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  #1  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:25 PM
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AWMP AWMP is offline
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we had a talk today at work about the 1911 being dead in LEO work, thoughts?

We had a talk today at work, (been done before but this time it seemed to have more traction) the discussion was the 1911 was dead (done) in law enforcement. The main reason that kept coming up was capacity.

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:04 PM
f1racefan f1racefan is offline
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I think using a single stack anything for a duty weapon is not exhibiting very clear thinking. Yeah, most cops carry spare mags, but having to change a mag is something you hope you don't get to. Most good double stack mags in 9mm hold at least 15 rounds, with some holding 17 or 18. That's a lot of rounds to expend before you have to replenish the weapon with a mag change.

If you really want a 1911 duty weapon, look at the 2011 double stacks. I have an STI Guardian 2011 in 9mm. It holds 17 + 1 rounds and it accurate and reliable. I'd have no issue carrying that as a duty weapon.
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Old 09-12-2018, 05:55 PM
LocoGringo LocoGringo is offline
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Tell that to all of the SWAT agencies that seem to keep using it.

In general, yeah, most are going to double stack capacity plastic pistols, but the ones who know how to shoot seem to stick with the 1911...at least some of them.
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  #4  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:11 PM
Starship Enterpris Starship Enterpris is offline
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I will use the same answer as always when the topic of capacity comes up. When you have patrolled the streets of Bed Stuy armed with a six shot .38 spl. revolver with dump pouches for reloads, a 1911 seems like a monster by comparison. Having survived 10 years in the NYPD carrying a revolver, I don't remember ever having to worry about being undergunned.
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:54 PM
sechott sechott is offline
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It seems that since mag capacity has gone up, so has shooting innocent bystanders. Anyhow I thought the biggest reason 1911s have lost favor with police was due to single action and cocked-locked.
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:33 PM
Badwolf75 Badwolf75 is offline
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I'll keep the title of this topic in mind when I take my Kimber TLE to work in the morning.
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:05 PM
SW CQB 45 SW CQB 45 is offline
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We issue Glock 9mm.

I am the person that issues guns for the dept.

These are my duty carries.

My biggest argument with myself, do I go alloy Nina or heavy 45.

the lightweight usually wins.







at the 911 Memorial on Tuesday....I lost count of the 1911s there.

Last edited by SW CQB 45; 09-12-2018 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:27 PM
Smokey613 Smokey613 is offline
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This is my current duty gun. It has been with me since 1989. It will suffice until I retire again later this year, this time for good.
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  #9  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:06 AM
SW CQB 45 SW CQB 45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Smokey613 View Post
This is my current duty gun. It has been with me since 1989. It will suffice until I retire again later this year, this time for good.
Very Nice!

if those are original Wilson night sights from the 90s, I am assuming the tritium done left!
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  #10  
Old 09-13-2018, 09:40 AM
dbarn dbarn is offline
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Our department will not allow patrol to carry 1911s. When I was on patrol this did not seem fair. Striker fired, DA/SA only in 9mm or higher caliber. The main reason cited was capacity and that there are some that only shoot their weapons during qualifications, being better served with the above weapons.

CID and SWAT are allowed to carry 1911's if they attend a 1911 instructed course that includes placing emphasis on drawing the weapon and flipping the safety off and flipping the safety back on when holstering repeatedly. Of course proficiency must be proved.
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  #11  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:48 AM
drail drail is offline
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High capacity pistols suddenly became "necessary" at the same time "spray and pray" became an acceptable standard. If the operator can't hit the target then we'll just give them more rounds and a put more magazines on their belt because that's easier and cheaper than requiring markmanship proficiency.

Last edited by drail; 09-13-2018 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:54 AM
tjpaxton tjpaxton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWMP View Post
We had a talk today at work, (been done before but this time it seemed to have more traction) the discussion was the 1911 was dead (done) in law enforcement. The main reason that kept coming up was capacity.

Thoughts?
I think the reason the 1911 has a small percentage of users in law enforcement is because of a few reasons.

1. A decent 1911 cost 2-3 times more than a plastic striker fired pistol. Police agencies have limited funds and try to get the best/most they can with their limited funds.

2. The new (young) generation of cops mostly know plastic guns and have never fired a 1911.

3. A significant percentage of agencies only allow the officer to carry Dept owned guns, which are mostly plastic guns.

4. In the new era of active shooters (school shooters etc) cops want extra round capacity.

5. Plastic guns are lighter. 9mm ammo is lighter than 45 acp

6. 9mm ammo is cheaper than 45acp.

On a side note, my agency issues 9mm Glock. But we can carry our personally owned guns made by a reputable manufacturer, if approved by Dept Range Master, and we must we qualify with them prior to going into service.

