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  #1  
Old 03-20-2017, 09:49 AM
GlenS GlenS is offline
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Reloading carry ammo?

I have always heard that it is a bad idea to carry with reloaded ammo. If this is true why would someone buy premium bullets like GoldDots or XTP/HP bullets? I don't hesitate at all in carrying using ammo that I have loaded myself. Actually I prefer to carry ammo that I have loaded myself. I visually verify every step in the loading process. I have had factory loads that had deformed cases, no powder (bullet goes far enough to jam the gun up really bad), and believe it or not missing primers.

So, do you purchase these premium bullets and do you carry your own loaded ammo?
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  #2  
Old 03-20-2017, 10:10 AM
parallax parallax is online now
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Most simply think that the possible hassle if you are involved in a defensive shooting is not worth it. A overzealous, anti-2A prosecutor will seize upon anything they can to make you look like a bad guy, including loading your own "super-deadly ammo, because factory wan't good enough for you."

I use factory for carry, but I treat it just like I would my handloads that I use for competition and practice. EVERY round gets checked before it goes into a mag, ammo gets rotated, etc.
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  #3  
Old 03-20-2017, 10:17 AM
The Earl o Sammich The Earl o Sammich is offline
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I carry reloads. I haven't bought store bought ammo (other than .22 LR) in years.

Last edited by The Earl o Sammich; 03-20-2017 at 10:53 AM.
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  #4  
Old 03-20-2017, 10:54 AM
ambidextrous1 ambidextrous1 is online now
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I'm okay with reloads.

I'm still waiting for someone to report just one shooting case where the use of reloads in a personal defense case has been an issue.

Anyone?
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  #5  
Old 03-20-2017, 11:07 AM
Joshua M. Smith Joshua M. Smith is offline
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I reload my woods load. It's a cast truncated cone.

The factory loads put higher tech bullets into their optimum velocity ranges. I don't have time to work these loads up, so I buy them.

A small part of it is fear of litigation, but it just falls into the category of "one less thing to worry about" and not as a true fear.

If I can't find factory-loaded jacketed or plated truncated cone soon, I may end up loading some in NEW brass. HANDloading them, not REloading them.

Regards,

Josh
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  #6  
Old 03-20-2017, 11:27 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I roll my own for carry.

Sure an ambitious DA could try to use it against you. They could try to use the color of the shirt you were wearing on the day of the shooting against you also. "He was wearing a red shirt, the color of blood!"

IMO if it is a good shoot and you have a good lawyer. An assistant DA that tries something like this will just make themselves look stupid and help to get you cleared.
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  #7  
Old 03-20-2017, 01:57 PM
NonHyphenAmerican NonHyphenAmerican is offline
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I'm to the point I roll my own for every use.

All of the "Factory Ammo" I have is kept back for those times when I won't easily be able to retrieve my brass or for .22lr.

What it comes down to is, if you have to shoot, you want it to go "Bang" and be accurate.

As for the old legal mumbo jumbo of "They'll persecute you harder!"?

I don't believe I've ever seen nor heard of a case where that has actually happened.

I could be proven wrong, but you'd think that with almost 2,500 people murdered by guns, that someone would have been told "Well, you loaded your own ammunition so that makes you more of a killer."

Of course, there's also been almost 7,300 murders by automobile and nobody has been prosecuted harder because they changed their own oil.
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  #8  
Old 03-20-2017, 02:40 PM
Alex Wilson Alex Wilson is offline
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Old wives tails and internet hearsay. I use reloads in all of my carry guns. 9mm, 10mm, 45acp.

I promise you, if you use some fancy factory ammo and shoot someone when it's not justified, you're going to federal pound me in the ass prison.

I you shoot someone with reloads and it's justified, it's justified.
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  #9  
Old 03-20-2017, 03:27 PM
Rontech496 Rontech496 is offline
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So what lubricant should I use??
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  #10  
Old 03-20-2017, 07:19 PM
Cappi Cappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenS View Post
I have always heard that it is a bad idea to carry with reloaded ammo.
`

Mas Ayoob is the guru that pounds that drum loudest and longest.
Many subscribe to, or share the same philosophy



Quote:
If this is true why would someone buy premium bullets like GoldDots or XTP/HP bullets?
Hunting deer and/or defense against thin skinned critters like dogs/wolves, 'yotes, big cats, etc, I reckon



I don't load my own self defense ammo..not because I share Ayoob's philosophy, but because I'm lazy and don't particularly enjoy loading
(It's a necessary chore to me)

I'll admit I'm not a terribly frugal individual , but..... $25 bukz for a 50 rnd box of Fed HST or Gold Dots from SGammo won't make or break me given the amount of SD ammo I shoot a year.
I'll let them load it for me


.L.T.A.
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Last edited by Cappi; 03-20-2017 at 07:22 PM.
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  #11  
Old 03-20-2017, 08:00 PM
erikk erikk is offline
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I also have not purchased factory except 22's for many decades & even carried them on the job as a 158 gr lead in a 38 spl didn't impress me very much
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  #12  
Old 03-20-2017, 09:47 PM
NonHyphenAmerican NonHyphenAmerican is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rontech496 View Post
So what lubricant should I use??
OMG!

