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Old 04-13-2020, 03:32 PM
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S&W post-2000 year models

Why so much dislike for post-2000 revolvers? Is it JUST the internal lock, or are there other reasons?
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Old 04-13-2020, 04:42 PM
Twanger Twanger is offline
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My experience is a sample of one but my 4" 629 44 mag purchased new a decade back has been a great shooter. All it needed was some trigger work. It's straight, fit and finish is excellent, locks up tight and always worked perfect. Hate the Hillary hole but that is the only downer. I own several Smith's vintage 1960's/70's for comparison.
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Old 04-13-2020, 05:44 PM
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For me, I very much disslike the safety hole in the side of the frame.

I only own two recent Smith revolvers, 929s. Both of which I yanked the cylinders and barrels out of and put them in older, non-safety, N frames I had laying around.
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Old 04-13-2020, 06:03 PM
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Ive read that "hot loads" can inadvertantly vibrate the revolver into a locked position. Would having a smiff remove/disable the internal lock make it more desireable, or is it truly the "hole" that bothers most folks??

Reason I ask, I found a new revolver I really like. Its a limited edition (1 of 300) model from Altamont that has scroll work...but it has the lock. Wondered if that would make it less collectable/desireable to the revolver crowd.
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Old 04-13-2020, 08:27 PM
Al Booth Al Booth is offline
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Besides the lock, the other thing(s) I dislike are the increased use of MIM internal parts.
I have been inside a lot of bot older and newer S&Ws, and graduated from the old S&W police armorer school, so I know how fit them the old school way.
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Old 04-13-2020, 08:58 PM
RON in PA RON in PA is offline
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Smith revolvers locking up due to the lock self activating did occur in some small J frames when shot with .357 loads, but reports about this occurred when such guns first came on the market. Not much recently and in K, L and N it didn't seem to happen. Current collectors do get turned off by the lock, but I think in a decade or two nobody will care as much. I think if you like the gun you should get it, especially if you want to soot it. I have a number of Smiths with the lock and have never had one self activate.
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  #7  
Old 04-13-2020, 09:17 PM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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The hate for the lock stems from the reason it's there in the first place, rather than the lock itself. The frame profile of the K frame had to be tweaked to accommodate the lock, so now it looks "fat."

Overall quality is decent, but the resell value of locked equipped guns isn't as good, and they're just simply ugly. My double action revolver money goes to Ruger and Colt, until that lock goes away. Ruger got rid of theirs when we complained, now it's time for S&W to do the same.
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Old 04-13-2020, 09:31 PM
Jason D Jason D is offline
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For me personally, it's mostly looks. The lock in the side of the frame ruins the look of the gun. Taurus revolvers have had locks longer than S&W, and no one complains about them. They were out of the way and unnoticeable.

S&W on the other hand drills a damn hole in the side of the gun... The working side of the gun that you pretty much have to look at every time it's in your hand. Some of the worst trigger pulls I've ever seen on a Smith, was on a lock gun. Though, I have never taken one apart to see if it interferes with the trigger pull.

I am not opposed to a locking system, but I want the choice to choose. I can lock my **** up in the safe, I don't need a lock on the gun I'd never use.
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Old 04-13-2020, 09:31 PM
Austin_TX Austin_TX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RON in PA View Post
Current collectors do get turned off by the lock, but I think in a decade or two nobody will care as much.
I definitely wouldn't put any money on your prediction.
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Old 04-13-2020, 11:45 PM
1911crazy 1911crazy is offline
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My LGS had a sale on all s&w n frames with the mim/ loc for $699 I think I can accept the nib n frames for that, anything in nickel gets my vote.
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Old 04-14-2020, 08:53 AM
buck460XVR buck460XVR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911crazy View Post
My LGS had a sale on all s&w n frames with the mim/ loc for $699 I think I can accept the nib n frames for that, anything in nickel gets my vote.
Nickle? I'm bettin' you'll have to settle for Stainless, unless you want to have an aftermarket nickle job done.

