we had a talk today at work about the 1911 being dead in LEO work, thoughts? - Page 10 - 1911Forum
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  #226  
Old 09-02-2019, 04:39 PM
TEXMEX TEXMEX is offline
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Before there was a Texas Highway Patrol, there was the Texas Highway Motor Patrol (1929). They were issued 1911s. They had about 60 officers, so not all that large by today's standards but a good sized agency back then. The MPs and Shore Patrol were issued 1911s way back when. Interesting that even when 1911s were available or had been issued, Texas Highway Patrol and the Air Force Police were issued 38 Special revolvers in place of 1911s. Many large agencies (NYPD for example) don't issue handguns. You purchase your own from an approved list. 1911s aren't on the list.
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  #227  
Old 09-02-2019, 06:08 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Its a tough debate. It really is.

NOT everyone can get their hand to fit the grip on a semi auto, and not everyone can get a glock to fit there hand. Trust me, glock doesn't fit my hand at all.

Revolvers and 1911 and berretta 92 will.

Its really hard to make a case that a DA/SA semi auto or a SA 1911 with its multiple safeties is going to be dangerous compared to a gun that has a "safety" built into a trigger, that only deactivates when you pull the trigger back.

Its sort of like having your kid run around around the house unplugging electrical cords with a wet hanky.
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  #228  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:42 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
It's ironic that the 1911 has never been issued large-scale to any major law enforcement agencies in its entire 108-year life.
You are excepting US Army Military Police Corps and the US Marines MP units.
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  #229  
Old 09-03-2019, 10:00 PM
JNW JNW is offline
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I am not a LEO and have no official training in use of force. I just watched a link in this thread of justified law enforcement shootings. I shoot handguns often - about 7,000 rounds a year. Given what I know of firearms if I were in law enforcement I would want to carry a handgun that I knew I could shoot extremely well AND have lots of rounds on hand. I’d want a 2011 in 9mm. And I would train constantly. Then again I’m a gun guy. I’ve owned Glocks and Walthers and can shoot them well, but not as well as a 1911.
In watching the videos I was amazed at how often a suspect, after being shot multiple times, even with a .223 rifle, continued to stand, move and still not obey officers. It certainly helped me understand how suspects can end up getting shot multiple times. I have enormous respect for anyone who puts a badge on to go to work.

On another note I think politicians should have to wear body cameras and have them on all the time. We would get to see some pretty interesting and embarrassing conversations and actions.
Regards,
Jeff
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  #230  
Old 09-04-2019, 01:37 AM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Originally Posted by JNW View Post
I am not a LEO and have no official training in use of force. I just watched a link in this thread of justified law enforcement shootings. I shoot handguns often - about 7,000 rounds a year. Given what I know of firearms if I were in law enforcement I would want to carry a handgun that I knew I could shoot extremely well AND have lots of rounds on hand. Iíd want a 2011 in 9mm. And I would train constantly. Then again Iím a gun guy. Iíve owned Glocks and Walthers and can shoot them well, but not as well as a 1911.
In watching the videos I was amazed at how often a suspect, after being shot multiple times, even with a .223 rifle, continued to stand, move and still not obey officers. It certainly helped me understand how suspects can end up getting shot multiple times. I have enormous respect for anyone who puts a badge on to go to work.

On another note I think politicians should have to wear body cameras and have them on all the time. We would get to see some pretty interesting and embarrassing conversations and actions.
Regards,
Jeff
There is no instant impact on someone when shot, unless the bullet goes into the brain or spinal column.

Drugs have an ability to turn a 140 pound drug addict into the incredible hulk who can out wrestle 2, even 4 230 pound cops at the same time. Even take multiple hits in the chest with shotgun slugs.

