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  #1  
Old 04-21-2020, 01:07 AM
johnireland johnireland is offline
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Carrying without a CCW?

First, I'm not sure how many people in this country have CCWs. I assume most retired LEO, lots of judges and DAs, jewelry merchants, body guards, reserve police officers, off duty police officers...who am I missing?

Back in the time before and after the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles, I had to travel down to south central LA once a week on a Wednesday night. The area I had to visit was on MLK Blvd and had apartment complexes with lots of gang activity. I did not have a CCW but I simply made the decision and took a full frame Springfield Armory .45 with me, cocked and locked and with a spare mag. I considered it risk management.

Considering how hard getting a CCW is in many parts of the country, I'm wondering how many people do or did like I did and are or sometimes carrying without the permit. No way of really knowing but I'd be interested in getting some educated guesses.

As for today, if I felt society (or a particular neighborhood) was getting out of hand, and yet I had no choice but expose myself to it...I think I'd do exactly as I did years ago.
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  #2  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:34 AM
SFC Rick SFC Rick is offline
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I always carried, but when it became legal I just got a Carry license. No need to be a criminal when you can do it legally. But you have to do what you have to do to stay alive. If I couldn't carry with a license I'd still carry.
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  #3  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:20 AM
400cor-bon 400cor-bon is offline
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Here in NC, I would just open carry.
Got my CCW and now CC.
You gotta do what you gotta do
Judged by 12 is better than carried by 6
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  #4  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:26 AM
Zerodefect Zerodefect is offline
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Some elderly neighbors of mine have carried every day since the 50's. No CCW, nothing.

Do what you have to do.
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  #5  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:49 AM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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In my state, open carry and concealed carry are legal without a permit. I did get my CCW permit anyway in case I travel to another state. Like Jeff Cooper said "An armed society is a polite society."
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  #6  
Old 04-21-2020, 12:20 PM
drail drail is offline
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People in America carried sidearms for many years with no permission or "license" from any Govt. Then one day the Govt. decided that you needed to ask permission and buy a license from them. The Govt. never asked anyone if they thought this was a good idea. They just did it.
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  #7  
Old 04-21-2020, 03:26 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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If you believe Wiki......as of 2019, there are 18.66 million CCW permits in the US.
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  #8  
Old 04-21-2020, 04:10 PM
EL Perdido EL Perdido is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsvette View Post
In my state, open carry and concealed carry are legal without a permit. I did get my CCW permit anyway in case I travel to another state. Like Jeff Cooper said "An armed society is a polite society."
Actually it was Robert Heinlein in his 1948 book Beyond This Horizon. Full quote below...

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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  #9  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:54 PM
GTAW GTAW is offline
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Here in California it wasn't hard in the county I live in to get a CCW.
The biggest arguement I have with the current law is that its entirely up to the citing officer to make the call whether or not the gun is LOADED.
For example, depending on the officers mood during a routine traffic stop, I have my empty 1911 in a locked box BUT there's an unopened box of ammunition in a bag next to it that I just purchased from the LGS. Perhaps I didn't pull over quite far enough, it's up to that officer to decide what is or isn't a "LOADED weapon".
No joke. Empty gun in a locked box and a box of ammo next to it on the back seat or under the seat or in the center console. Here in California that would be a misdemeanor.
I carry a gun to use it IF/WHEN necessary. California law basically makes it impossible for you to have access to your pistol (and ammo) for self protection.
A CCW was the only way for me to have a pistol AND the ability to use it for self defense.



"The law abiding citizen is the only thing controlled by gun control."

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  #10  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:14 PM
RickD427 RickD427 is online now
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Originally Posted by GTAW View Post
Here in California it wasn't hard in the county I live in to get a CCW.
The biggest arguement I have with the current law is that its entirely up to the citing officer to make the call whether or not the gun is LOADED.
For example, depending on the officers mood during a routine traffic stop, I have my empty 1911 in a locked box BUT there's an unopened box of ammunition in a bag next to it that I just purchased from the LGS. Perhaps I didn't pull over quite far enough, it's up to that officer to decide what is or isn't a "LOADED weapon".
No joke. Empty gun in a locked box and a box of ammo next to it on the back seat or under the seat or in the center console. Here in California that would be a misdemeanor.
I carry a gun to use it IF/WHEN necessary. California law basically makes it impossible for you to have access to your pistol (and ammo) for self protection.
A CCW was the only way for me to have a pistol AND the ability to use it for self defense.