I have Smiths with the IL and without. Personally, I spend much more time looking down the sights of all of them, than I do staring at the left side. To me, the so called "Hillary Hole" is less obtrusive that the Billboard warning sign on the side of many Rugers. As for MIM.....most everyone that mass produces firearms uses them. They are time tested and proven to be just as reliable as hand-fitted and much more consistent. Ugly? As others have said, there are much uglier revolvers out there, even without the hole. Big thick Frames and square corners. No, A S&W is like a good looking blonde. Everyone wants her, but those who can't, feel the need to make "dumb" blonde jokes to make themselves feel better.....

Out of all my S&Ws, my newer ones with the hole, are the most accurate. Some of those are models never produced before the "hole". Coupla of them with MIM triggers have the best breaking actions of all of them. I have models all the way from Airweight 637s to my primary deer hunting revolver, a .460 X-Frame. Both of those have the "hole", both of those have been shot thousands of times with heavy loads. Never had a lock-up due to the IL. Generally it's a loose extractor rod. For the price, you can not get a better shooting, better looking D.A. revolver than a Smith. For the price, no other manufacturer gives you a lifetime warranty. If you are making your decision on owning one purely on the "hole"......you are missing out.
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Old 04-14-2020, 10:13 AM
Pizza Bob Pizza Bob is offline
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I get so tired of these threads decrying the use of MIM and the internal lock (IL).

Let's deal with the lock first - if you don't like it, disable it or remove it. Is it the hole you object to? There are plugs made to fill that hole. People who deny themselves some of the finest revolvers that Smith has ever made because of the lock are only leaving more on the table for me.

As for MIM, that technology has allowed Smith to maintain realistic pricing while not compromising the quality of the product. MIM parts are dimensionally more consistent than the forged counterparts and help reduce or eliminate the amount of hand fitting necessary. I consistently hear gunsmiths saying that the factory triggers on MIM guns are some of the best Smith has ever produced and need far less work to make them competition ready. Next time you are on a plane, look out the window at the turbines in the jet engines - they are most likely MIM components.

I've been a shooter for about 60 years and it always amuses me to hear the current generation pine for the previous generation's guns. Without realizing that the subsequent generation will be pining for the guns they complained about so vociferously.

I collect S&W revolvers and I would never let the presence of MIM or the IL stand in the way of acquiring a desirable revolver. My collection is eclectic and of the modern era (from 1950 forward) and contains Smiths of all stripes - as it should.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

EDITED to add for the OP: You stated <<Reason I ask, I found a new revolver I really like. Its a limited edition (1 of 300) model from Altamont that has scroll work...but it has the lock. Wondered if that would make it less collectable/desireable to the revolver crowd.>>

An engraved revolver is generally considered a collectible and not expected to be shot. If I saw that someone had modified one from an "as built" condition, I'd conclude that it had been shot or otherwise fiddled with and would greatly devalue that particular gun. A word to the wise: Concentrate on the beauty of the gun and the artwork and don't be swayed by what you may perceive as negative attributes. You may end up shooting yourself in the foot, so to speak.

PB
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Last edited by Pizza Bob; 04-14-2020 at 10:31 AM.
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  #13  
Old 04-14-2020, 10:24 AM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Originally Posted by buck460XVR View Post
Nickle? I'm bettin' you'll have to settle for Stainless, unless you want to have an aftermarket nickle job done.

I have Smiths with the IL and without. Personally, I spend much more time looking down the sights of all of them, than I do staring at the left side. To me, the so called "Hillary Hole" is less obtrusive that the Billboard warning sign on the side of many Rugers. As for MIM.....most everyone that mass produces firearms uses them. They are time tested and proven to be just as reliable as hand-fitted and much more consistent. Ugly? As others have said, there are much uglier revolvers out there, even without the hole. Big thick Frames and square corners. No, A S&W is like a good looking blonde. Everyone wants her, but those who can't, feel the need to make "dumb" blonde jokes to make themselves feel better.....