.223 hp used by police is ALOT more powerful then your 25acp, 32acp, or 380. Yet people can still keep fighting when shot with that .223 round. So why do those little acp calibers keep being sold as self defense rounds
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  #231  
Old 09-04-2019, 09:19 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
.223 hp used by police is ALOT more powerful then your 25acp, 32acp, or 380. Yet people can still keep fighting when shot with that .223 round. So why do those little acp calibers keep being sold as self defense rounds
For the same reason that the 9mm round is so popular as a self-defense round: because it is easy for Europeans, women, and chair-warmers to shoot. Anything more powerful that that would require more training than most people want to go thru. Nowadays, cheap and easy trumps capable every-time.
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  #232  
Old 09-04-2019, 09:49 PM
Monty_d_33 Monty_d_33 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
For the same reason that the 9mm round is so popular as a self-defense round: because it is easy for Europeans, women, and chair-warmers to shoot. Anything more powerful that that would require more training than most people want to go thru. Nowadays, cheap and easy trumps capable every-time.


I shoot 9mm, guess Iíll figure out which of those I am


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  #233  
Old 09-08-2019, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Monty_d_33 View Post
I shoot 9mm, guess Iíll figure out which of those I am
Or, you could be a victim of that dumbing-down policy.
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All my 1911s are in .45acp. Why? Because no one makes one in .46cal.--Me
The 9mm is a SD cartridge fit only for women and Europeans--Me
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  #234  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:01 AM
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ECHO154 ECHO154 is offline
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In regards to 1911's limited capacity....... I carried 9 in the weapon and 30 on my belt( 1911 CQB)....I practice, sometimes daily,(I live in the country )on double taps and 2-1 drills as well as mag reloads. I don't feel it's a limitation. I would hate to go up against Jerry Miculek with anything! He outshot LAPD's finest, they had M92's I think, with a plain Jane S&W combat special 18 rounds on three targets to boot The point being...."how do you get to Carnegie hall.......you must practice....a shot to the head with a 22 is better than a close miss with a 223. http://www.Miculek.com
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  #235  
Old 09-13-2019, 08:23 PM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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Originally Posted by jr24 View Post
I watch quite a bit of Live PD and on the current departments, at least two officers in Salinas, CA and one in ... crap I forget where in Ohio carry 1911s.

Williamson Co., TX sheriff's deputy was just packing one on an episode tonite.
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  #236  
Old 09-15-2019, 08:03 PM
DD1911 DD1911 is offline
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I trained many police officers when I was an LEO and civilians for their concealed carry permits after. I have not come across any LEO's carrying 1911's, which is sad. I have come across a few civilians who carry 1911's and I would rather take on the police than any of these guys. Generally speaking, those carrying 1911's are serious about being really good with their chosen weapon.

High capacity guns and spray and pray methodology has replaced marksmanship, something I battled constantly as a trainer. You are responsible for every bullet that leaves the gun. If it isn't in the bad guy, where did it go? And if you need to crank off 15 rounds to get me, it will not do you much good if I can hit you with my first round.

The key to winning a gunfight is not who has the most rounds, the biggest caliber, or the most toys bolted to your gun. The winner is the one who disables the opponent without being disabled himself. That is accomplished through speed and accuracy.

I find the grip, site picture, and trigger of the 1911 allow me to fire more accurately and faster that I ever could with the P226 I carried for decades as an LEO. I will take that over 15+1 capacity any day.

Last edited by DD1911; 09-15-2019 at 08:09 PM.
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  #237  
Old 09-15-2019, 09:51 PM
rangertrace rangertrace is offline
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Originally Posted by DD1911 View Post
I trained many police officers when I was an LEO and civilians for their concealed carry permits after. I have not come across any LEO's carrying 1911's, which is sad. I have come across a few civilians who carry 1911's and I would rather take on the police than any of these guys. Generally speaking, those carrying 1911's are serious about being really good with their chosen weapon.

High capacity guns and spray and pray methodology has replaced marksmanship, something I battled constantly as a trainer. You are responsible for every bullet that leaves the gun. If it isn't in the bad guy, where did it go? And if you need to crank off 15 rounds to get me, it will not do you much good if I can hit you with my first round.

The key to winning a gunfight is not who has the most rounds, the biggest caliber, or the most toys bolted to your gun. The winner is the one who disables the opponent without being disabled himself. That is accomplished through speed and accuracy.