"The law abiding citizen is the only thing controlled by gun control."

-White
The question of whether a weapon is "Loaded" in California is a matter of statute and case law. The LEO done not get to make things up. It gets a little complicated because California has two different definitions of when a weapon is loaded.

Under the general definition, there must be a cartridge in or attached to the weapon in a manner that it could be fired through the normal operation of the weapon. A weapon cannot be considered as "loaded" based on the proximity of the ammunition to the weapon.

Under the special definition, a weapon is "Loaded" when the weapon and ammunition are under the immediate control of the same person. Under this definition, a weapon would be loaded if it were in proximity to the ammunition. But the special definition only applies to certain government buildings, the residences of certain government officials, portions of the city of Sacramento, at gun shows, and where the weapon is carried with the intent to commit a felony.

Under the traffic stop example you provided, the officer doesn't get to decide whether your weapon is loaded. If he stopped you within the special definition boundaries of Sacramento, the weapon would be loaded. If he stopped you on Main Street in San Francisco, and you weren't intending a felony, then your weapon would be unloaded.

Last edited by RickD427; 04-21-2020 at 09:17 PM.
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  #11  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:32 PM
GTAW GTAW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Main Street in San Francisco....then your weapon would be unloaded.
Response to this part of the reply...
Correction, your weapon would be confiscated in SF and likely never to be seen again.

I'm not an attorney sir, but my attorney is.
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  #12  
Old 04-21-2020, 11:30 PM
RickD427 RickD427 is online now
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Originally Posted by GTAW View Post
Response to this part of the reply...
Correction, your weapon would be confiscated in SF and likely never to be seen again.

I'm not an attorney sir, but my attorney is.
Can you cite some specific cases here. I keep hearing people suggest that San Francisco is a horror story for CCW, but to date not one person had been able to cite a factual case of this happening.

Who What, Where, and on What Date?
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  #13  
Old 04-22-2020, 08:05 AM
GTAW GTAW is offline
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Sometimes I just play it safe based on what's been told to me by people with far more life experience than I.

Google has the same answers for me as it does for you sir.

Open carry of it's legal. CC if it's legal. You do you. I play it safe even if there's a grey area of the law.
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  #14  
Old 04-22-2020, 08:42 AM
dwcooper dwcooper is offline
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Anyone involved in a self defense shooting is at great risk of a civil suit, regardless of whether or not the state district attorney decides to bring criminal charges. If you are involved in a situation like that, and are carrying without a permit in a state that requires one you are going to face charges by the state regardless of any justification to defend yourself, and it certainly will not help you in the civil suit to follow.
Principles aside, the small amount of time and expense to acquire a permit is far less than the cost in both that will be incurred without one, as well as losing your firearm. In addition, you'd likely be legally barred from acquiring a permit after that and if found to be in violation a second time you might have to do some jail time.
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  #15  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:02 AM
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AZ Husker AZ Husker is offline
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Thank God I live in the land of the free (so far).
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  #16  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:06 AM
Sistema1927 Sistema1927 is offline
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During my 1st NM CCW class, back when it was instituted, one of the instructors said "I have been carrying, legally and illegally" for the past 30 years." A good number of us nodded in agreement with him.
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  #17  
Old 04-22-2020, 01:42 PM
nikerret nikerret is offline
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Since 2008, I’ve been covered under LEOSA as a full time LEO. Kansas doesn’t require a permit for open or concealed carry (as long as you’re 21 and not otherwise prohibited, 18 for open carry). Kansas has offered permits since 2006. Until 2015, the permit was required to carry concealed. Open carry has always been legal (Permitless) unless restricted by local ordinance, which very few cities chose to put on the books. When I am no longer employed, I will get a permit as there are places the permit is valid, but the LEOSA isn’t, and vice versa. Another change they made, in 2015, was to allow LE and former LE to get a permit without taking the class. The fees to the State and Sheriff still must be paid.
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  #18  
Old 04-22-2020, 02:48 PM
RickD427 RickD427 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTAW View Post
Sometimes I just play it safe based on what's been told to me by people with far more life experience than I.

Google has the same answers for me as it does for you sir.