I'm in Admin now and carry a Glock 9mm. However my patrol gun was a full-size 1911 carrying 8+1 in 45 acp.
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:18 PM
Badwolf75 Badwolf75 is offline
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A number of good points have been raised. I work for a smaller rural Dept. We're required to purchase our own duty weapons. 1911s are in the minority for sure, but they do have a small cult following within the Dept.
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  #14  
Old 09-13-2018, 04:24 PM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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I do not think that accuracy should ever go "out of style" in law enforcement. I have always been a proponent of using whatever firearm allowed the person to hit their target most often. I have never bought the "one size fits all" theory and as for trading ammo in a fight that theory has been debunked many times.

As I have been promoted I have been allowed to introduce polices and procedures that allowed a very liberal selection of firearms for duty use. The 1911 is one we use.

I carry one daily (and nightly some times) as I still get involved in daily police activities thanks to rock star Sergeants that work for me. I do not feel under gunned but as I have posted in this forum, I carry 10 round magazines when a uniform/swat capacity.

But... I have three Sig P320 X, striker fired guns that I have been shooting a lot. They are great guns and I shoot them very, very, well. We will see what the future brings for me. If I do change platforms it will be because I have thought out and it works best for my situation.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:22 PM
Smokey613 Smokey613 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW CQB 45 View Post
Very Nice!

if those are original Wilson night sights from the 90s, I am assuming the tritium done left!
LOL, yes the originals died a long time ago. I just installed these about a month ago. They work great and BTW, they are Meprolight.
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Old 09-14-2018, 10:25 AM
jpd202 jpd202 is offline
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When I was chief of my department, I made the policy that you could carry whatever as long as it was a major manufacturer and .38 or above. My logic was that you need to carry what you are comfortable with and can shoot well, as a hit with a .38 revolver beats a miss with a .45 or 9mm. We actually had one Gulf War vet who preferred to carry a S&W 65 and loaded it with 125 gr jhp. And he could shoot! We issue Glock .40 or .45's, but I have carried a 1911 in one form or another since the early 2000's. Just fits me better and I feel more confident with it. That being said, my back-up is a Glock 27 and I do carry 4 mags on the belt for my TRP.
And while it may just be cooincidental, I have noticed a quicker reaction to comply when I point my 1911 at them then when bad guys have a Glock pointed at them. But this may be as one guy put it, "When the man pointing a big gun at you is steady you'd better listen. If he's shaking he probably doesn't mean it". Just an observation....
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:24 PM
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I highly doubt the 1911 will ever be a general issue weapon. Too expensive and too maintenance intense.

That being said for Departments that allow individually purchased duty weapons it will always have a small and loyal following.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:13 PM
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Grandpas50AE Grandpas50AE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjpaxton View Post
I think the reason the 1911 has a small percentage of users in law enforcement is because of a few reasons.

1. A decent 1911 cost 2-3 times more than a plastic striker fired pistol. Police agencies have limited funds and try to get the best/most they can with their limited funds.

2. The new (young) generation of cops mostly know plastic guns and have never fired a 1911.

3. A significant percentage of agencies only allow the officer to carry Dept owned guns, which are mostly plastic guns.

4. In the new era of active shooters (school shooters etc) cops want extra round capacity.

5. Plastic guns are lighter. 9mm ammo is lighter than 45 acp

6. 9mm ammo is cheaper than 45acp.

On a side note, my agency issues 9mm Glock. But we can carry our personally owned guns made by a reputable manufacturer, if approved by Dept Range Master, and we must we qualify with them prior to going into service.

I'm in Admin now and carry a Glock 9mm. However my patrol gun was a full-size 1911 carrying 8+1 in 45 acp.
#1 - This is probably a big portion of it.
#2 - This can be overcome by good training, which relates back to #1
#3 - Again related to #1
#4 - No problem with this, other than marksmanship is still essential
#5 - Valid consideration for all day duty carry
#6 - Goes back to #1 again

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRM813 View Post
I do not think that accuracy should ever go "out of style" in law enforcement. I have always been a proponent of using whatever firearm allowed the person to hit their target most often. I have never bought the "one size fits all" theory and as for trading ammo in a fight that theory has been debunked many times.

As I have been promoted I have been allowed to introduce polices and procedures that allowed a very liberal selection of firearms for duty use. The 1911 is one we use.

I carry one daily (and nightly some times) as I still get involved in daily police activities thanks to rock star Sergeants that work for me. I do not feel under gunned but as I have posted in this forum, I carry 10 round magazines when a uniform/swat capacity.

But... I have three Sig P320 X, striker fired guns that I have been shooting a lot. They are great guns and I shoot them very, very, well. We will see what the future brings for me. If I do change platforms it will be because I have thought out and it works best for my situation.
As it should ALWAYS be, and I agree on the accuracy point. Good post.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:47 PM
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My department(s) issued guns and personal weapons were not allowed. I would have loved to have been able to carry a 1911, especially during my time as a major case detective.

