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  #1  
Old 08-06-2018, 01:24 PM
Amp Mangum Amp Mangum is offline
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Ken Hackathorn – The 1 to 5 Drill

A good drill that makes you think while you shoot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1tzoIYB1I0
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Old 08-06-2018, 01:37 PM
Gary1911A1 Gary1911A1 is offline
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Thanks for posting. Would like to take another class with Ken again, although I know he semi-retired.
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  #3  
Old 08-06-2018, 02:39 PM
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It is one of my regular training drills as well, and first time through is the only one that counts - like he said, "It is what it is". Real life SD doesn't present you multiple chances to try it over and get it right - get the job done or you're toast.
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  #4  
Old 08-07-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Grandpas50AE View Post
It is one of my regular training drills as well, and first time through is the only one that counts - like he said, "It is what it is". Real life SD doesn't present you multiple chances to try it over and get it right - get the job done or you're toast.
Amen ..... been using it for many years since Mr. Hackathorn was recommending it in my former 3 letter agency S/A training. Every time I head for the range it is the first thing I do and compare the timing and score to previous runs over many years pre-retirement. All's still good ...
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:30 AM
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I do very much like this drill but only have two IDPA target stands and am shooting it with those and the third target being a steel IDPA with 7” painted center ring. I am on the back order list for my favorite target stands and hope to get a third soon to be able to shoot this right.

I also just like listening to Ken, no matter what he is talking about.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:04 PM
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My favorite is El-Presidente (also 30' 3 plates), but I like this very much also, and am going to add it as the first drill. I shoot at steel, two 1/2 area ipsc which is approx. A+C zones (no D zone), and one 1/4 area ipsc which is approx A zones (and nothing else). Should be fun.
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Old 08-07-2018, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
My favorite is El-Presidente (also 30' 3 plates), but I like this very much also, and am going to add it as the first drill. I shoot at steel, two 1/2 area ipsc which is approx. A+C zones (no D zone), and one 1/4 area ipsc which is approx A zones (and nothing else). Should be fun.
Another drill he suggests, shot cold with DUTY or CARRY ammo, is the Wizard Drill. Vary the 1 to 5 and the Wizard drills at each range visit. Another good one is Bill's "warm-up drill" he outlines in his book - we shoot this as our first drill of many of the "study group" drills. I would say, from my experience, many of the drills for S/D should be shot on a rotating basis as the "first" drill of the range day.
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Old 08-07-2018, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandpas50AE View Post
Another drill he suggests, shot cold with DUTY or CARRY ammo, is the Wizard Drill. Vary the 1 to 5 and the Wizard drills at each range visit. Another good one is Bill's "warm-up drill" he outlines in his book - we shoot this as our first drill of many of the "study group" drills. I would say, from my experience, many of the drills for S/D should be shot on a rotating basis as the "first" drill of the range day.
The wizard sounds awesome too. I pretty much have this covered though, I spend a lot of time on head-shots at all distances from 7-25 yards from the draw.

I had to look it up and for those who don't know it:

"Ken calls his skill evaluation the “Wizard Drill.” The drill requires only five rounds, a shot timer, and an IDPA-style silhouette target. All stages begin with the firearm in a concealed holster. Each string of fire has a maximum time limit of 2.5 seconds.

Stage 1) 3 yards, one head shot strong hand only
Stage 2) 5 yards, one head shot using both hands on the gun
Stage 3) 7 yards, one head shot using both hands on the gun
Stage 4) 10 yards, two body shots using both hands on the gun."
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:16 PM
TCG23 TCG23 is offline
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Travis Haley does a variation called the nine ball drill. I think it's been posted before, but here's a link in case people haven't seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3xJVnkLJDs
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  #10  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:07 AM
D Williams D Williams is offline
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Originally Posted by TCG23 View Post
Travis Haley does a variation called the nine ball drill. I think it's been posted before, but here's a link in case people haven't seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3xJVnkLJDs
I’ve run the nine ball drill for guys at range training it’s a fun, challenging drill. No one could get close to Travis’ time of course.
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  #11  
Old 08-09-2018, 05:56 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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The 1 to 5 drill.....

It looks like a good drill. However, Ken Hackathorn says not to count rounds to anticipate a reload, since you won't be able to do this "in the real world...…."

But, with this drill, you have to count rounds, otherwise you won't know when to transition from one target to the next..... When some people state the drill makes you think, it makes you think BY COUNTING THE ROUNDS you fire.

Also, Ken uses a 1911 9mm which holds 11 rounds fully loaded. Judging from the way the brass leaves the gun, he is shooting a minor power factor load.

I am not saying the drill is not useful, since any time you have to transition the gun multiple times with multiple shots it is good practice. However, counting rounds is required for this drill.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 08-09-2018 at 06:10 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-09-2018, 09:13 AM
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Counting rounds per target is required, counting total rounds is not. Remember the old saying “this is just a drill”.

