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  #1  
Old 11-30-2019, 10:20 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Carbine, red dot sight in ??

It's been a zillion years ago since I took a Law Enforcement "rifle" instructor course. Thereafter it was quarterly "quals". At the time red dots weren't authorized by our department. Shooting was 40- 100 yards. I thought it was ludicrus at the time to enter a wharehouse/neighborhood at night and try to find targets with apature sights.

Fast forward to today the weapons have changed and red dots are now the norm. Where authorized M4's with red dots are the new normal and are deployed/effective at close range and low/no light.

Based on the current trend and training at what distance is the recommended POA/POI for that red dot.

My PCC (9mm) is sighted in for 15 yards but I'm mainly concerned if my AR carbine (.223) should be sighted in at 50 yards as in the pre red dot days? That still puts it about 1.5 inches low at 15 and 1.5 inches high at 100 yards and zero at 200 yards.

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Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!

Last edited by jjfitch; 11-30-2019 at 08:18 PM. Reason: syntax
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2019, 04:47 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
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It entirely depends.

If you expect to be shooting at ranges of 50 yards and less then a 50 yard zero would work. It will put you back to POI/POA at 200.

We went with a 100 yard zero because at the time our policy was written the primary expected use of the rifle was perimeter containment until SWAT could take over.

a 100 yard zero will put your trajectory below line of sight at ALL distances. We're 2 inches low at 25, 1.5 low at 50, zero at 100, and back to 2.5 low at 200.

Having said this in real life shooter error is way more of an issue then 1.5 at this distance or 2 at that distance.
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2019, 08:30 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
It entirely depends.

If you expect to be shooting at ranges of 50 yards and less then a 50 yard zero would work. It will put you back to POI/POA at 200.

We went with a 100 yard zero because at the time our policy was written the primary expected use of the rifle was perimeter containment until SWAT could take over.

a 100 yard zero will put your trajectory below line of sight at ALL distances. We're 2 inches low at 25, 1.5 low at 50, zero at 100, and back to 2.5 low at 200.

Having said this in real life shooter error is way more of an issue then 1.5 at this distance or 2 at that distance.
That is exactly where I started but shortened the "zero" as a "civilian". Now I'm less likely to take longer shots as it is strictly defensive implement.

Full disclosure: I also have an AR with Nikon "glass"!

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Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!
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  #4  
Old 12-01-2019, 09:11 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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50/200 is probably the best zero for all around use with most any low power or no power optic on the AR. Thats what we used on our issue Eotech's and also what I have used on my 1-6 optic AR Game gun for 3-gun. It pretty much allows a center mass hold from point blank to 230 yds.

Notably, with my ammo its actually 46/200 on my game gun, but you need to chronograph your ammo in conjunction with a good ballistic app and/or sight in at 200 and verify at closer ranges to know your holdovers/unders for precise shots.
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  #5  
Old 12-01-2019, 10:24 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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If 200 rounds defines a properly "broken in" barrel I'm ready to start refining my reloads. (Wet and dry patches after 10-20 rounds!) This was with bulk 55 grain bullets and simulated factory specs.

With the almost endless variety of factory ammo I'll do a little testing to find the sweet spot of accuracy and begin load development to duplicate that. For now I have several cases of Winchester Ranger that looks really good. If my barrel continues to produces .5" or better at 50 yards with Winchester or Hornady I'll be happy.

For a "house gun" it will be loaded with "factory" ammo but practice/training will be mostly promo" ammo, it is cheap and I shoot a lot of it but I also find reloading relaxing.

Smiles,
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Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!
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  #6  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:02 AM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
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What MOA is the dot in your sight? A 4 MOA dot will cover 4 inches worth of the target at 100yds. So being off 1-2 inches yourself could add up to being 6 inches off target and create misses.
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  #7  
Old 12-01-2019, 01:55 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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This is a V-Strikefire II w/4 mil dot. I prefer the red dot so far over the green.

On the first range trip the first 100 rounds were at 100 yards. The target center was 8"s. This was sighting in and barrel lapping session. The group settled in at around 2 inches with promo ammo from WW and FCC. The 4 mil dot just covers the 4" target center at 50 and the 8" center at 100!

The aperture sights will remain 100 yard POA/POI. The 50 yard dot and 100 yard metallic sight set up seems to me for a home defense/general purpose carbine a good compromise.

The red dot allows these 72 year old eyes to make off hand head shots @ 25-50 yards if I execute the basics!

Smiles,
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John, Retired LEO, CA POST Certified Firearms Instructor, NRA Endmt., NRA Instructor, NRA RSO, Blue Lives Matter
Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!

Last edited by jjfitch; 12-01-2019 at 02:29 PM.
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  #8  
Old 12-01-2019, 09:19 PM
RogueTS1 RogueTS1 is offline
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Height over bore issues are going to always be an AR issue no matter what the zero is. It merely needs to be trained for.
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  #9  
Old 12-01-2019, 09:32 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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I think that red dots have their niche.

This being primarily low light situations. But lately I have been going more towards straight glass optics that have 1X coupled with magnification. My Noveske wears a Leupold VX6 1X6 IR that I am very happy with insofar as what I am likely to need it for.