Out of all my S&Ws, my newer ones with the hole, are the most accurate. Some of those are models never produced before the "hole". Coupla of them with MIM triggers have the best breaking actions of all of them. I have models all the way from Airweight 637s to my primary deer hunting revolver, a .460 X-Frame. Both of those have the "hole", both of those have been shot thousands of times with heavy loads. Never had a lock-up due to the IL. Generally it's a loose extractor rod. For the price, you can not get a better shooting, better looking D.A. revolver than a Smith. For the price, no other manufacturer gives you a lifetime warranty. If you are making your decision on owning one purely on the "hole"......you are missing out.
I don't believe in giving my dog treats when he bites me just because other things he does is nice. There are too many used S&Ws for me to reward a company's refusal to listen to customer feedback. I've fired new S&Ws and have come to the conclusion that I'm not missing out on anything meaningful. MIM Is perfectly fine, and pinned barrels aren't really needed. But the lock just looks like pure malice, especially when they can remove it anytime they like but choose not to.
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Old 04-14-2020, 10:53 AM
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I began to lose interest in new Smiths when they switched to MIM parts, but the Hillary Hole did it in for me. Funny thing is, I have cheap Rossi and Taurus handguns with similar crap and they don't really bother me, but on a $750+ Smith & Wesson it's an absolute eyesore and a reminder of the day when a British-owned S&W got down and kissed the anti-gunner's collective asses.

For the same reason, if I ever buy an M1A rifle I definitely WILL add a bayonet lug to it. The current ones without the lug look neutered to me. Forget the fact that I will never, ever use it. Even 16" barrels on an M4 bug me, but I can't do anything about that so I have to live with it.
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Old 04-14-2020, 11:35 AM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is online now
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I don't like the hillary hole but could live with it. Having held & shot an older N frame & new N frame, there is a different feel to them. I think, but have not measured, the frame is slightly deeper on the new N frame. They do have a slightly different feel.
Would I buy a new S&W revolver if I wanted one? Maybe, I think they are very high quality guns. Oh the newer N frame was very accurate & no unwanted lockup.
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Old 04-14-2020, 02:55 PM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza Bob View Post
I get so tired of these threads decrying the use of MIM and the internal lock (IL).

Let's deal with the lock first - if you don't like it, disable it or remove it. Is it the hole you object to? There are plugs made to fill that hole. People who deny themselves some of the finest revolvers that Smith has ever made because of the lock are only leaving more on the table for me.

As for MIM, that technology has allowed Smith to maintain realistic pricing while not compromising the quality of the product. MIM parts are dimensionally more consistent than the forged counterparts and help reduce or eliminate the amount of hand fitting necessary. I consistently hear gunsmiths saying that the factory triggers on MIM guns are some of the best Smith has ever produced and need far less work to make them competition ready. Next time you are on a plane, look out the window at the turbines in the jet engines - they are most likely MIM components.

I've been a shooter for about 60 years and it always amuses me to hear the current generation pine for the previous generation's guns. Without realizing that the subsequent generation will be pining for the guns they complained about so vociferously.

I collect S&W revolvers and I would never let the presence of MIM or the IL stand in the way of acquiring a desirable revolver. My collection is eclectic and of the modern era (from 1950 forward) and contains Smiths of all stripes - as it should.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

EDITED to add for the OP: You stated <<Reason I ask, I found a new revolver I really like. Its a limited edition (1 of 300) model from Altamont that has scroll work...but it has the lock. Wondered if that would make it less collectable/desireable to the revolver crowd.>>

An engraved revolver is generally considered a collectible and not expected to be shot. If I saw that someone had modified one from an "as built" condition, I'd conclude that it had been shot or otherwise fiddled with and would greatly devalue that particular gun. A word to the wise: Concentrate on the beauty of the gun and the artwork and don't be swayed by what you may perceive as negative attributes. You may end up shooting yourself in the foot, so to speak.

