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  #1  
Old 03-24-2016, 06:39 AM
CRT2 CRT2 is offline
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LEOSA - Under the Influence

Under LEOSA for DOD, a requirement is: while armed, will not be under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance.

Legal Definitions of under the influence are:

1. less than drunk but with one's nervous system impaired.

2. the term applied to a person who has ingested alcohol to render them incapable of discretion and sound judgement.

The UCMJ doesn't use the term "under the influence" but does refer to applying state law where the military post is to determine DUI as an example.

So, the question is: Would having one drink, 180 pound man, while armed under LEOSA be considered under the influence?

I do plan to contact SJA to get a legal opinion.
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:01 AM
Jeff in Colorado Jeff in Colorado is offline
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Not LEO, but when I read this, I asked myself: "why bother?" one drink, don't feel it really, and it might be an issue, so why do it? Just my opinion.
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:23 AM
dnepr0mike dnepr0mike is offline
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i don't get this 'dilemma' many firearm owners have and constantly argue about. if you carry - don't drink. doesn't matter impaired or not. it only takes one overzealous LEO and you can be in a world of trouble. for very least attorney fees and headache for worst case - prohibited person for the rest of your life.

also don't hide your carry piece in the bushes when you want to get into a night club and can't bring CCW with you.
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:32 AM
Steve in PA Steve in PA is offline
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I've read many opinions on LEOSA and "under the influence" and the consensus is; no drinking, period.

While states have DUI laws that allow a person to have a few drinks and still drive, provided they can operate a vehicle safely, LEOSA doesn't seem to allow this.

If you follow the old DUI saying, "impairment begins with the first drink", you can see where the LEOSA/no drinking opinion comes from.
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:43 AM
BillD BillD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnepr0mike View Post

also don't hide your carry piece in the bushes when you want to get into a night club and can't bring CCW with you.
Who does that?
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:52 AM
CavCop CavCop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRT2 View Post
Under LEOSA for DOD, a requirement is: while armed, will not be under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance.

Legal Definitions of under the influence are:

1. less than drunk but with one's nervous system impaired.

2. the term applied to a person who has ingested alcohol to render them incapable of discretion and sound judgement.

The UCMJ doesn't use the term "under the influence" but does refer to applying state law where the military post is to determine DUI as an example.

So, the question is: Would having one drink, 180 pound man, while armed under LEOSA be considered under the influence?

I do plan to contact SJA to get a legal opinion.
The way the Military and Feds have worked it is that you could have a drink at lunch or at a function, but you can not be over 0.02% BrAC on duty. 0.08% is the Intoxicated limit, where 0.02% is seen as the Influence limit. Some would say no more than two beers over 1 hour, with food.

While saying its best not to drink, social things are recognized.

Most places will say no detectable amount of alcohol if they mean no drinking, not being under the influence means a detectable amount that does not over all effect reactionary time, motor skills, and judgment.
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:54 AM
CavCop CavCop is offline
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PS... Hawaii is the only state I know of where you can not drink and be armed under LEOSA/local laws.
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:09 AM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
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Your post says 'while armed'. Is it a requirement of your current job that you are?
If not why not leave it home or in tne vehicle while inside having a drink or two and eating?

And I can't speak for LEOSA or DoD rules. But in Florida it is not illegal to drink while armed or even be drunk while armed. It is however illegal to use it while impaired so the latter kinda cancels the prior out. But this makes it possible for a man and his family to go out and have a nice dinner and not worry about one or two drinks with appetizers. Can't sit directly at the bar or in a place specifically designed to serve alcohol. But at a table with family you're fine.
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:44 AM
Maxcustody Maxcustody is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavCop View Post
PS... Hawaii is the only state I know of where you can not drink and be armed under LEOSA/local laws.
Where is that info coming from? I am a Fed LEO covered under LEOSA....

So if I am reading this correctly and maybe not....with this statement, I can drink and be armed Everywhere else?

Not trying to start an argument, just never heard this one before.
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Last edited by Maxcustody; 03-24-2016 at 09:18 AM.
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  #10  
Old 03-24-2016, 08:45 AM
crazy charlie crazy charlie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve in PA View Post
I've read many opinions on LEOSA and "under the influence" and the consensus is; no drinking, period.

While states have DUI laws that allow a person to have a few drinks and still drive, provided they can operate a vehicle safely, LEOSA doesn't seem to allow this.