I find the grip, site picture, and trigger of the 1911 allow me to fire more accurately and faster that I ever could with the P226 I carried for decades as an LEO. I will take that over 15+1 capacity any day.
Or carry a double stack 1911 and have the best of both worlds.....
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  #238  
Old 09-15-2019, 09:56 PM
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Or carry a double stack 1911 and have the best of both worlds.....
I would need hands like LeBron James has to do that. But, this Saturday, STI is bringing their guns into a LGS to allow people to fire them. I will try a double-stack, but that thing must be really heavy.
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  #239  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:40 AM
rangertrace rangertrace is offline
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I would need hands like LeBron James has to do that. But, this Saturday, STI is bringing their guns into a LGS to allow people to fire them. I will try a double-stack, but that thing must be really heavy.

An STI (or clone) weighs less than an all steel Government 1911. Fully loaded it may weigh more, but you really can't count that weight against it, since you're after more rounds on the belt anyway.
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  #240  
Old 09-16-2019, 12:18 PM
jpd202 jpd202 is offline
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On duty I carry an A.E. Nelson quad mag pouch with 4 Wilson 8rd ETM mags, plus one in my duty TRP. Off-duty, daily wear is one Wilson 10rd mag plus one in my TRP. If going away from the house, I add another Wilson 10rd. I realize I still don't have as many rounds as some other brands, but my TRP shoots so well I feel confident that I will be able to hit what needs to be hit. If I can't do it with my TRP and the spares I have, I probably am into something I need to call an airstrike for and I really had no business being there in the first place...
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  #241  
Old 09-18-2019, 08:02 PM
DD1911 DD1911 is offline
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Or carry a double stack 1911 and have the best of both worlds.....
Therefore ruining the slim, easy to hold tight grip, which is one of the benefits of the 1911. I have big hands, but still find double stack pistols cumbersome.

As a civilian, I am no longer tasked with taking bad guys into custody as I was when I was an LEO; my mission now is to force a break in contact. I am confident in my ability to make the first 8 rounds do so.

Last edited by DD1911; 09-18-2019 at 08:05 PM.
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  #242  
Old 09-20-2019, 10:25 AM
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I am confident in my ability to make the first 8 rounds do so.
This seems to be the problem w/ all those advocates for using guns that hold lots of itty, bitty, bullets. Apparently they don't understand that they can't miss fast enough to makeup for not using larger ones. It's that, or they harbor delusions of recreating John McClain's feat of retaking the Nakatomi Building from Hans Gruber.
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All my 1911s are in .45acp. Why? Because no one makes one in .46cal.--Me
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  #243  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:29 AM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
This seems to be the problem w/ all those advocates for using guns that hold lots of itty, bitty, bullets. Apparently they don't understand that they can't miss fast enough to makeup for not using larger ones. It's that, or they harbor delusions of recreating John McClain's feat of retaking the Nakatomi Building from Hans Gruber.
I hope you do not take offense but I disagree. Shots on target win gunfights. A miss is a miss no matter what caliber was fired.

Having been to probably more than a thousand autopsies and lots and lots of suicides and homicides, I have formed a personal opinion that any handgun, no matter the caliber, is like an insurance policy. Something you hope to never use but when needed you want the best money can buy ( I read that somewhere and did not make it up). I have never found anyone lying on the ground saying "they shot at me with a .45 so I thought I better quit what I was doing and lie down".

People that are shot with handguns have about a 90% survival rate if they make it to a trauma center.

Rifles are a different matter. There are large tears in flesh from the velocity that the temporary stretch cavity causes as the bullet passes. These large tearing wounds are caused by itty bitty .22 caliber bullets.

Having had personal experience on the two way shooting range I choose a rifle every time I think I am going to go in harms way. I never sat at home on my administrative leave after a shooting and thought "you know, my gun just held too many bullets".
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  #244  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:48 AM
Monty_d_33 Monty_d_33 is offline
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I hope you do not take offense but I disagree. Shots on target win gunfights. A miss is a miss no matter what caliber was fired.