When I first started in the department we only had one deputy that was a sharpshooter, the rest were experts and many of us were NRA Distinguished Experts. The NRA actually did a story on our department in the early 80’s because of that. Anyway, as time went on less and less new deputies were interested in firearms. I ran our firearms program and struggled to get people out to the range for open range days to just practice and have fun.

My rambling leads to my point that I would have been very uncomfortable to have many of our deputies carrying 1911’s. Most would not train and practice to the point needed to proficiently carry one on duty.

The days of most cops being gun guys is long gone, if it ever really was true. So the reason stated in previous posts are very good but realistically a Glock is a very good gun to issue to most law enforcement officers and a 1911 really is not.

There are many good LEO’s that still practice on their own time to maintain and gain skills but unfortunately it is not the majority.

I would not have felt disadvantaged carrying a 1911 with an 8 plus 1 capacity.
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Old 09-15-2018, 05:47 AM
MarkMac MarkMac is offline
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Some guys still carry the 1911 on duty. I carry a TRP Operator. Another Sgt carries a Sign Scorpion.

The capacity argument is stale. The counter is that I can engage and hit a torso at 50 yards with my 1911. Maybe 50 yards will be as close as I can get to an active shooter. I can't make 50 yard hits with my Glocks.

Greater capacity is preferable for military engagements, when my platoon needs fire superiority to hose down another platoon. But for police work, precision is paramount and dominates capacity for a lone warrior engaging a lethal threat in a civilian environment.


I don't think I'm undergunned:

https://youtu.be/zYIsPPGotgU
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Old 09-15-2018, 08:23 AM
Smokey613 Smokey613 is offline
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Yes, I currently carry my aforementioned Delta Elite on duty. I got it as a BD gift in 1989 from my wife and our reserve deputies. I was the Senior LT that oversaw our reserve program. My current duties at our City Marshal's office has me mainly working inside with the occasional outing to serve warrants and truancy summons. It's a great post retirement job while waiting on my wife's Medicare to kick in and we both retire again for good. All that said, if I was working the streets again and wanted to maintain the 10mm as my duty carry caliber, I would have kept my G20SF. It was a great shooting 10mm. I got an offer for it I could not turn down and sold it knowing I would really have no need for it once I left LE. Other than heirlooms, I have sold my "extra" guns that do not serve a purpose. I am no longer into collecting guns. I decided to keep only those that served a purpose and spend my extra money on other endeavors and on ammo for more range time. My only quandry is whether to keep my Shield 40 or sell/trade it in for a Shield 9 or a G43. Never shot a 43 but commonality in defensive sidearms and calibers has it's appeal. My DE would be relegated to limited range use. This is my current line up.
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Old 09-15-2018, 05:23 PM
Oldguy9 Oldguy9 is offline
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As an outside, non-LEO, just want to say..this is a refreshing and informative thread..thank you.
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  #23  
Old 09-16-2018, 02:49 PM
RogueTS1 RogueTS1 is offline
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I may have told this story here before, and then again maybe not, but it is a very good one so here goes.

When I was a little boy my father had taken my sister and me out for dinner in downtown Chicago. This would be in the early 70's. My father pulled over into a convenience store to buy some cigarettes. As we waited at the counter two CPD officers walked in. Me being all about guns and such stared at the two officers gun rigs and their black leather motorcycle jackets. They looked so cool!

I noticed that one of the officers had two guns on his belt; a revolver on his strong side and a 1911 cross draw on his weak side. Being a young lad, I asked him why he had two guns on.

He smiled and replied, "The department only issues this .38 special service revolver and we have to carry it ................. but they allow us to carry any kind of pistol we choose as a back up. I therefore choose to carry this Colt 1911 .45 and if I have to draw my gun I can just simply choose to draw my back up gun instead of my service revolver."

My reply came, "Cool!" He tipped his hat to us as we left the store.

I will never forget that convenience store visit.
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Old 09-16-2018, 04:07 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is online now
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I'm not a cop but I agree with most of the comments regarding proficiency.
I don't think it has to do with capacity as much as it has to do with cops being able to utilize their guns in an immediate stressful situation. Glocks are draw, pray and pull the trigger. 1911s require a bit more and if not practiced and proficient with one some people will totally forget the thumb safety and squeeze a dead trigger. It could cost them their lives.
So for officer safety the '1911 is dead' myth has been born.
Maybe?
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:57 AM
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1911s come-up second-best when price is the only consideration. Otherwise, they compare quite favorably w/ anything else. But they do require a bit more training due to their manual safety, which I feel makes the 1911 a superior LE weapon.

I had to carry tactical tupperware for the last 15-years of my career. Now that I am "merely" a Reserve, I carry what I want, which is either my Baer TRS or my Colt/Gunsite Custom Carry.
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