More recently I have acquired a S&W M&P AR-10. Here I have gone more or less the same route in that I have a Trigicon 1X8 IR on it that I am also pretty happy with. I think that it is important to consider that good glass will pick up and magnify ambient light to the extent that the objective lens will gather more light than your unaided eye at any rate.
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  #10  
Old 12-02-2019, 07:39 AM
Mike 139 Mike 139 is offline
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JJ....Back in the day, we sighted the Patrol Rifles in @ 100yds....No optics, factory Iron sights...In Retirement, I put an Aimpoint Pro on a 6920...The Pro has a 2in. MOA, and the Flip up sights and Pro are zeroed @ 100yds. W/ Green tips.

The advantage to the Aimpoint is shooting with both eyes open, much wider field of view.

I look at this the same as have a fully inflated spare tire, very low probability of ever needing it, but there just in case.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:49 PM
Hawkeye fan Hawkeye fan is offline
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Barrel lengths from 10.5" to 18" firing M193 and M855 showing where bullets should impact using a 50, 100, and 300 yard zero.








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  #12  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:49 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Hawkeye:

Google: ARMA DYNAMICS "recommends a 50 yard zero for your AR-15 rifle. The 50 yard zero provides for effective center-mass hits on target at the ranges where a carbine is most commonly used. A 50 yard zero allows the shooter to use a simple center-mass hold to ranges of point blank to 200-250 yards, depending on rifle and ammunition combination.

With this being said, we also realize that what works for one does not necessarily work for another. We have created a series of graphics to compare the different zeros for various barrel length and ammunition combinations to better choose what works best for your needs. (click on the graphic below for the full series):


Great info and it shows exactly what I have graphed with my ammo. Showing a spread of about 3 inches from 25-200 yards all things being perfect. There are factors that can increase that spread by another inch or two.

For a rural home defense weapon 50 yard zero serves my intended purpose for this 16" R/D equipped carbine. Coupled with my R/D equipped 16" 9mm PCC sighted in for 15 yards and my optics equipped 16 inch carbine sighted in for 200 yards we're ready for that mythical SHTF scenario!

Smiles,
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John, Retired LEO, CA POST Certified Firearms Instructor, NRA Endmt., NRA Instructor, NRA RSO, Blue Lives Matter
Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!

Last edited by jjfitch; 12-02-2019 at 03:11 PM. Reason: syntax
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  #13  
Old 01-21-2020, 09:37 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Accurate rifles....

A bullet in a rifle barrel is akin to water leaving a garden hose....how the water hose whips around when not held, often makes a difference in what direction the water sprays.....

A rifle barrel also moves ever so slightly when a round is fired , but an AR-15, with a heavy barrel may have less movement than a thinner barrel, and the length of the barrel may also make a difference in how the bullet leaves the barrel....usually, the heavier barrel may provide better/more accurate shot groups at longer distance.....less barrel movement, better vibrational harmonics, and more shots can be fired rapidly without the heavy barrel heating up as quickly.....

I have two AR-15 rifles. One is a Rock River with a heavy Wildey chambered 20" barrel and the gun is about ten lbs. with a 3-9x variable scope....it easily shoots sub-MOA at 100 yards with my handloads. The other is a DPMS Panther with a standard 16" AR barrel. I added a compensator, and this gun also shoots better than MOA at 100 yards with my reloads. This gun weighs just over 7lbs. with a Burris M-Tac 1.5-4X variable scope with a Red Dot illuminated type reticle....I use this for three gun competition shooting. Our maximum shot distance is roughly 75 yards for three gun, since our Action Shooting Bays do not allow longer range. Once in a while we may have one stage adjacent to the Action Shooting area, where the shot distance may be 150-200 yards.....that is when the variable 4X scope has an advantage!

I guess it depends on the situation where the gun will be used, but in an urban setting for possible self defense, a 50 yard zero seems optimal.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 01-21-2020 at 09:41 AM.
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  #14  
Old 01-21-2020, 02:51 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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For general use I prefer a Aimpoint sighted for 50/200 paired with a good light to allow ID and engagement out to 300 without any thought needed except super close up, I am still playing with true 1x lens based optics but am finding they are heavier than a straight RDS and the life and illumination is not as good, the other "big" issue I have with them is that it's harder to bring them to bear when moving indoors or in vehicles or in on the ground and for a fast close in rifle of minor caliber even with the best modern ammo you still do not have great terminal effect past 175-220 yards anyway so I leave the 1-8s on my 7.62x51 guns.

Sure it's nice to be able to flip to 8x at 150-300 yards but kinda pointless since you can still hit with a RDS with literally minimal training, I had people who have not used them or an AR in general going from not able to hit a A-zone at 25 yards to getting hits on timer on a head zone at 100 yards in under 2.5 seconds. Plus they play very well with lights and immune to getting things in the lenses since even if you drop the gun and mud covers the front of the optic entirely the system will still project the dot and you can fire accurately even with no line of sight through the optic.

It's such that you can literally tape the RDS front over and still use it near 100% effectively, can't do that with any lens based optic unless it has internal illumination that is already turned on at the time of the dirt/drop.

My 3-gun rifle is also my main SD/general use rifle since it's extremely fast and out to 300 yards on a 6 inch target there is no disadvantage speed wise to a 4x and if the 1-X optic is not already turned up it's slower since you have adjustment time.
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Last edited by Striker2237; 01-21-2020 at 02:53 PM.
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  #15  
Old 01-21-2020, 03:03 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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I haven't shot 3 gun in over 15 years but at the time I used a 3X scope and it to was sighted in at 50 yards. The furthest we shot was a "bonus" target at 200.

All the best in 2020,
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Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!
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