Having been to probably more than a thousand autopsies and lots and lots of suicides and homicides, I have formed a personal opinion that any handgun, no matter the caliber, is like an insurance policy. Something you hope to never use but when needed you want the best money can buy ( I read that somewhere and did not make it up). I have never found anyone lying on the ground saying "they shot at me with a .45 so I thought I better quit what I was doing and lie down".



People that are shot with handguns have about a 90% survival rate if they make it to a trauma center.



Rifles are a different matter. There are large tears in flesh from the velocity that the temporary stretch cavity causes as the bullet passes. These large tearing wounds are caused by itty bitty .22 caliber bullets.



Having had personal experience on the two way shooting range I choose a rifle every time I think I am going to go in harms way. I never sat at home on my administrative leave after a shooting and thought "you know, my gun just held too many bullets".





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  #245  
Old 09-21-2019, 04:12 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Originally Posted by DRM813 View Post
I hope you do not take offense but I disagree. Shots on target win gunfights. A miss is a miss no matter what caliber was fired.

Having been to probably more than a thousand autopsies and lots and lots of suicides and homicides, I have formed a personal opinion that any handgun, no matter the caliber, is like an insurance policy. Something you hope to never use but when needed you want the best money can buy ( I read that somewhere and did not make it up). I have never found anyone lying on the ground saying "they shot at me with a .45 so I thought I better quit what I was doing and lie down".

People that are shot with handguns have about a 90% survival rate if they make it to a trauma center.

Rifles are a different matter. There are large tears in flesh from the velocity that the temporary stretch cavity causes as the bullet passes. These large tearing wounds are caused by itty bitty .22 caliber bullets.

Having had personal experience on the two way shooting range I choose a rifle every time I think I am going to go in harms way. I never sat at home on my administrative leave after a shooting and thought "you know, my gun just held too many bullets".
Agree w/ everything you say. And this has to do w/ the topic, how?
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All my 1911s are in .45acp. Why? Because no one makes one in .46cal.--Me
The 9mm is a SD cartridge fit only for women and Europeans--Me
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  #246  
Old 09-28-2019, 08:53 PM
TEXMEX TEXMEX is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
I would need hands like LeBron James has to do that. But, this Saturday, STI is bringing their guns into a LGS to allow people to fire them. I will try a double-stack, but that thing must be really heavy.
Para Ordnance and the STI double stack grips are actually a little shorter front to back and a little narrower than a traditional single stack 1911. It sounds like a magic trick, but when these double stack frames were being developed, they really concentrated on making them as slim as possible by leaving off anything that was not absolutely necessary. If I remember correctly, Chip McCormick designed the 2011 frame that STI uses. The grips are integral with the frame in order to reduce the width. The length of the 45 ACP cartridge dictated the size of the magazine so it didn't need to be any longer front to back than a single stack. The 2011 grip frame is also much lighter than a steel single stack so it makes up a lot for the added weight of the extra cartridges. Chip McCormick was a professional shooter so he knew that if the grip didn't fit the human hand, no serious shooter would go for it.
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  #247  
Old 09-28-2019, 10:21 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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I was unable to get to the STI Experience last week due to too many f-ing things going-on that day. I will try to get to that gun store tomorrow and take a look at the "P". I would really like to duty-carry a "P" Duo w/ a Leopold red dot, but only in .45 (provided my hands will accommodate it).
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Don't trust Cavery Grips/American Gripz. He WILL rip you off.
All my 1911s are in .45acp. Why? Because no one makes one in .46cal.--Me
The 9mm is a SD cartridge fit only for women and Europeans--Me
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  #248  
Old 10-03-2019, 08:21 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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I got to the dealer and tried an STI in .45. The gun fit my hands w/o a problem, so I ordered a P Duo today in God's Caliber. The expected wait is 3+ months. I will order another Ted Blocker leather holster for it along w/ a Leopold red dot sight.
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Don't trust Cavery Grips/American Gripz. He WILL rip you off.
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The 9mm is a SD cartridge fit only for women and Europeans--Me
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