we had a talk today at work about the 1911 being dead in LEO work, thoughts? - Page 3 - 1911Forum
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  #51  
Old 11-13-2018, 07:13 PM
fastreb fastreb is offline
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I think that if you look around, you'll find fewer and fewer agencies allowing their personnel to carry revolvers or SA semi-autos. My information about King Co., WA is very old but they were the only agency I can name that were issuing the 1911 in the last 25 years that I know of. Now, smaller agencies still see lots of variation but all the bigger ones either issue some type of striker-fired, DA/SA or DAO semi-auto in this day and age. For some, it's the initial cost of the 1911 vs. something else, the additional training costs for others and for a large percentage, it's a liability/image issue.

For my dept., they carried .38 revolvers up to the mid-'80s, when they started allowing revolvers in other calibers and, for the first time, semi-autos (this included personal 1911s). In 1991, the dept. switched to the S&W 5946 in 9mm as the issue weapon, with the 3953 as the only alternate. In the mid-'90s, we switched to .40 caliber but stayed with S&W, issuing the 4043. in 2001, we did testing and switched to Sig .40 cals, the P229 specifically. Right now, we issue the P229R DAK. There are a few alternates that are allowed for detectives or the brass but they are all either Sig or S&W .40 cals, with the one exception of the 3953. We do allow BUGs that have been approved but that list only has S&W J-Frames, Ruger LC9s or the Sig P365 on it.
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  #52  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:17 AM
Lppd4 Lppd4 is offline
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In my 35+ years I have seen the tide turn from S&W model 66's with maybe 10 1911's carried at my department of 35-40 officers. Now we have 80 officers and I think 2 of us carry true 1911's and 2 others carry a Para LDA all the others carry a Glock or an M&P. I have also noticed a shift from .40 and .45 back to 9mm. In fact this year I did not order any pistol ammo but 9mm we have plenty of .40 and .45 in stock and much more of a demand for 9mm
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  #53  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:17 AM
tjpaxton tjpaxton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW CQB 45 View Post
We issue Glock 9mm.

I am the person that issues guns for the dept.

These are my duty carries.

My biggest argument with myself, do I go alloy Nina or heavy 45.

the lightweight usually wins.







at the 911 Memorial on Tuesday....I lost count of the 1911s there.
What is this? If you are right handed and holding your pistol in your right hand, how do you reach your spare magazine on your right side to reload. Shouldn't the extra magazine be on your left side? I've never seen such a thing.
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  #54  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:31 PM
SW CQB 45 SW CQB 45 is offline
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I have mags on my left side.

This is my a mag change should the pistol be in my left hand.