Don't ask a Lube Question.

You'll wake "THEM" up.

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I leave this rule for others when I'm dead, Be always sure you're right ó THEN GO AHEAD! Davy Crockett
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  #13  
Old 03-20-2017, 09:59 PM
walks with gun walks with gun is offline
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As far as factory ammo being more reliable, I don't know if that's always the case. Years ago,I had a Remington factory 230gr. ball lodge in my barrel just far enough that the slide didn't close far enough to fire the second round. Then just before deer season a friend bought two boxes of Remington 30-06 for his new rifle. While sighting in, two of the twelve rounds failed to fire, even after trying them again. Not a Remington basher but just saying, factory ammo can fail as well although the chances i suppose are much less.
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  #14  
Old 03-20-2017, 10:46 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Post of the week for sure!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NonHyphenAmerican View Post
OMG!

Don't ask a Lube Question.

You'll wake "THEM" up.

If not the month!
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  #15  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:04 AM
AZ Desertrat AZ Desertrat is offline
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Yes, I do. Until we see a whole bunch of dumbo attorneys using the dreadful...
"oh no....you made killer bullets" instead of using factory....Ill stick to my own.
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  #16  
Old 03-21-2017, 11:17 AM
Joshua M. Smith Joshua M. Smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
If not the month!
Yesterday I degreased a 1911 frame as part of a deep cleaning.

When I oiled it back up, I rubbed Lucas Gun Oil into the Parkerizing, then applied a light oil film to the rails with a Q-Tip.



Josh
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  #17  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:09 PM
phonejack phonejack is offline
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I've been reloading 45 years. I trust mine over factory, more accurate also.
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  #18  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:35 PM
Rontech496 Rontech496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonHyphenAmerican View Post
OMG!

Don't ask a Lube Question.

You'll wake "THEM" up.

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  #19  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:02 PM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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The mag I currently have in my EDC is loaded with factory SD rounds.
My spare mag has my handloads in it.
Best of both worlds.
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  #20  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:25 PM
drail drail is offline
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It is not at all difficult to handload ammo that is easily FAR superior to ANYTHING the factories are currently producing. The ammo makers are currently offering the worst product I have ever seen and at the highest prices I have ever seen. They have always had some problems with QC but today I don't think most of them even HAVE a QC dept. I have seen rounds with no powder, no flash hole and primers inserted upside down and sideways and cases that are so out of spec. that you can press a bullet back into the case with your thumb. No one appears to be inspecting anything anymore. No thanks. As far as carrying and using handloads - I really don't believe there are any prosecuting attorneys anywhere that would even be able to tell the difference. "Maybe" if they sent it to a really good lab. Maybe. Probably not. The real problem here would be the juries who are made up of people that watch all of those stupid N.C.I.S. TV shows and believe every word. People like that can be convinced of anything with no scientific proof whatsoever. Imagine being tried and convicted by a jury made up of of 5 year olds and sentenced by a Judge who believe "assault rifles" should be banned and who voted for Hillary.

Last edited by drail; 03-21-2017 at 01:41 PM.
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  #21  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:48 PM
robertrwalsh robertrwalsh is offline
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I do NOT carry home loads for serious self defense purposes. It opens up the POSSIBILITY that a lawyer or DA will try to make you out to be some psycho who was just itching to try out his "home-made bullets" on some poor innocent bystander. Why give somebody an opening if you don't have to? Plus, factory ammo has a known, provable dispersal pattern and you can PROVE (within reason) how far away you were and other things when shooting factory ammo that will be harder or maybe impossible with your own loads. Why give them an opening? It SHOULDN"T matter one bit, but it could.
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  #22  
Old 03-21-2017, 02:11 PM
parallax parallax is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rontech496 View Post
So what lubricant should I use??
Astroglide.
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  #23  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:13 PM
wormraper wormraper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
I do NOT carry home loads for serious self defense purposes. It opens up the POSSIBILITY that a lawyer or DA will try to make you out to be some psycho who was just itching to try out his "home-made bullets" on some poor innocent bystander. Why give somebody an opening if you don't have to? Plus, factory ammo has a known, provable dispersal pattern and you can PROVE (within reason) how far away you were and other things when shooting factory ammo that will be harder or maybe impossible with your own loads. Why give them an opening? It SHOULDN"T matter one bit, but it could.
I'm sorry but that's internet hooey. There's also the possibility of a lawyer bringing up that you were shooting Golden Sabers or Gold Dots... you were shooting "police" ammo, stuff that is super powered and only meant for police to take down badguys!!! (yes some lawywers have brought it up). if we keep jumping at shadows we'd never carry ANYTHING

