2019, 06:13 PM
Kevin Rohrer's Avatar
Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Medina, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierra 223 View Post
Kevin Rohrer, what pistol is that? Would love to see a picture of it.
It's a Wilson Combat Protector, which is aimed at LE (no pun intended). This is an early model (2012 build). The newer ones come w/ a light rail.

__________________
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA-Life, and the American Legion.

Don't trust Cavery Grips/American Gripz. He WILL rip you off.
All my 1911s are in .45acp. Why? Because no one makes one in .46cal.--Me
The 9mm is a SD cartridge fit only for women and Europeans--Me
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 03-03-2019, 09:19 PM
sierra 223 sierra 223 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 62
Thanks Kevin, very nice. I carry a Glock 17 for duty. I am on this sight to learn, I want a 1911 for my retirement gift to myself. 30 years in May, a few more to go. Stay safe.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:25 AM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved