we had a talk today at work about the 1911 being dead in LEO work, thoughts? - Page 4 - 1911Forum
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  #76  
Old 01-14-2019, 09:12 PM
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Grandpas50AE Grandpas50AE is offline
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Originally Posted by DRM813 View Post
Some of you know that I have been struggling with the whole capacity issue with the 1911. As the years have rolled on I have witnessed that there is a place in our profession that magazine capacity plays a role. School shootings are one high profile example. SWAT and buy/bust operations are others.

I have been carrying ten round magazines not only on my duty belt when in uniform but also in the pistol. I remind you that I started this profession with a wheel gun and twelve in two speed loaders on the belt.

I do not see it so much as an issue in off duty/civilian carry as the ability to deploy the weapon when you have an element of surprise offsets the need for 20+ rounds in the gun and three 20 round magazines at the ready. I am sure this could spark a whole new thread but I will get to the issue.

Last week I bought a STI Tactical 5.0. I am in the process of making it something that becomes an extension of my hand with regular training sessions. Lots of ammo capacity and my new boss, as of the new year, has approved me to carry the STI. We will see???
As Ken Hackathorn says: "I don't know anyone who has been in a combat situation that has said afterwards they wish they had less capacity". He has a good point, there are definitely situations where "more is better". I have also heard him say on many occasions that the 1911 is "the finest personal combat handgun ever made" - and he usually clarifies that with the caveats that the armorers available to service it at the time were craftsmen, the budgets for maintaining them were well adequate, training budgets allowed for regular training and practice, and the folks using them as such were at least "firearms enthusiasts". Take a few of those parameters away (particularly the maintenance and training budgets), and the equation changes considerably - ergo, in his recent "Gun Guys" video with Bill Wilson they both agree that the Glock is king in the current environment of both LEO and private CCW folks.

Although I would carry a 1911 if still in LEO (if allowed) with a 10R mag and two 10R spares, I would not feel under equipped with a current G17, G19, or Sig either.
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  #77  
Old 01-17-2019, 06:17 PM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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Grandpas50AE

How true.

I have had three Sig P320's for a while now and they shoot like lasers and hold a bunch of ammo in the magazines.

Our new CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) and I were on the range last week and he was shooting them with me. He commented on why I was not using one of the plastic Sig's as a duty weapon yet, as I was singing their praises. I thought for a minute to answer him with my best possible phrase. What I came up with was "plastic guns for me have no soul".

I spend a lot of time around highly motivated and professional gun carrying cops. They almost all carry high capacity plastic guns. The few old timers like me carry metal guns. I never really thought about it but I guess that is the reason. For me they have "SOUL".
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  #78  
Old 01-17-2019, 08:56 PM
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Grandpas50AE Grandpas50AE is offline
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Originally Posted by DRM813 View Post
Grandpas50AE

How true.

I have had three Sig P320's for a while now and they shoot like lasers and hold a bunch of ammo in the magazines.

Our new CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) and I were on the range last week and he was shooting them with me. He commented on why I was not using one of the plastic Sig's as a duty weapon yet, as I was singing their praises. I thought for a minute to answer him with my best possible phrase. What I came up with was "plastic guns for me have no soul".

I spend a lot of time around highly motivated and professional gun carrying cops. They almost all carry high capacity plastic guns. The few old timers like me carry metal guns. I never really thought about it but I guess that is the reason. For me they have "SOUL".
That's pretty much my perspective as well - for me the 1911 (and steel revolvers) have soul, part of which comes from the craftsmen who fitted them and their pride in workmanship, and the other part comes from me in the pleasure I get from know that I'm holding a piece of craftsmanship in my hand when shooting it. I guess I'm old too!
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  #79  
Old 01-18-2019, 03:42 AM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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Originally Posted by Grandpas50AE View Post
As Ken Hackathorn says: "I don't know anyone who has been in a combat situation that has said afterwards they wish they had less capacity". He has a good point, there are definitely situations where "more is better". I have also heard him say on many occasions that the 1911 is "the finest personal combat handgun ever made" - and he usually clarifies that with the caveats that the armorers available to service it at the time were craftsmen, the budgets for maintaining them were well adequate, training budgets allowed for regular training and practice, and the folks using them as such were at least "firearms enthusiasts". Take a few of those parameters away (particularly the maintenance and training budgets), and the equation changes considerably - ergo, in his recent "Gun Guys" video with Bill Wilson they both agree that the Glock is king in the current environment of both LEO and private CCW folks.

Although I would carry a 1911 if still in LEO (if allowed) with a 10R mag and two 10R spares, I would not feel under equipped with a current G17, G19, or Sig either.
Your post brought up an interesting thought for me. Are current LEOs limited in the number of magazines they can carry? If not, would the same wish for greater capacity still be valid if 2 eight round 45acp mags were carried piggyback in each leather magazine pouch? That means 4 extra magazines of 8 rounds each and 9 rounds in the gun for a total of 41 45acp rounds on your person. With 10 rounders even more. With a third magazine pouch, the numbers even get a bit crazy with the only downside of this whole scenario being the added weight of 45 acp rounds vs 9mm rounds. Subtract the difference in weight between the guns and this appears to be more of a weight issue than a capacity one in regard to 9mm vs 45.

Last edited by toofew1911s; 01-18-2019 at 03:45 AM.
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  #80  
Old 01-18-2019, 04:00 AM
Mr_Garth Mr_Garth is offline
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Originally Posted by RogueTS1 View Post
I may have told this story here before, and then again maybe not, but it is a very good one so here goes.

When I was a little boy my father had taken my sister and me out for dinner in downtown Chicago. This would be in the early 70's. My father pulled over into a convenience store to buy some cigarettes. As we waited at the counter two CPD officers walked in. Me being all about guns and such stared at the two officers gun rigs and their black leather motorcycle jackets. They looked so cool!

I noticed that one of the officers had two guns on his belt; a revolver on his strong side and a 1911 cross draw on his weak side. Being a young lad, I asked him why he had two guns on.

He smiled and replied, "The department only issues this .38 special service revolver and we have to carry it ................. but they allow us to carry any kind of pistol we choose as a back up. I therefore choose to carry this Colt 1911 .45 and if I have to draw my gun I can just simply choose to draw my back up gun instead of my service revolver."

My reply came, "Cool!" He tipped his hat to us as we left the store.

I will never forget that convenience store visit.
A story worth telling indeed!

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  #81  
Old 01-18-2019, 08:53 AM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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The 1911 is all about the single action trigger. Capacity is a security blanket for most and high round count fights are a rarity. The real issue, as documented by Ed McGivern in his 1935 book “Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting”, is police training. As my policeman acquaintance in Philadelphia told me, most officers will not train past the department mandates and refuse to attend IDPA, IPSC, or private training of any sort. My personal experience as a volunteer is the same: the gun is a “thing” on the belt whose use is to be avoided.

An eight shot 1911 or six to eight shot revolver is just fine for police work with officers who use good tactics and are proficient with their guns. But, as we repeatedly see in videos, bad use of tactics is commonplace and impatience and desire for the adrenaline rush rule the day. Needless fights occur because the officers are complacent and are more concerned with being “Officer Friendly”(citation there is that study on attributes of officers shot in the line of duty). There is no need to kick down a suspect’s door with a full team when two cops can sit in the car waiting for the suspect to wander outside for his daily 7-11 run. Everyone is impatient and the instant gratification of a raid outweighs the boring apprehension of a groggy suspect in 7-11’s parking lot.

Last edited by tomrkba; 01-18-2019 at 09:00 AM.
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  #82  
Old 01-18-2019, 10:23 AM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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Originally Posted by Starship Enterpris View Post
I will use the same answer as always when the topic of capacity comes up. When you have patrolled the streets of Bed Stuy armed with a six shot .38 spl. revolver with dump pouches for reloads, a 1911 seems like a monster by comparison. Having survived 10 years in the NYPD carrying a revolver, I don't remember ever having to worry about being undergunned.
That is because you were POLICING. You were not engaged in battle. You were using tactics to prevent fights rather than the craziness we are seeing today.

Reloading ANY handgun twice would be a very bad situation. It also means the officer LIKELY screwed up big time and people are getting shot when they should be in handcuffs.

Last edited by tomrkba; 01-18-2019 at 10:27 AM.
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  #83  
Old 01-18-2019, 12:41 PM
drail drail is offline
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Magazine capacity takes a back seat to proficiency and marksmanship in any endeavor. If an officer shows up at the site of an ongoing mass shooting he should have better guns available and should grab one before he exits his vehicle with nothing but the sidearm on his belt. Sidearms are not designed for that role and stuffing more and more rounds into it isn't going to solve the root of the problem. The problem is that our police need much better training whether they realize that fact or not and most do not. They think they know everything they need. Magazine dumps are not a solution. If you watch enough cop cam videos you will clearly see that the current trend is spray and pray. An empty 17 round magazine is just as useless as an empty 7 round magazine.

Last edited by drail; 01-18-2019 at 12:47 PM.
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  #84  
Old 01-18-2019, 10:32 PM
LoboGunLeather LoboGunLeather is offline
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So a bunch of guys had a conversation at work? For us old retired guys the word "work" is an ugly thing to hear, almost as ugly as any argument to the effect that the venerable US Model 1911 pistol is "dead".

I retired in 1995, at which time the oldest 1911's were only 84 years old! Now the design is only 108 years old, and I am still "plenty-nine", and somehow I keep getting along with a good 1911 pistol at my side every day.

No respect for tradition! No respect for perfection! No respect for your elders!

If it weren't for some minor issues with arthritis, cataracts, bum hip, bad knees, a little ulnar neuropathy affecting my strong hand and forearm, I'd be tempted to slap the sap out of a few young coppers who think they know everything.
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  #85  
Old 01-19-2019, 07:55 AM
drail drail is offline
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They not only think they know EVERYTHING - they think they know more than a guy who has been doing this for 20 or 30 years. Some of these guys are so freakin' "tactical" they cannot see reality even when it's right in their face.
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  #86  
Old 01-19-2019, 09:41 AM
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Look, I am as big of a fan of the 1911 as everyone else. I carry one off duty from time to time, but from my perspective (one of the top 20 in size police departments in the country) there are better choices.

First is support/logistics. My agency would have to find an out of the box, duty reliable model, and then procure over 2,000 of them. Assuming a minimum per unit cost of 1 k per pistol, before magazines, holsters/pouches, and night sights, the cost is two million dollars. Then you need to have sufficient armorer support to keep all those pistols running, to keep maintenance logs. I think even the most ardent 1911 fan will admit they are much more labor intensive than polymer guns, so I have a lot more personnel tied up in support in an era when we are fighting for every academy class.

Capacity is an issue. Not because “spray and pray” like some here seem to feel, but because no one ever said they wish they had less ammo after a gunfight. You might not have the luxury of getting back to your cruiser to retrieve a long gun when something steps off. You may be on a bicycle or foot beat. Handguns are lousy people stoppers, most folks that need to be shot need to be shot more than once. I will take higher capacity every time on duty, particularly in uniform.

Training. I am the first to admit many officers need better shooting skills. The problem is giving someone a single action trigger won’t make up for poorly practiced marksmanship skills. The same fundamental issues exist. Additionally, 1911s do not have the grip adjustability many polymer pistols have. That alone can dramatically improve shooting for officers with hands at either side of the size spectrum. Why not take advantage of the added flexibility?

I have had the opportunity to train with individuals who were part of some very high speed, very marksmanship intensive units. Those units have also moved away from the 1911, even as a secondary weapon. That in itself is a clue.