If you follow the old DUI saying, "impairment begins with the first drink", you can see where the LEOSA/no drinking opinion comes from.
Don't forget mouthwash with alcohol in it. Any how, I avoided it when carrying on duty.
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:17 AM
Maxcustody Maxcustody is offline
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Last edited by Maxcustody; 03-24-2016 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Duplicate post
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:19 AM
AdamG247 AdamG247 is offline
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Wow Guys, really! I am sure a 180 lb man can safely have one beer with Lunch. One I said, not two or three or maybe four. One beer knocked back with lunch is safe.

Sometimes I am amazed by what I read. The law is the law. Lets not make it even more restrictive by our own interpretations.

Under the Influence as defined by State Law. Is always going to be some measurable level. As indicated by a Blood Alcohol Content (BAC) test or equivalent. This BAC level is never zero. Anything under this number is NOT considered under the influence, as defined by State Law.

Now, will it look good? That's a different question, one the OP did not ask. However, for the answer to that see the above comments. Obviously this group seems to feel any "partaking" is bad for the image.
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Old 03-24-2016, 10:52 AM
CavCop CavCop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxcustody View Post
Where is that info coming from? I am a Fed LEO covered under LEOSA....

So if I am reading this correctly and maybe not....with this statement, I can drink and be armed Everywhere else?

Not trying to start an argument, just never heard this one before.
From some sites I go to, some magazine articles, and the internet, the only state I know of that forbids any armed person from having a gun and a drink is Hawaii.

If you know of others let me know. Hawaii LEOSA and even 'Carry' laws are worst than any state I know of. I have yet to mess wit NJ, but have heard rumors they can be bad.

This is the police notice. I have been told it was 3 days to register (says 5 on the site, so it might be new) and if they know you have a firearm expect to see you register the next day.

https://ag.hawaii.gov/cjd/files/2013...-QLEO-926B.pdf

Quote:
II. If you are not on official duty with your governmental law
enforcement agency and you are carrying a concealed firearm
pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 926B, you are not considered a “law
enforcement officer” in the State of Hawaii. The Hawaii Revised
Statutes will be applied to you as if you were a “civilian” with no law
enforcement powers.
Read Sec III on no LE Ammo and no Magazine over 10 rounds for LEOSA

I could not find it, but have been told by friends who are police in Hawaii (went to school with them) and Officers I know that went on vacation that if armed you can not have any signs of alcohol in public (I am guessing they inform you when you register your gun). And that any Homicide will result in an arrest and the DA will decide later if to charge or not.

I don't know where Hawaii stand now but a few years back they were the worst state for firearm issue and might have had a handful of permits issued, less than any other state.
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Old 03-24-2016, 10:57 AM
CavCop CavCop is offline
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Found this

Quote:
House Bill 625 prohibits a person from possessing a firearm while drinking alcohol outside of their home or temporary residence. HPD supports the measure. The department has policies that prohibit off-duty officers from handling a firearm while drinking alcohol or while impaired by the consumption of liquor.
Quote:
HB 626 does not set a limit for the amount of alcohol an individual can legally consume while in possession of a firearm. Without this specification, any amount of alcohol consumption while in possession of a firearm could constitute a crime. Individuals who possess a firearm and have had a couple sips of wine or anything containing alcohol, like Nyquil, could be in violation of the law.
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:14 AM
Maxcustody Maxcustody is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavCop View Post
Found this
Very interesting thanks. You learn something new every day. I don't plan on going to Hawaii, but you never know...
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  #16  
Old 03-24-2016, 11:30 AM
Chief1297 Chief1297 is offline
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NC has this to say about concealed carry:

N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-415.12A. ...However anybody who is carrying a concealed handgun while consuming alcohol, or has alcohol or controlled substances remaining in his/her system will be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:46 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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This has a gender/weight/drink count chart that illustrates BACs:

https://www.addict-help.com/drunk.asp

The UCMJ uses 'drunk' and 'impaired' interchangeably. For driving, the military defers to the State in which the installation is located. For other issues, such as being drunk on duty, a BAC of 0.10 is the threshold- unless a different standard is enacted by the Service Secretary or other appropriate authority for a specific area or situation.

If you're subject to UCMJ, that's the general guidelines.
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Old 03-24-2016, 01:13 PM
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Curious what your JAG / SJA is going to say but I would not drink just to be on the safe side.
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:29 PM
aryfrosty aryfrosty is offline
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Under the "I"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRT2 View Post
Under LEOSA for DOD, a requirement is: while armed, will not be under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance

So, the question is: Would having one drink, 180 pound man, while armed under LEOSA be considered under the influence?