Open carry of it's legal. CC if it's legal. You do you. I play it safe even if there's a grey area of the law.
OK, I took your bait and tried a Google search. That didn't produce any confirmation where a properly licensed CCW holder, or where a person was lawfully transporting a weapon, had that weapon seized by law enforcement in San Francisco. I did find a lot of paranoid ramblings, but not one specific example. Apparently you cannot cite one either.

San Francisco is certainly a very nutso political jurisdiction. I'm sure that many in that city's government would like to see such weapons seized. But the rule of law still applies and that stops them from doing so, at least until the law is changed.

For the record, open carry is illegal in San Francisco, as it is in much of California. CCW Permits are extremely rare. The last I checked for the City and County of San Francisco, about ten years ago, they had two (2) CCW permits in issue.

I agree with you that it is certainly best to play it safe where the law is unclear, and I often offer that same advice in other forums. But at the same time, it's also good to to know enough about the statutes and the case law so that you don't carelessly toss too much into the "unclear" category.
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  #19  
Old 04-22-2020, 04:13 PM
GTAW GTAW is offline
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I can respect that.
Honestly, my information is not web based. Every two years for that past 8 I hear the same story's and warnings from the gentleman instructing my CCW renewal classes lol. I listen. I dont carry in SF regardless what google says or doesn't in this case.
I can always see both sides to a debate and in this case, if San Fransisco is so tight with the gun restrictions and not regarding CCW's from other parts of the state, why hasn't SF seen gun violence spike like in Chicago and NYC? Could be socioeconomics. Could be a topic for another thread.
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Old 04-22-2020, 04:32 PM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Originally Posted by bradsvette View Post
In my state, open carry and concealed carry are legal without a permit. I did get my CCW permit anyway in case I travel to another state. Like Jeff Cooper said "An armed society is a polite society."
This.
I thank God Almighty everyday that I don't live in a jurisdiction that puts so many restrictions on a God given, constitutionally protected right to defend myself & my family.

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Old 04-22-2020, 06:31 PM
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I'm ruled by joint beliefs in the U.S. Constitution, and "better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six"; I'll take my chances in court before I'll volunteer for a screwed-up social experiment.
YMMV.
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  #22  
Old 04-22-2020, 08:33 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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TRSOtto---------- Yes, I do believe Wiki. 18M CCW permits sounds about right. I hope even more folks get one.

I have one, so it's no issue for me. But I understand unlicensed folks carrying if:

1. They cannot get a CCW because of impossible-to-overcome local laws, AND........

2. They have good reason to suspect they need it (threats, stalkers, etc)

But illegally carrying unlicensed every day, while under no specific threat, just because you're too lazy to apply?

No, I think that's a poor life choice. And The Law agrees. Just get your CCW & rest easy.
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  #23  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:15 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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So going back to the original post.

Do you think that you should carry a gun to protect yourself from harm, or possible death? Despite laws or other obstacles in place to prevent you from doing this legally?

Well that is a pretty good question. My advice would be that all persons in such a situation should consider this carefully. I feel pretty comfortable about how I feel about this. But I am fortunate enough to live where this is pretty much a non issue. Going forward we will of course see what the future brings.
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Old 05-10-2020, 06:09 PM
DubfromGa DubfromGa is offline
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I carry everyday and everywhere unless it's a legally restricted area that I must have access to such as courthouse, etc.


Legal weapons permit that allows concealed carry.


75% of the time it' a 1911.....25% it's a J-frame.


The world we live in has changed. My hometown is bisected by interstates where heavy drug trafficking and such occur. I try to avoid fueling up our vehicles at stations near these interstate exits. Local news reports show much higher rate of crimes in these stations.


Even out in the counties the crystal meth impact is tremendous. I've seen things on the way to and from the deer woods that I'd never dream of seeing.


Times have changed.
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  #25  
Old 05-10-2020, 07:57 PM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Can you cite some specific cases here. I keep hearing people suggest that San Francisco is a horror story for CCW, but to date not one person had been able to cite a factual case of this happening.

Who What, Where, and on What Date?
Calguns has all the details. The good guy will be treated like a criminal by the system, if not the cops (not all though).

First, the penninsula sheriff won't issue a permit to a peasant anyway. Almost all of the Bay Area sheriffs will not issue them.

One of the best counties for California carry permits is El Dorado County. It's almost "shall issue" and the sheriff allows many guns on the permits. Many counties allow only 3-5 guns on the permit; a few only allow two.
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