Is a 1911 still a viable choice in LE? Maybe in an agency where the individual officer is responsible for the purchase and armorer level support of their own weapon, provided of course that officer is truly competent. As an issued pistol for large agencies? Not really. There are too many lower cost, reliable, logistically easier options out there.
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  #87  
Old 01-19-2019, 04:15 PM
drail drail is offline
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"... provided of course that officer is truly competent..." There it is.... It's is so depressing that Admin. pukes base their choice of a sidearm on the cost alone. And that's why Glock took the L.E. market away from S&W. I happen to think that Gaston was a terrible engineer but he had some of the most incredible marketing skills we will ever see. Make them an offer they can't refuse. It's all about money. I do agree 100% though with the idea that "issuing" 1911s to people who have no firearm knowledge or experience (common these days) and will most likely only receive VERY minimal training at best (again, because money) is a terrible idea. Of course the accidental discharge rate since switching to Glocks has become a SERIOUS problem - again, lack of training due to cost. Back when I was in the military in the 60s/70s you could go on to any military base in the world and walk all over it and never see a clearing barrel anywhere on that base. Not one. Now they're everywhere on every base. What does that tell you?

Last edited by drail; 01-19-2019 at 04:27 PM.
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  #88  
Old 01-19-2019, 04:54 PM
RickD427 RickD427 is offline
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Originally Posted by AWMP View Post
We had a talk today at work, (been done before but this time it seemed to have more traction) the discussion was the 1911 was dead (done) in law enforcement. The main reason that kept coming up was capacity.

Thoughts?
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Originally Posted by LocoGringo View Post
Tell that to all of the SWAT agencies that seem to keep using it.

In general, yeah, most are going to double stack capacity plastic pistols, but the ones who know how to shoot seem to stick with the 1911...at least some of them.
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Originally Posted by darkcloud View Post
Reading many many articles on police shootings I have come to the conclusion most officer hires now are of the spray and pray variety. Just in the last few weeks the dept just north of where I live had 5 officers shoot 74 rounds into a car and they still only wounded the guy who was "allegedly" trying to do them harm. It really bothers me that anyone who carries for ANY reason does not take the time to shoot accurately with what they carry. For me I shoot best with a single action trigger pull. Second best with a GOOD REVOLVER trigger in double action. Far behind is the long double action triggers of semi autos. At close indoor range my 638 or my 1911 will do just fine.
The 1911 is, by far, my favorite handgun. But having said that I do feel that its usefulness as a law enforcement duty gun is limited.

The reason isn't the magazine capacity (I'll talk more about "Spray and Pray"), it's the trigger qualities that make it so.

During my working days, I did a couple of studies into factors concerning deputy-involved shooting and trends that were observed. A couple of key points were learned: 1) The training level of most deputies was minimal. My agency required a PPC-modeled course of fire every four months and formal training every two years. 2) In shooting situations, deputies react instinctively to the event, there really isn't much deliberative though process involved. That's a really key point. 3) Adrenaline is involved. Adrenaline overdose produces bodily changes to the sense of touch and feel. That doesn't co-exist well with the short trigger travel of a 1911. 4) Once a person fires in a defensive shooting, they tend to keep shooting until something changes. There is a lot of evidence supporting the conclusion that shots will be fired in multiples of one's cylinder/magazine capacity. The first significant thing to change in a shooting is for the shooter to run out of rounds. Suspects don't go down like they do in the movies. It takes some time.

There is also a lot of evidence that the frequency of shooting greatly improves the hand-eye-trigger finger coordination, and can also reduce the effect of adrenaline overdose on physical coordination. Such training levels can also increase the body's adrenaline tolerance, making overdose less likely. But that don't happen shooting a PPC course three times a year. Big department budgets and training availability don't allow for the maintenance of high training levels.

The conventional DA/SA semi-auto trigger seemed to be the best compromise, having a long pull for the first shot and then a shorter pull for faster second shots and time back on target. Interestingly, when my agency went from Beretta 92's to S+W striker fired pistols, the frequency of AD's went way up. But even a long pull DA trigger can be overcome by enough adrenaline. I had a training video showing a police officer running toward a proned-out suspect with a S+W DA/SA semi-auto in hand. When the officer planted her foot to stop, there was enough motion transferred to her trigger finger to fire the weapon.

That's the real drawback to the 1911. The trigger pull is just too short to tolerate less-than-pristine handling. In the real world, there's just too many "less-than-pristine" weapon handlers.