and if I am still alive and run out of mags from my left side....I have one more.
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  #55  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:41 PM
Odinkar 105 Odinkar 105 is offline
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Surprise to me and the Remington R1 Tactical I carry on duty. I was carrying a S&W 1911 E series before that. Went to take so I didn't have to carry 4 spare mags.
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  #56  
Old 11-15-2018, 07:11 PM
bluedog1 bluedog1 is offline
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Over the last year, I've spoken to 3 SJPD officers. Each one told me that if their unit allowed 1911s, they would gladly upgrade from a Glock,
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  #57  
Old 11-15-2018, 07:24 PM
darkcloud darkcloud is offline
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Reading many many articles on police shootings I have come to the conclusion most officer hires now are of the spray and pray variety. Just in the last few weeks the dept just north of where I live had 5 officers shoot 74 rounds into a car and they still only wounded the guy who was "allegedly" trying to do them harm. It really bothers me that anyone who carries for ANY reason does not take the time to shoot accurately with what they carry. For me I shoot best with a single action trigger pull. Second best with a GOOD REVOLVER trigger in double action. Far behind is the long double action triggers of semi autos. At close indoor range my 638 or my 1911 will do just fine.
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  #58  
Old 11-16-2018, 07:29 AM
drail drail is offline
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The officers shoot as well as they are taught. If their training is lacking (and in most departments it is) it will show on their score at qual. and on the street. Most new hires today are NOT going to be gun people simply because our culture has changed a great deal. Same thing goes for military inductees. I cannot even imagine being a Drill Instructor today with the restrictions they have been placed under and the snowflakes they are given to work with.
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  #59  
Old 11-16-2018, 01:38 PM
Lppd4 Lppd4 is offline
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
The officers shoot as well as they are taught. If their training is lacking (and in most departments it is) it will show on their score at qual. and on the street. Most new hires today are NOT going to be gun people simply because our culture has changed a great deal. Same thing goes for military inductees. I cannot even imagine being a Drill Instructor today with the restrictions they have been placed under and the snowflakes they are given to work with.
I will go a step farther most won't retain what they are taught because they don't practice and seek out further instruction. I see it every time we qualify. It's like they don't remember anything that myself or another instructor has taught them. When we do teach a class the common evaluation say that they enjoyed the class and we need to do more of this type training. but its just lip service. We have a monthly range day. You can go shoot on duty, we provide the ammo and instruction if you want or need it and only about 15-20 of our 80 officers take advantage of the range time.
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  #60  
Old 11-16-2018, 02:19 PM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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Originally Posted by sechott View Post
It seems that since mag capacity has gone up, so has shooting innocent bystanders. Anyhow I thought the biggest reason 1911s have lost favor with police was due to single action and cocked-locked.
Please stop trying to correlate capacity with misses. It just demonstrates lack of thinking. The problem, as always, comes down to WISDOM and TRAINING. Ed McGivern lamented about the state of police training and others have noted ammo and training are the first to go after budget cuts. Hiring marginal candidates does not do much for making good decisions.
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  #61  
Old 11-17-2018, 01:03 PM
drail drail is offline
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Lppd4 - That is the first and only time I have heard of a dept. that provides range time and ammo to its officers - and only a small percentage will even take advantage of it. I have been preaching for many years that L.E. Depts. need to provide all the ammo and range time to LEOs that they want. Apparently I was mistaken. Unbelievable.
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  #62  
Old 11-17-2018, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
Lppd4 - That is the first and only time I have heard of a dept. that provides range time and ammo to its officers - and only a small percentage will even take advantage of it. I have been preaching for many years that L.E. Depts. need to provide all the ammo and range time to LEOs that they want. Apparently I was mistaken. Unbelievable.
I agree, but as we all know: the Almighty Dollar has the last word. Time is Money, and Ammo is Money. There are finite amounts of both available, and the Dollar dictates that. A 1911-armed village PD in my county does that, but they only have a half dozen or so officers, a supportive Chief, a supportive Public Safety Committee, and a an annual budget that always has a surplus.
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  #63  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:18 PM
prairieviper prairieviper is offline
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
High capacity pistols suddenly became "necessary" at the same time "spray and pray" became an acceptable standard. If the operator can't hit the target then we'll just give them more rounds and a put more magazines on their belt because that's easier and cheaper than requiring markmanship proficiency.

+1. And there you have it.
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  #64  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:25 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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The last I heard, the PD here allowed a 1911 if you could qualify at the Instructor level, 96% on the APOST instead of the patrol 70%. I only know of one for sure, what I see are Glocks and SIGs. Fair number of P220s for .45 aficionados.
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  #65  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:12 PM
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I posted another thread that I see LEO's packing 1911's on LivePD. Saw one last nite carrying cocked & locked.
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  #66  
Old 11-19-2018, 10:18 AM
Lppd4 Lppd4 is offline
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
Lppd4 - That is the first and only time I have heard of a dept. that provides range time and ammo to its officers - and only a small percentage will even take advantage of it. I have been preaching for many years that L.E. Depts. need to provide all the ammo and range time to LEOs that they want. Apparently I was mistaken. Unbelievable.
We provide duty ammo also. If not I promise you we would have guys carrying 20 year old ammo. We qualify with last years ammo and give them a brand new box of Speer Gold dots or Winchester rangers. We supply 9mm, .40, .45acp and .223/5.56. In my experience very few officers take their firearms training seriously. Our qualification is not difficult I'm quite certain my wife (she's not a shooter) could easily pass it after a 5 minute instruction/warm up period.

Maybe a bit off topic but does anyone watch Chicago PD? at least one of their guys carries what appears to be a custom 1911
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  #67  
Old 11-19-2018, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Lppd4 View Post
Maybe a bit off topic but does anyone watch Chicago PD? at least one of their guys carries what appears to be a custom 1911
I believe it is a Wilson EDC X9.
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  #68  
Old 11-24-2018, 11:49 PM
1054FPS 1054FPS is offline
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Originally Posted by LocoGringo View Post
Tell that to all of the SWAT agencies that seem to keep using it.