The nine ball drill looks pretty good, too. I’m guessing steel is at 10 yards and IDPA targets are at 7. I’ll be adding that to my drill list but I still try to focus more on accuracy than just speed, but a few speed runs would be fun.
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Last edited by apipeguy; 08-09-2018 at 09:50 AM.
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  #13  
Old 08-10-2018, 07:20 AM
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Yes, it is about the spirit of the drill and what we learn about ourselves as shooters. To wit, I will have to modify the scoring system a little to fit my targets. I have no D-zone on any of them, so if I shoot a D it will be a miss (I'm not expecting this but "stuff" happens ;-)) and I am just going to shoot again, it will not be plus 3 seconds (I think he said the d-zone is +3 seconds), just another split. And I have no D or C-zone on one target, so same approach. Therefore, my scores will not correlate 1:1 with ken's method, unless I have no misses which is my goal anyway (then it will correlate). But I can track my own times and see how I improve over the year...It isn't a difficult drill other than it is run cold...I don't know when I will get out there we have a "Miami" summer up here this year, every day has a 70-77 Dew point since early July with no end in sight. (I usually run outside in the summer, but for the last 6 weeks all indoors on the treadmill, my rule being no strenuous activity if dew-point is 70 or above). This drill will be a good test after what will likely be a 2 month layoff from the range, but fun.
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Yes, it is about the spirit of the drill and what we learn about ourselves as shooters. To wit, I will have to modify the scoring system a little to fit my targets. I have no D-zone on any of them, so if I shoot a D it will be a miss (I'm not expecting this but "stuff" happens ;-)) and I am just going to shoot again, it will not be plus 3 seconds (I think he said the d-zone is +3 seconds), just another split. And I have no D or C-zone on one target, so same approach. Therefore, my scores will not correlate 1:1 with ken's method, unless I have no misses which is my goal anyway (then it will correlate). But I can track my own times and see how I improve over the year...It isn't a difficult drill other than it is run cold...I don't know when I will get out there we have a "Miami" summer up here this year, every day has a 70-77 Dew point since early July with no end in sight. (I usually run outside in the summer, but for the last 6 weeks all indoors on the treadmill, my rule being no strenuous activity if dew-point is 70 or above). This drill will be a good test after what will likely be a 2 month layoff from the range, but fun.
Just a side note on the Wizard drill you detailed above: the head target is a 4" circle (Ken usually draws this with a Sharpie and a full roll of IDPA target tape), and the CoM target is a standard IDPA CoM 8" circle - you can use a normal paper plate on a cardboard backing for both; anything outside the circles or not shot within the PAR time is a miss. I have also shot a few variants of the Wizard drill using the standard scoring to make it more interesting: the stage 2 and stage 3 you described in your earlier post at 5 and 7 yards can be done one-handed (that means all three head shots single-hand at all three distances), then "freestyle" for the last one at 10 yards CoM. Most of these drills can be varied a little to keep them challenging.
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:35 AM
Big Pete10 Big Pete10 is offline
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I'll never understand counting bullets........................................... ................... maybe if down to last magazine full. I mean shoot this guy once, that guy 5 times him, 3.............
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Grandpas50AE View Post
Just a side note on the Wizard drill you detailed above: the head target is a 4" circle (Ken usually draws this with a Sharpie and a full roll of IDPA target tape), and the CoM target is a standard IDPA CoM 8" circle - you can use a normal paper plate on a cardboard backing for both; anything outside the circles or not shot within the PAR time is a miss. I have also shot a few variants of the Wizard drill using the standard scoring to make it more interesting: the stage 2 and stage 3 you described in your earlier post at 5 and 7 yards can be done one-handed (that means all three head shots single-hand at all three distances), then "freestyle" for the last one at 10 yards CoM. Most of these drills can be varied a little to keep them challenging.
According to the area O-L tool, 4" circle (I assume you mean the diameter) has a total of 12.6 sq". On my 1/2 area ipsc plates, the entire head is a square of exactly 4x4 which is 16 sq" (i didn't even need to use the tool for the square - LOL!), so these are diff. by 3.4 sq" or about 25% more on the my plate. On my 1/4 area ipsc plate it is a 3X3" head or a total of 9 sq", here Ken's circle has 40% more surface area vs the 1/4 area head. I just wanted to see how my plate heads compare to his 4" circle baseline and since I got the 4" circle bracketed on both sides (sometimes I get a 25% bigger target, and sometimes a 40% smaller target), I'll just use them for simplicity.
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Last edited by combat auto; 08-11-2018 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:31 PM
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I am in the process of adding more target stands to my range so I can do these drills.