The 1911 does have a lot to offer. The terminal ballistics are quite adequate, it's a very reliable weapon, malfunctions are easily addressed, and it has a very instinctive quality of feel to it.

Those qualities make it a very appropriate weapon for those who can handle its liabilities, but the maintenance of skills required for that require a lot more frequent training than the average LEO gets.
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  #89  
Old 01-19-2019, 08:51 PM
ultra45 ultra45 is offline
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Originally Posted by sechott View Post
It seems that since mag capacity has gone up, so has shooting innocent bystanders. Anyhow I thought the biggest reason 1911s have lost favor with police was due to single action and cocked-locked.
How, in Gods name, is single action/cocked and locked the biggest reason? Thatís absurd IMO.

Having walked the same streets as Starship, I have to say, from experience, my Model 10, was good back in the day and Iíd carry one today if need be. I carried a 1911 in my first LE job before going to the NYPD and carry one off duty now in my 3rd LE career. They make me carry Tupperware on duty.
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  #90  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:25 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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How, in Gods name, is single action/cocked and locked the biggest reason? That’s absurd IMO.
The issue with carrying a cocked n' locked handgun is that most ordinary people have never heard of that sort of thing, and seeing a pistol on an officer's belt with the hammer cocked looks like an accident about to happen, not to mention being intimidating. It's a good thing nobody knows that many striker-fired handguns are fully cocked and need only a slight pull of the trigger to fire. But since there's no external hammer for them to see ignorance is bliss.

As for the 1911 in general, it seems to be losing out in popularity across the board as us old .45 lovers continue to age and the younger guys fully embrace high-cap 9mms. The two dealers I talked to both said the same thing, that 1911s simply don't sell like they used to, and when they do most buyers are choosing 9mm versions because the ammo is so much cheaper. In my younger days a 9mm 1911 was as bad as a 4-cylinder Mustang... you wouldn't want any of your friends to see you with one. A 1911 had to be a .45, and the lack of capacity was supposed to be more than offset by the superior stopping power of the mighty ACP.

Nowadays a duty or defense pistol must hold at least 15 rounds or else it's considered obsolete as a combat weapon. If it holds only 7 or 8 then it'd better be a slim pocket-sized CCW piece. That's just the way it is, folks. Those of us over the age of 40 debated 9mm vs. .45 for the longest time, but the young millennials have spoken and they couldn't care less about the old warhorse and how well it did in the Big One. They want a light, compact gun holding lots of easy-to-shoot bullets, and while there are pros and cons to that mindset it is what it is nowadays.
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Last edited by dsk; 01-30-2019 at 08:56 PM.
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  #91  
Old 02-10-2019, 09:14 PM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
The issue with carrying a cocked n' locked handgun is that most ordinary people have never heard of that sort of thing, and seeing a pistol on an officer's belt with the hammer cocked looks like an accident about to happen, not to mention being intimidating. It's a good thing nobody knows that many striker-fired handguns are fully cocked and need only a slight pull of the trigger to fire. But since there's no external hammer for them to see ignorance is bliss.

As for the 1911 in general, it seems to be losing out in popularity across the board as us old .45 lovers continue to age and the younger guys fully embrace high-cap 9mms. The two dealers I talked to both said the same thing, that 1911s simply don't sell like they used to, and when they do most buyers are choosing 9mm versions because the ammo is so much cheaper. In my younger days a 9mm 1911 was as bad as a 4-cylinder Mustang... you wouldn't want any of your friends to see you with one. A 1911 had to be a .45, and the lack of capacity was supposed to be more than offset by the superior stopping power of the mighty ACP.