In general, yeah, most are going to double stack capacity plastic pistols, but the ones who know how to shoot seem to stick with the 1911...at least some of them.
I'm not sure using SWAT as an example is all the telling of the larger trend. SWAT fill a far different role than a beat cop. When you have an entire team with you, all armed with long guns, the qualities a pistol needs to have start changing drastically, compared to a solo cop or a guy and his partner, who may be a ways from their cars and their long guns.


Modern polymer and alloy pistols have many advantages over a 1911, for those who look at it honestly:

-Less expensive
-Fewer parts
-Simpler to maintain
-Lighter weight (this is a considerable advantage nobody has mentioned yet, especially in this day and age of ergonomic injuries and cops)
-Higher capacity
-Simpler manual of arms
-Easier to teach trainees to shoot effectively

And the advantage that starts wars...reliability. I began a thread a number of years ago which was posted on by literally hundreds of forum members here...all fans of the 1911. Glocks, SIG's, HK's, S&W's, etc., all hovered at about a 90% success rate over a period of years of people posting, as far as failures during the first 300 rounds. Some of the "big name" 1911 companies had as bad as a 50% failure rate during the same 300 rounds. I should explain that the failure rate was for a pistol that experienced a single malfunction during the first 300 rounds, not that only 50% of rounds fired. Haha. My point being, yes, a 1911 can be perfectly reliable. But no, it is not as likely to happen as with many more modern pistols:
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=252140


It's totally fine to carry a weapon we have a fondness for, and are proficient with, even if it has some disadvantages. My complaint is when people in a discussion pretend the disadvantages don't exist. As for accuracy, which many 1911 fans use as the primary reason; I personally shoot more accurately with my two P320's than with any other pistols I've owned, including my 1911's and Classic SIGs.
One thing to note on the reliability of 1911s vs Glock/HK etc, glocks are made my Glock and hks are made by hk. 1911s are made by so many different manufacturers and that is the reason for so many lower end guns that have questionable reliability. I carry a 1911 for duty and personally I don’t mind spending the money for what I consider reliable so I carry a Wilson that has been 100% reliable. I’ve had around 9 different glocks some of which have had malfunctions and one gen 4 glock 34 that had the trigger safety break, luckily during training. My department they make you jump through hoops to carry a 1911 over other guns and I think the main reason is because as it’s been said a lot on this forum, most cops are not gun guys. I shoot competition fairly often and always try to get coworkers to go out and rarely anyone will go. With the 1911 generally being more maintenance sensitive and the general police officer that maybe cleans their Glock every two years or so, let alone ever changing any springs (not that they shoot enough to ever wear any out). They aren’t obsolete and I don’t care what officers carry as long as they can hit what they end up
having to shoot at. The bigger investment for everyone is training, over what gun they are carrying. I have no issue carrying a Glock which I did for a few years but I prefer a 1911. If there’s a Mumbai style attack or a prolonged active shooter scenario then I’m getting to my rifle.
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  #69  
Old 11-29-2018, 01:49 AM
Johannes Johannes is offline
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I carried a MK IV Series 80 for the last 21 years of my police career and retired with it. The weapon performed flawlessly and every year our armorer would inspect and replace any worn parts.

It's a fine weapon however, I do believe they make better tools for cops these days and if I ever found my self in a position of responding to an active shooter I'd prefer to have a whole lot more than 25 rounds on board, without the need to change magazines after every eight shots.

Nothing against 1911s, I still have mine and a WWII 1911A1 that's had only two boxes fired through it.
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  #70  
Old 11-29-2018, 08:53 PM
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I did go a little different route for a new duty weapon, STI Tactical, 9mm.
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  #71  
Old 12-28-2018, 01:21 AM
Ipacka1911 Ipacka1911 is offline
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I have been carrying a Rock River Tactical with TLR HL in my trusted 6280 STX for a few years before that a Kimber TLE RL. I have been a firearms instructor for about 5 years. We take the new guys to the range before going to the academy to let them shoot a few different guns before the my chose what to carry. Things I have noticed....

10 years ago when I started 300 people would be testing for 4 jobs. Out of those 300, 250 would pass the physical and move the written. Now if we get 40 at the test and 15 pass it is considered good. When these guys go to the range, many have never shot.

A plastic fantastic gun is much easier to teach to shoot, clean, and maintain. While 1911 maitence is second nature to anyone around one, these kids (using that term losely) have a hard time trying to understand a duty belt, a 1911 may as well be a rubrics cube. I am puzzled with some of these people on wanting to be cops that have never handled a firearm before but want to carry one everyday. That is a whole other topic though.