I mean, by all means carry what you like. The track record of a stable SD ammo load from your mfger of choice is a great reason to always carry what you know, but the idea that you MIGHT, SOMEHOW open yourself up by using a certain hand load is about as far fetched as the lawyer pulling the opposite end as well (calling you over aggressive cuz you're using "cop" bullets). there's always a possibility that ANY option you choose will be scrutinized, it's called a lawyer looking for anything to throw against a wall. Whether it has merit or not is a completely different story.

Last edited by wormraper; 03-21-2017 at 03:17 PM.
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  #24  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:24 PM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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for sure there is more chance of something going wrong if you are in a state that frowns on self-defense. In most states, you have nothing to worry about unless it is a bad or marginal shoot. In a good shoot, you will be unlikely to ever need to worry about an attorney.

I suggest people do whatever gives them peace of mind.
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  #25  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:51 PM
rickgman rickgman is offline
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OK, here's what Massad Ayoob really stated:

Handloads for self-defense: the Daniel Bias case
Massad Ayoob


Situation: Authorities try to determine if a death was suicide, blameless accident, manslaughter, or murder by replicating gunshot residue.

Lessons: Load easily replicable factory rounds in your defense guns ... and don't leave firearms where suicidal people can access them.

May, 1990. I hang up the telephone and lean back in the chair in my office and utter the words, "Damn it!"

John Lanza, the attorney defending a young man against a charge of Murder, has just told me, "The state will contend that a different load with a different powder charge was used than what we determined from the defendant's reloading notes was likely to have been in the gun at the time the fatal shot was fired."

It's important. It's very important. The difference is whether it's Murder as charged, or a man trying to pull the gun out of the hand of a woman he loves as she tries to commit suicide ... and tragically, failing to stop her.

The bullet that tore through Lise Bias' brain and killed her almost instantly had been fired from a Smith & Wesson Model 686, a heavy-duty stainless steel target-grade service revolver which, in this case, had a 6" barrel. The rifling marks conclusively showed the death bullet had been fired from this particular firearm, serial number AFH3446. Both prosecution and defense would stipulate this was the death weapon.

The problem was that the prosecution thought it was a murder weapon.

The Handload

Dan and Lise Bias were a young couple trying to conceive their first baby. Childless after five years of marriage, Lise was taking fertility drugs. Daniel N. Bias, Jr., 26, was a gun enthusiast who reloaded his own ammunition, and a competitive-level archer. He desperately wanted his young wife to get more interested in his hobby, and he felt it imperative she have a defense gun of her own.

Lise, 27, was recoil sensitive, and more comfortable with a revolver than an autoloader. Danny chose the 686 for her and set about handcrafting a mild .38 Special load that wouldn't kick much. He found a mould for an unusually light .357" diameter bullet, a 115gr. semi-wadcutter, and cast a batch of them. He loaded up 50 rounds, in Federal .38 Special cases that happened to be marked "+P." Having looked up popular light target loads for the 148-grain full wadcutter projectile, he decided to try three recipes with Bullseye powder: 2.3, 2.6 and 2.9 grains. Each was primed with Winchester small pistol primers, and all were in the same box, externally identical to one another. Lise had never liked guns, and went shooting with Danny only to please him; he found she could handle these loads in the 686, the only handgun she had ever fired, and decided to load them into the revolver for home defense, and put the gun under their bed.

More than a year before, Lise had become depressed and threatened to shoot herself.

This fact was recorded at a local hospital. Danny, believing her to be "over it," had thought it was now safe to leave the loaded revolver readily accessible in their bedroom.

The Incident

At approximately 9 p.m. on the night of February 26, 1989, the Model 686 was discharged once at the Bias' home in Phillipsburg, New Jersey. The handloaded 115-grain lead bullet punched into the left side of Lise's skull 2 1/2" behind and 1 1/4" above the ear canal. It drilled through the cerebellum and through the temporal and parietal lobes, coming to a stop deep inside her brain. Death was instantaneous. She was pronounced DOS, dead on scene.

She and Danny were alone in the master bedroom when it happened. Danny said they had watched America's Most Wanted and Married With Children on TV, then folded laundry together. Lise had told Danny she wanted to buy a ring, he had replied she had enough jewelry and an argument erupted. An investigator who took Danny's statement characterized it as follows, verbatim.