Nowadays a duty or defense pistol must hold at least 15 rounds or else it's considered obsolete as a combat weapon. If it holds only 7 or 8 then it'd better be a slim pocket-sized CCW piece. That's just the way it is, folks. Those of us over the age of 40 debated 9mm vs. .45 for the longest time, but the young millennials have spoken and they couldn't care less about the old warhorse and how well it did in the Big One. They want a light, compact gun holding lots of easy-to-shoot bullets, and while there are pros and cons to that mindset it is what it is nowadays.
Very well said!!
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  #92  
Old 02-10-2019, 10:01 PM
Badwolf75 Badwolf75 is offline
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I'm not so sure the young guys aren't interested in the 1911. I get a few asking about mine everytime we do training. The cult of 1911 will live on.
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  #93  
Old 02-21-2019, 11:53 AM
Jhp147 Jhp147 is offline
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Training, cops, and 1911s

Couple of words about "more training" and the related issues. The bottom line is that most officers have more interest in golf, hotrods, Scotch, church, part-time gigs to feed the family, and whatever else than firearms. Firearms are like a fire extinguisher, you mostly carry one and hope you never have to use it. This will not change with the current climate in which being seen as a social worker more than a law enforcement officer is preferred by admin and their bosses. So, I don't think we will see a huge outbreak of dedicated gunfighters willing to invest the time in self-training in the near future-quite the opposite.
On the other hand, firearms training is a lot better now than it was even 20 years ago.
This does not even START to address the concept of equipping a whole department with guns that require some service. ONE firearms officer/rangemaster trying to keep/watch about 300 often neglected duty guns has and does happen, so I don't blame the one guy tasked with doing so for wanting something that you can fix or dunk in a barrel of diesel at the end of the day and expect it to run. With a full schedule of everything else our range god was expected to do, I understand why he would rather keep 300 Glocks running than 300 1911s. And admin loves standardization above anything, so "letting them carry what they want" is not something I see a lot of happening.

BUT HERE IS THE REAL PROBLEM WITH POLICE TRAINING: Admin hates it unless it accomplishes THEIR goals. Every hour of training either takes a butt out of a patrol car seat for an hour or costs overtime. There is not an endless supply of butts or overtime money. If someone is in class, somebody out there has to handle the calls or the calls pile up even faster. Now, add the fact that EVERY TIME SOMETHING GOES WRONG, whether it is a shooting, a bad report, or something connected to allegations-much less misconduct-of some form of victim of insensitivity or abuse-THE POLITICIANS all scream for "more training." Admin is quick to accept it as it removes them from taking the blame, "yeah, we will train our officers and it will never happen again." We get things like the mandated "Canine Encounters" class, 2 hours of information crammed into a four hour day. Learning to yell at dogs or wave them off before you shoot them. Or know that if they are barking and their back hair is up, you may soon be shooting them. Because a couple of boneheads that probably should not have made probation shot a dog that didn't need to be shot. This, like most training, is written by people who are making the pols/admin happy, not creating useful training. And remember, rather than discipline one officer for doing something dumb, it is always much easier to scream "more training."
Thank you for listening to my rant. I know it only touches on 1911s from an angle, but it gets at, hopefully, why "more training" is not easily going to happen in this area. "mandated" training continues to pile up, it never goes away though it might be added to the academy rather than in-service, delaying the time until their butts get into patrol car seats.
As for me, I'm retired after 39 years of carrying what they told me (and being mostly okay with everything from .357 and .41 mags to S&W 3rd Gen and M&Ps). My favorite carry gun is a Combat Commander...and at least two extra mags.
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  #94  
Old 02-21-2019, 05:04 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Yes, It's dead. And yes, there are a few exceptions.

But now that we're at least at 98% Double Stacks as standard issue it can't be logically argued anymore.

Stick a fork in it. Done, Kaput.

However, the 1911 as a GUN (not an police tool) is 100% alive & kicking. Maybe stronger than ever. There are more makers of 1911 now than ever before.

That's all there is to it. Are carburetors dead? Yes, as new, factory equipment on cars, they are deader than Elvis. Game over.

But like 1911'a there is a very much alive culture of carb guys.
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  #95  
Old 02-23-2019, 01:22 AM
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Sorry, but the 1911 will never be dead in police work as long as one guy carries it on-duty. I carry mine on-duty, so it is not dead.

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Last edited by Kevin Rohrer; 02-23-2019 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 02-23-2019, 02:31 AM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
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A lot has been brought up about magazine capacity, gun fighting and training. So i'll relate a 100% documented true story, circa 1998 in Los Angeles, which features two officers, one armed with a Beretta 92 with 3 mags and the other armed with a Smith 4506 and 5 mags. While the Smith is not a 1911 it is a 45 with 8 round mags.