I do plan to contact SJA to get a legal opinion.
Legal standards for impaired driving don't consider a definition of "drunk". The standards for being under the influence do not have any consideration for weight, age, build or any other ephemeral standards. There is a scientific standard for being "under the influence" and it is stated in alcohol in grams % of blood. The standards will be necessarily tied to the chemical analysis of blood alcohol content only. It is impossible to state a standard for weights, or other variables so the only defense is to know in advance what a drink containing a specific amount of alcohol does to YOUR system.
Impairment or being under the influence can be manifest in many different ways but to consider a person under the influence for criminal charges a chemical test must be made. I can't testify, "Your honor he WAS under the influence..." I can state that my OPINION was that a person was under the influence but I then have to prove that.
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:44 PM
Grumpa72 Grumpa72 is offline
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:50 PM
Corrigun Corrigun is offline
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Do not drink or take medication that may impair you to any degree and carry. Not even one drink. Nothing.

Impaired to ANY degree. That is our legal definition.
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Old 03-24-2016, 03:46 PM
majortoo majortoo is offline
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Concur with the concept of zero drinks. Failure to observe that common sense rule could cost one dearly in many ways. Noteworthy that a European army unit many years ago ran a test with its soldiers. They all fired a standard range qualification protocol, then had alcohol and fired for qualification again. Interesting that they did not do as well on the second round, but thought they did better! Sorry that I do not remember specifics and I cannot give you a footnote!
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Old 03-24-2016, 04:08 PM
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Zero while out of my house carrying

Ever since I got my LTC here in Texas I have become extremely careful. I don't drive over the speed limit, I stop fully at all stop signs and always use my signals. I also adhere to zero alcohol when I am not at home. At home, with my weapon loaded and ready I limit my self to two drinks (glass of wine, or shot of liquor = one drink) in an hour. This may seem extreme to some out there, but the interesting thing is that I used to do the "just five miles over speed limit" thing and not always signal or come to a complete stop; once I decided to become ultra law abiding / careful I was aware that I no longer had a constant, low level, anxiety about both seeing and NOT seeing a police cruiser. Now, when I spot an unmarked car in my rear view as the lights that are low on the dash board inside the car become visible to me or I drive past a blind where an officer is pointing a radar gun towards me, I just sail on by with no concern of any kind.
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Old 03-24-2016, 04:19 PM
truedog49 truedog49 is offline
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It is foolish to say it is 'safe' for a 180-pound man to have one beer and carry a firearm. Weight has little to do with the effects of alcohol on the body. It is all about how the body processes the alcohol, and each of us is different in that regard.

Bottom line - guns and alcohol do NOT mix. Never. Anyone that carries concealed and thinks it's okay to hit the corner bar for a beer or two is a fool at best. The same is true for those who think it is okay to bring alcohol and weapons to a range.

My brother and I went up into the hills to do some target shooting on BLM land. We had a great place to shoot that was perfect for handgun use. As we drove aup, we saw four guys, one dressed up like a cowboy, complete with a long duster coat and hat, another like he was out of a Sylvester Stallone 'Expendables' movie.

Each one had two things in common: they were holding a handgun in one hand, and a can of beer in the other. They were sending lead downrange while sending beer down their gullet. There was no concern for safety, while guns were being waved in the air. Complete stupidity at its best.

My brother and I beat a hasty retreat.

Last edited by truedog49; 03-24-2016 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 03-24-2016, 04:20 PM
AmericanEOD AmericanEOD is offline
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I must be the odd ball in the group because I do not understand why people are trying to do the math that allows them to drink and carry a loaded weapon.

My personal rules are simple:

If I am shooting with others and alcohol is brought out I will ask that it be put away until after the shoot. If I am ignored then I pack up my gear, thank the host for inviting me, and I will leave. As a non-drinker it is not my job to be the babysitter or to make sure that guy does not have "one too many". I will not get into a vehicle with a person who has been drinking so why the crap would I want to stand next to him when he has a loaded 45. I do not know how many drinks it takes to get you drunk so I will leave before the frist one.

I am 56 this year and the few drinks that I had over 30yrs ago did not make me shoot straighter, did not make me drive better, did not make me dance better, did not make my jokes funnier, did not make me a better soldier, did not make me smarter, and did not make that steak taste any better. Everyone I know drinks to some level or the other and I will not try to stop you but I will say that the math is easy. One beer plus one loaded gun equals a world of pain if there is an accident. As a good friend once told me: "What would a jury say?"
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