One thing I really like about Ken is his honesty.What he shoots is what you see.
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Old 08-11-2018, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
According to the area O-L tool, 4" circle (I assume you mean the diameter) has a total of 12.6 sq". On my 1/2 area ipsc plates, the entire head is a square of exactly 4x4 which is 16 sq" (i didn't even need to use the tool for the square - LOL!), so these are diff. by 3.4 sq" or about 25% more on the my plate. On my 1/4 area ipsc plate it is a 3X3" head or a total of 9 sq", here Ken's circle has 40% more surface area vs the 1/4 area head. I just wanted to see how my plate heads compare to his 4" circle baseline and since I got the 4" circle bracketed on both sides (sometimes I get a 25% bigger target, and sometimes a 40% smaller target), I'll just use them for simplicity.
Exactly what I meant about adapting these drills. A smaller target increases the challenge, and is good training.

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I am in the process of adding more target stands to my range so I can do these drills.

One thing I really like about Ken is his honesty.What he shoots is what you see.
And I guarantee, you will not meet a more honest person IME.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:09 AM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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I used this drill of Ken's last month in a monthly training session for my employees and it went over very well.
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Old 08-26-2018, 08:47 AM
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OMG !!

Shot it with a Colt Competition 9mm and Sparks 1AT-RT (same holster Ken used).

My time, first run, cold, was 11.73 plus 2 pts. down. Almost the same as Ken's. I had a poor magazine ejection that cost me at least 1.5 sec. I tried to eject the magazine while maintain the grip. Should have flipped the gun like I normally do.

Shot this before but haven't done it in a while. The second run was 2 seconds faster and 0 pts. down.

Ran it with a Springfield Armory Saint AR from roughly 12 yds. Time was 6.3 sec. and 0 pts. down.
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Old 08-27-2018, 09:31 AM
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OMG !!

Shot it with a Colt Competition 9mm and Sparks 1AT-RT (same holster Ken used).

My time, first run, cold, was 11.73 plus 2 pts. down. Almost the same as Ken's. I had a poor magazine ejection that cost me at least 1.5 sec. I tried to eject the magazine while maintain the grip. Should have flipped the gun like I normally do.

Shot this before but haven't done it in a while. The second run was 2 seconds faster and 0 pts. down.

Ran it with a Springfield Armory Saint AR from roughly 12 yds. Time was 6.3 sec. and 0 pts. down.
Sounds good. Gun-type does matter...I shot it with my STI-CC-45 and it was super easy and fun...BUT, I didn't time it - LOL. First trip to range in 2 months because of heat, so I wanted to take a break from the timer. Hope to get into my 2-3 week regular schedule going now to range and will time it next time. I did realize from the "practice" session, I need to spry black circles of about 8" on my 1/2 area ipsic plates, and cut the A area (which is the entire plate) on my 1/4 area ipsic in half with a black-line (which will make the top area about equal to the idpa target 8" circle in total area). This will do 2 things, enable me to better-score it like the intended method ken used, and two, help me aim even better for the goals of this particular drill.
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Last edited by combat auto; 08-27-2018 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:17 AM
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Here’s what I did with my steel and actually did 7” circles. Lately I’ve preferred shooting on my cardboard IDPA targets.
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:18 AM
FightinTXAggie FightinTXAggie is offline
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I've been using this as my first drill of the day for the past couple of weeks. Been getting better at it as time goes by. Started out in the mid 10's, but with enough points down to put me between 13-15 seconds total.

Saturday's time was 10.56 seconds, with 2 points down, shooting a custom Colt.

Sunday I shot an 11.57 clean. Just haven't been able to break the 11 second barrier with clean targets yet. It is my goal. I am working diligently on creating a better shot cadence, so that my target transition times are minutely decreased and better incorporated between shots.

I haven't shot it with an AR yet, but that is next.

I have been running a lot of Ken's drills lately, with a few of Travis Haley's mixed in. That guy is really fast & dialed in! He also incorporates a very scientific approach to shooting, based on research gleaned from studying human learning/attention patterns, neuronal responses, etc. Top notch stuff...
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  #24  
Old 09-22-2018, 07:21 PM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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1911 style gun and magazine ejection....

Quote:
Should have flipped the gun like I normally do.
I have seen many shooters flip the gun to make sure the magazine drops out of the way. However, this is not a good habit, since any mag whether empty or not should drop freely from a 1911 style gun. It would be best to mark the mags to determine which mag or if all the mags are not dropping free of the gun......it could be a mag issue, a gun issue, or both. The best option is to fix the problem so any mags used drop smoothly and reliably with very little effort.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:59 PM
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Negative.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

I have small hands, meaning short fingers and thumbs.

While maintaining proper shooting grip, my thumb is just barely able to reach the mag release button. So reaching this way for the button, I have no strength or leverage to push the button. When the button is not fully depressed, the magazine won't come out.

Flipping the gun, relinquishing the shooting grip, allows my short thumb to fully reach and allow proper pressure on the mag release button.

End.
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