These officers responded to a help call from another unit that had driven into a drive by shooting. Suspect 1 was armed with a Ruger Mini 14 with two 30 round mags taped back to back Nam style, Suspect 2 was armed with a handgun. During the short pursuit the Suspects crashed and Suspect 1 got out and sprayed the first unit, hitting the driving officer in the head and killing him. The backup officers went in foot pursuit of Suspect 1, who turned and opened fire on them. Both officers were Army vets and had worked together for over 1 year. They fired and moved as a team, suppressing the Suspect until the officer with the 45, who later became a DX shooter and instructor, could take the Suspect down with 3 center mass hits. At the end the Officer with the 45 had 5 rounds left and the officer with the Beretta had 7 rounds.

Suspect 2 tried to carjack a vehicle in the traffic jam and another officer gave him two center and one head, but the head was slightly lower right, resulting in a partial eye hit. That suspect lived. The officer has never forgiven himself for jerking that headshot. He also later became a DX, 400 shooter and instructor.

So how does this related to our discussing? I worked with both officers later. Both said if they had 4 more mags on their belts they would have used them to lay down more fire, BUT they also both admit carrying that much weight on a day in and day out basis is unrealistic (Officer 1 is 6'5" 245 lbs, Officer 2 is 5'10 225 lbs, both very fit). Both also say they had trained and worked together to the point they thought there were ready for something like that shootout but afterwards they admitted you can only train so much, the real deal is nothing like training. Finally both said they prefer the 45 over lesser calibers, Officer 2 later went to a Smith 4506 as well, regardless of what the jelly tests say, bigger is better.

Last edited by mark2734; 02-23-2019 at 02:34 AM.
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  #97  
Old 02-23-2019, 09:23 PM
SoCalDep SoCalDep is offline
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I think the 1911 has distinct disadvantages for most people in a law enforcement environment. Many cops today have never, and never will fire a revolver. Think about that for a minute. The idea of a manual safety on a handgun is foreign to most cops today. We have more and more cops coming into the academy with zero experience in firearms.

All these things signal the dramatic (further) decline of the 1911 in law enforcement.

I work for an agency that is very close to the agency mark2734 is talking about. It took a lot of work, and an administration change, to get 1911s authorized. In the two and a half years since its authorization, only around 120 people (of our 9,000+ sworn department) have gone through the process to be certified to carry a 1911. Of those, I'd be surprised if half actually carry it in the field on patrol.

mark2734's department has a much deeper, longer history with the 1911, and due to that it thrives. It is a truly cool experience to go to the Elysian Park academy and see all the 1911s. Several of our instructor staff took the 1911 class and it was memorable.

I say all that because I think there are departments where the 1911 will remain viable for a long time, and others where only the "old timers" carry them... until the "old timers" are gone. Most of our instructors poop-talk the 1911. There are only a few of us who truly love the gun.

I don't carry a 1911 much on duty, but then again, I'm in a primarily training capacity and I'm often using what the students are using or what we're testing/evaluating/investigating for future possible use (right now I'm shooting pistol mounted optics more than anything else on duty). I carry a 1911 off duty, and no matter what, the 1911 remains my favorite pistol of all time.

The 1911 isn't dead. It's certainly becoming more of a niche weapon, but more and more, someone running a 1911 is someone who probably knows how to run a gun, and in my opinion, the person who knows how to run a gun is much more important than the gun itself.
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  #98  
Old 02-24-2019, 12:49 PM
rangertrace rangertrace is offline
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Location: N. Richland Hills, Texas
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Holy Crap!! 9000 cops!! That is a huge Department!!
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  #99  
Old 02-24-2019, 03:27 PM
sierra 223 sierra 223 is offline
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Kevin Rohrer, what pistol is that? Would love to see a picture of it.
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  #100  
Old 02-26-2019, 01:09 PM
D Williams D Williams is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
a DX, 400 shooter
Great post, can you go over this briefly?
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