PB
Thanks PB, you saved me some typing..Lol

And the Heritage series made post 2000 are some of the nicest revolvers S&W produced.
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Old 04-14-2020, 11:22 PM
jc2721 jc2721 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FNHipowerluv View Post
The hate for the lock stems from the reason it's there in the first place, rather than the lock itself. The frame profile of the K frame had to be tweaked to accommodate the lock, so now it looks "fat."
+1 the re-contouring of the frame made it look like a bloated whale. S&W finally re-did the frame contouring on some of the revolvers recently but the damage was already done. The hole doesn't bother me as much as the "fat" frame.

FWIW, I bought a dozen or so Smith revolvers in the past year, none have the lock.
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  #18  
Old 04-15-2020, 10:38 AM
bmcgilvray bmcgilvray is online now
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Smith & Wesson went from being my favorite gun company to a nonentity to me when the lock came out. It's too easy to buy the great Smith & Wessons that I admire to waste funds on comparatively ugly revolvers with locks, two-piece barrels, swollen frames, and MIM parts. Yeah, they might serve just as well, but they're in no way superior.

While I was shooting it I did experience a lock that failed and locked up a Smith & Wesson revolver belonging to someone else. I will never experience such a failure with a Smith & Wesson revolver here because none of them have the wretched lock. Smith & Wessons are used for personal defense and that would be a sick feeling to desperately pull a trigger that will not budge.

The company's wholesale embrace of cheap plastic for their automatics to the exclusion of some quite decent models they were formerly marketing only punctuated my personal disgust. I did try a .40 Shield and it's ok for what it is, but I don't take it seriously.
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Old 04-15-2020, 10:58 AM
Lppd4 Lppd4 is offline
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I'm not sure what you mean by a swollen frame. Is it fatter than it used to be or is it recontoured on the top, near the hammer?
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Old 04-15-2020, 11:33 AM
bmcgilvray bmcgilvray is online now
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Yes, that's what I mean, recontoured.
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  #21  
Old 04-15-2020, 02:05 PM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flight Medic View Post
Ive read that "hot loads" can inadvertantly vibrate the revolver into a locked position. Would having a smiff remove/disable the internal lock make it more desireable, or is it truly the "hole" that bothers most folks??

Reason I ask, I found a new revolver I really like. Its a limited edition (1 of 300) model from Altamont that has scroll work...but it has the lock. Wondered if that would make it less collectable/desireable to the revolver crowd.
Trust me, I am not being smart alleky, but I've learned in buying a gun YOU are the only one you really have to please. If you really want it grab it, I don't like the hole, but do think they are fine guns.
Good shooting.
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Old 04-15-2020, 02:11 PM
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I like older Smiths. I am with DSK regarding his reasoning.

Bought this '69 Model 28-2 not long ago...unfired outside of the factory.

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  #23  
Old 04-15-2020, 05:24 PM
Brent Chambers Brent Chambers is offline
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I've bought and sold far more pre-locks, but I've never had a problem with a lock gun.

I find the bluing on the current Classic series to be very impressive.

I'm not in the market for a S&W right now, but if the Performance Center does a 610 at some point I won't be able to order one fast enough to join these:

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  #24  
Old 04-15-2020, 08:33 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Revolver collector here

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
Thanks PB, you saved me some typing..Lol

And the Heritage series made post 2000 are some of the nicest revolvers S&W produced.
Yes indeed thank you PB!

I have XX without the lock I have 2 with. I see no reason to ignore the new Smiths!

Smiles,
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  #25  
Old 04-15-2020, 10:01 PM
pat_jones pat_jones is online now
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My 627 match gun has over 40k rounds thru it with the lock still installed, no failures yet.

The current generation of Smith revolvers are on average, better timed than any built in the past.

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