Anyway my two cents, new guys just don’t understand a 1911 and changing a spring might as well be fitting a new barrel.
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  #72  
Old 01-13-2019, 07:51 PM
PD Sgt. PD Sgt. is offline
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I seem to recall Ken Hackathorn saying the 1911 is the best pistol to use to shoot someone with, and the worst pistol in the world to not shoot someone with.

The reality of the situation is most officers will never shoot anyone. Many will point weapons at people that pose a real threat, but will not have to shoot them. I can say from personal experience that at the last second I have come off of the trigger (DA/SA) on way more people than not. Most of those people would have been shot had I been carrying a 1911. Would the shootings have been good? Absolutely! But that extra fraction gained with the harder trigger meant I did not end up having to take those lives (potentially).

Now don’t get me wrong, I have no problem shooting people who need to be shot. But as a cop you spend way more time not shooting people than shooting. What revolvers, DA autos, and most striker fired pistols do is give an extra split second in that decision making process for the officer to come off the trigger if something changes. The greatest strength of the 1911 (that awesome SA trigger) can also be viewed as its greatest liability in domestic LE.
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  #73  
Old 01-14-2019, 06:19 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Why LEO's usually don't carry a 1911 handgun.....

I worked for the largest law enforcement agency in Florida at one time. The reason why the agency I worked for did not allow a choice on carrying a 1911 as a duty handgun, was due to monetary issues..... Every sworn Deputy at the agency where I worked was issued a Glock handgun, but did have a choice in the caliber.....either 9mm, .40, or .45acp.

A 1911 was not an option, since the agency felt there may be too much liability using a single action only trigger with a gun carried "cocked and locked".....so extra training would have been necessary. With a department that had 1,600 Deputies at that time. additional training would have been expensive. In addition, they wanted high capacity pistols, rather than a more expensive all steel 1911 that only carried up to 10+1 rounds chambered with a .38 super or 9mm when cocked and locked..... Glock representatives "sold" the department decision makers on the "Glock Safe Action Trigger."

The only 1911 "style" pistol I would have preferred to carry as a LEO would have been an STI 2011 .38 super Commander. This gun would be far too expensive for the agency, however, if they allowed us to purchase our own duty firearm, I would have used one. When an agency buys all of the same style pistols and issues them as a duty weapon, it is easy on the armorers and the budget to fix and maintain the duty weapons if there is an issue.

Now that I am retired, my most often carried concealed weapon is an STI 2011 Commander .38 super with 15+1 rounds in the flush fit mag. I carry one additional 126mm mag with 16 rounds......if I need more than 32 rounds of ammo for self defense, I am probably facing overwhelming odds and will most likely dead anyway....! However, nobody ever complains about having too much ammo in a gun fight....

I handload all of my self defense rounds, and my .38 super +P JHP rounds are similar in ballistics to a slightly lower velocity (1350 fps) .357 magnum round out of my 4.25" commander length barrel..... I like and use 125 gr. Speer Gold dot bullets, or 124 gr. Hornady XTP's for self defense loads.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 01-14-2019 at 06:27 AM.
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  #74  
Old 01-14-2019, 01:38 PM
Chief1297 Chief1297 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
......if I need more than 32 rounds of ammo for self defense, I am probably facing overwhelming odds and will most likely dead anyway....!
You know, 32 rounds are enough until it isn't....




Sorry, just had to say it...lol
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  #75  
Old 01-14-2019, 07:51 PM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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Some of you know that I have been struggling with the whole capacity issue with the 1911. As the years have rolled on I have witnessed that there is a place in our profession that magazine capacity plays a role. School shootings are one high profile example. SWAT and buy/bust operations are others.

I have been carrying ten round magazines not only on my duty belt when in uniform but also in the pistol. I remind you that I started this profession with a wheel gun and twelve in two speed loaders on the belt.

I do not see it so much as an issue in off duty/civilian carry as the ability to deploy the weapon when you have an element of surprise offsets the need for 20+ rounds in the gun and three 20 round magazines at the ready. I am sure this could spark a whole new thread but I will get to the issue.

Last week I bought a STI Tactical 5.0. I am in the process of making it something that becomes an extension of my hand with regular training sessions. Lots of ammo capacity and my new boss, as of the new year, has approved me to carry the STI. We will see???
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