"He proceeded downstairs and laid on the couch and watched TV. She came down with the .357 magnum in both hands. She stated that she had just got done watching a movie on TV and that 'it was so easy to shoot you any time I wanted.' He told her to 'stop ****in' around,' and to put the gun away. She went upstairs to apparently put the gun upstairs, and approximately two minutes later he followed to ascertain if she did. When he walked in the master bedroom, he observed her standing in front of the mirror with the gun in her left hand pointing it at her head. He thought she was joking because of the fact she is right-handed and had the gun in her left hand. When she didn't acknowledge that he was standing there, he made a 'rash decision to grab it before she hurt herself.' He grabbed her left hand with his left hand and pulled the gun back. At that instant the gun fired and she slid off the dresser falling on a portable heater."

Handload Confusion

The revolver was found with two of its six chambers empty, one containing the spent casing from the fatal shot, and three more containing Danny's live handloads. He explained to authorities he customarily loaded the gun with only four cartridges. An empty chamber was kept under the hammer, and the cylinder was set so that the first pull of the trigger would cause the hammer to fall harmlessly on the next empty chamber. He was afraid that Lise might get panicky, and wanted the gun set so it would take two deliberate pulls of the trigger to fire it in self-defense. This would turn out to become a significant issue in the case, but not until much later.

The gun had been loaded with its four rounds at random from the box that contained 2.3 grain, 2.6 grain, and 2.9 grain Bullseye reloads. There was no way to determine which of the three powder charges was behind the bullet that entered Lise Bias' head.

Other ammunition was confiscated from the Bias home as evidence after Lise's death. The warrant search reported turning up eight semi-wad-cutter .38 Special cartridges from a desk in the attic; another from elsewhere; "two jacketed .38 cal"; and "one spent casing (headstamped) W Super W 38 SPL +P."

Danny was careful to tell the investigators the revolver had been charged with handloads. During the grand jury inquest, the following exchange came with a senior investigator on the stand:

Prosecutor: "In fact, the uh, the rounds that were uh, taken that night and the rounds that were tested were rounds that Mr. Bias himself had reloaded, is that correct?"

Sergeant: "Yes, that's correct."

However, the test ammunition taken from the Bias home and submitted to the crime lab for examination included cartridges with R-P, Remington-Peters, headstamps. The loads in the gun, and in the box it was loaded from, were all in Federal +P cases.

Apparently, the handloads taken for testing were full power loads. They deposited visible gunshot residue until a distance of 50" was reached. Factory Federal 158-grain lead semi-wadcutter +P would leave visible GSR at that distance or greater.

No particulate matter, sooting, tattooing, or other evidence of GSR of any kind had been found on Lise Bias' hair, head or clothing. The medical examiner took pains to measure the dead woman's arm's reach, and determined approximately 30" for that measurement. The investigators and experts were unanimous at the trial: she could not have shot herself without leaving gunshot residue.

The grand jury indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree.

The Trials

I obtained the necessary mould, and working with gunsmith and expert witness Nolan Santy, put together exemplars of all three of Danny's handloads that were in the mixed box. The three remaining cartridges from the death weapon could not be disassembled or test-fired. They were the property of the court, evidence in what was developing as a murder case, and the necessary tests would literally "destroy the evidence." It was not permitted.

Exemplar evidence is evidence that is not the actual thing at the crime scene, but is identical to it. With the duplicate loads in an exemplar six-inch Smith, Santy and I determined the 2.3 grain Bullseye load with the little 115-grain bullet would deposit GSR to perhaps three feet. At that distance, it left only about a dozen loose particles. At 24" there was still only loose particles, and even at 20" the powder would still be in very loose particles, with virtually nothing embedded. The 2.6-grain and 2.9-grain loads deposited slightly more GSR particles, but still very loose with virtually nothing embedding. Particulate matter from these light loads was so sparse and had hit the white cotton cloth (the same background that had been used by the crack NJSP crime lab in Trenton for the prosecution's testing) so feebly it fell away from the cloth from the force of gravity.

Thus, the indications were that with the loads we believed to have been actually in the gun, the GSR would be so sparse and lightly deposited it was entirely possible none remained by the time the body was forensically examined the day after the shooting. There was considerable bleeding from the entry wound. Blood is liquid, and liquid washes things away. Blood is viscous, and sticky substances can obscure tiny particles. Given the light loads in the gun, in short, it was entirely possible Danny Bias was telling the truth and the gun had been in Lise's hand when it discharged, and there were well-established reasons why no GSR might have been found on the body when the totality of the circumstances were considered.

Continued in the next message.
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