Knife violence, the newest threat! - Page 2 - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:52 PM
glider glider is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,937
We were pointing out how dangerous a man with a knife is. We were not saying anyone should carry a knife rather than a firearm. Tenring, if you were at a mall not really paying attention to everyone I don't believe you could react that fast. By the time you realized what was happening and started your draw he would be on you. The reason for this training is so if there is a problem never let the other guy get within 25 feet of you. That is for a known threat. The mall scenario is just a bad deal, unless you identify the threat before they move you're probably going to get cut.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:53 PM
numb numb is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 131
Survivability from a handgun wound is much higher than a knife wound. Period. Dot.

Seen plenty of folks shot that survived. Knife injuries? Not so much. A cut to an artery on the arm or leg will lead to rapid death. If you face a trained person armed with a knife a close range , don't be surprised if you will a burning pain and look down to see your guts hitting your shoes.

There was an instance in the Philippines some years back where a gang of 10 or more folks attacked an old man in a robbery attempt. They did not know he was a Kali / Arnis master armed with a small knife. He killed quite a few of them, and injured the rest.

DO NOT underestimate any person armed with an edged weapon.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:02 PM
K0025xx K0025xx is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: n/e TN
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amos Iron Wolf View Post
A smart knife wielder won't show you the knife until they are already on you and striking. You may think you are shoving off an unarmed attacker only to feel what you didn't see.
You are exactly right. A person showing you a knife is begging to have it taken away from them.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #29  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:07 PM
K0025xx K0025xx is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: n/e TN
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by glider View Post
If a determined man with a knife is within 20 or less feet of someone He can get to them and stab them before they can draw a weapon and shoot, that is a fact taught in some training.
That's why self defense training is important, if you ever feel that you might be in this situation. There are better ways to handle a knife wielding assailant besides pulling a gun mainly because of the time/distance factor. If the gun is your only defense, good luck.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:15 PM
Tenring1911 Tenring1911 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by glider View Post
We were pointing out how dangerous a man with a knife is. We were not saying anyone should carry a knife rather than a firearm. Tenring, if you were at a mall not really paying attention to everyone I don't believe you could react that fast. By the time you realized what was happening and started your draw he would be on you. The reason for this training is so if there is a problem never let the other guy get within 25 feet of you. That is for a known threat. The mall scenario is just a bad deal, unless you identify the threat before they move you're probably going to get cut.
Understand did not want to eject shells in your direction, but 1.5 seconds is a long time ...... DVC
__________________
Many would still be alive if not for Gun Free Zones.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:21 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,240
Amos Iron Wolf -------- There is no "epidemic" of vehicle deaths, per your comparison. There are 37k of them a year (US)

Vs 33k for guns. That's a damn high comparative number as people use their cars at an average of 14,000 miles every year.



But your average adult does not use a gun every day. Most don't even own a gun.

The truth we gotta come to terms with, if we are being intellectually honest is this:

The massive amount of guns owned in our country is one of the driving factors in our homicide rate being higher than most, if not all, of the world's superpower nations.

So I have come to realize that in order to remain free politically, and to protect myself & my family I have to accept a certain amount of gun violence. By people who are NOT as law-abiding, as careful, as sober, or as sane.

So in an armed society some bad stuff is GOING to go down. It's inevitable. So either you accept a certain amount of deaths as a cost of freedom or you don't.

I accept it. Five homicides per 100,000 people? I'll take those odds.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:28 PM
K0025xx K0025xx is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: n/e TN
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenring1911 View Post
Thank you but I really don't need to, I understand it fine, it is not as stated in the post.
I can draw my firearm and get reasonable accurate rounds off in under 1.5 seconds.
LOL...sure you can. Maybe. When you're ready and dressed with the right holster, nothing in the way and under controlled circumstances but I hope you don't hang your hat...or bet your life...on that "ability".
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:32 PM
K0025xx K0025xx is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: n/e TN
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Amos Iron Wolf -------- There is no "epidemic" of vehicle deaths, per your comparison. There are 37k of them a year (US)

Vs 33k for guns. That's a damn high comparative number as people use their cars at an average of 14,000 miles every year.



But your average adult does not use a gun every day. Most don't even own a gun.

The truth we gotta come to terms with, if we are being intellectually honest is this:

The massive amount of guns owned in our country is one of the driving factors in our homicide rate being higher than most, if not all, of the world's superpower nations.

So I have come to realize that in order to remain free politically, and to protect myself & my family I have to accept a certain amount of gun violence. By people who are NOT as law-abiding, as careful, as sober, or as sane.

So in an armed society some bad stuff is GOING to go down. It's inevitable. So either you accept a certain amount of deaths as a cost of freedom or you don't.

I accept it. Five homicides per 100,000 people? I'll take those odds.
~60% of those deaths are from suicide and ~3% are accidental. That leaves roughly 12K deaths from violence or misuse, or "homicides".
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-14-2020, 07:21 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,240
K00225xx ----------- I know the numbers. The homicide rate is as I stated. And the gun deaths are as I stated.

The homicide rate is based just on homicides. The gun death rates are based on all gun deaths. I did not say otherwise.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-14-2020, 07:36 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rocky mountain area
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by K0025xx View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenring1911 View Post
Thank you but I really don't need to, I understand it fine, it is not as stated in the post.
I can draw my firearm and get reasonable accurate rounds off in under 1.5 seconds.
LOL...sure you can. Maybe. When you're ready and dressed with the right holster, nothing in the way and under controlled circumstances but I hope you don't hang your hat...or bet your life...on that "ability".
Too many believe speed of draw is key.....the ‘key’ is having your brain in gear, and if you’re unfortunate enough to have t on use your gun, speed of draw isn’t part of the equation.

I personally know, have taught and observed many fine, fast shooters.

Too many of them have their heads in a warm, dark place whenever they’re not ‘shooter ready?’.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-14-2020, 07:58 PM
Amos Iron Wolf Amos Iron Wolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Del Rio, Texas
Age: 63
Posts: 8,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Amos Iron Wolf -------- There is no "epidemic" of vehicle deaths, per your comparison. There are 37k of them a year (US)

Vs 33k for guns. That's a damn high comparative number as people use their cars at an average of 14,000 miles every year....

...So I have come to realize that in order to remain free politically, and to protect myself & my family I have to accept a certain amount of gun violence. By people who are NOT as law-abiding, as careful, as sober, or as sane.

So in an armed society some bad stuff is GOING to go down. It's inevitable. So either you accept a certain amount of deaths as a cost of freedom or you don't.

I accept it. Five homicides per 100,000 people? I'll take those odds.
I put out the vehicle thing in a smartazz way just to point out how ridiculous those knee jerk responses are. How wanting to super control the tools do little or nothing when the real issue is the people.

I fully agree. In a free society you are going to have more chances for bad things to happen. Still overall, as you pointed out, when looked at per the total population firearms related homicides are actually a very small percentage. I doubt total homicides or suicides would go down that much, or for very long, if firearms were completely outlawed. Well, except for those resulting from people who do refuse to comply. I'll accept the price of a free society.

Like the opening paragraph on the UK article said, London's murder rate overtook NYC. Despite all their laws and constant surveillance.

Side note: Just remember. Vehicles and driving are privileges and not guaranteed by the Constitution. Sure, there can be all kinds of debate about how necessary they have become and how we can't do without them. But still a privilege, not a right. Thing is we could do without them, but it would completely change the whole fabric and structure of society to be something probably unrecognizable. Still, despite AOC's braying. Not going to happen.
__________________
"I wish I was stupid enough to be optimistic." Unknown

R.I.P. Miss Andi. It was a fine, long run old pup and I miss ya. AIW
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-14-2020, 08:16 PM
Tenring1911 Tenring1911 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,149
Actually pocket carry is pretty fast, this gentleman gives a good example of what can be done with practice. 1.5 seconds is a long time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo
__________________
Many would still be alive if not for Gun Free Zones.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-14-2020, 09:18 PM
glider glider is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,937
Some of the most well known gunslingers, shootist of the old west weren't really that fast but they didn't hesitate and they didn't miss. The average person will hesitate a second before they pull the trigger, these fellows didn't. Getting a shot off in 1,5 seconds at the range is not the same thing as having someone in front of you. But we were talking about knives and as the joke says, don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-14-2020, 09:33 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,240
The murder rate in NYC is only 3.4 per 100,000. (Wiki stats) well below the national average of 5.0 , so yeah, those stats matter if you still think NY is a murder-fest. It ain't.

And their gun ownership, due to onerous (& unconstitutional, IMO) NYC laws, is also lower than the national average.

Is there a correlation? Probably.

And is there a link between the UK's very low homicide rate and their even MORE stringent gun laws? Probably, yes.

I'm pro 2A, but that doesn't blind me to what's going on.

Nor am I bringing a knife to a gunfight!
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-15-2020, 07:45 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,532
Statistics are very deceiving in my opinion. They lack demographic clarity. Comparing NYC vs London or USA vs UK in crime or murder statistics tells you nothing of the demographics of who/where the bulk of the incidents happen. This is very important to the discussion. When you have rampant crime in minority and/or inner-city locations, most of which have very strict gun laws, yet they are included in and contribute to the largest portion of the statistics, it paints a very broad picture, of a very pointed cause.
__________________
Ex-Military, 20+ years 3-Gun competitor, Colt certified Armorer, NRA Instructor, NSRT Officer-Retired, LGS Guru.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 01-15-2020, 11:34 AM
magazineman magazineman is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,240
M-Peltier ------------- Your point is true, but also not viable. It's not possible to amass an apples-to-apples comparison of all the countries on Earth without using generalizations.

Because, yes, there are infinite differences in cultures, demographics, incomes, education levels,, drug abuse levels, tribal tensions, median ages, etc etc between countries. Heck, within small towns too!

So because an alternative to general statistics does not, and cannot, exist the "stats have flaws" argument is lame. It creates a logical dead end.

To realistically examine the world as a whole you have to do exactly that. You must take a broad overview.

Country by Country homicide rates per 100,000 people (the accepted standard of measure) are readily found online.

Claiming this info is faulty is also admitting that it could be flawed in a way that supports OR destroys your own position & beliefs. It can go both ways.

So the most rational course is to accept stats from generally considered as reputable sources as basically accurate. Within a reasonable margin of error.

If you don't like what they say it's likely your problem, not theirs.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-15-2020, 12:18 PM
Tenagain Tenagain is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Free state of Missouri
Age: 64
Posts: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
How come the media hasn't called this a "Mass Stabbing?"

If he used a gun it would be a "Mass shooting?"
Oh. Don't worry. They'll "classify" it as a mas murder attempt and lump it in with their version of mass attacks with guns.
__________________
True democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.....Long live the republic!
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-15-2020, 01:12 PM
K0025xx K0025xx is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: n/e TN
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
Statistics are very deceiving in my opinion. They lack demographic clarity. Comparing NYC vs London or USA vs UK in crime or murder statistics tells you nothing of the demographics of who/where the bulk of the incidents happen. This is very important to the discussion. When you have rampant crime in minority and/or inner-city locations, most of which have very strict gun laws, yet they are included in and contribute to the largest portion of the statistics, it paints a very broad picture, of a very pointed cause.
Agree 100%.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:08 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,240
Guys, the homicide rate is the homicide rate. Whether or not all the murders in a country were done by Baptists, with forks, on Thursdays, in one condo complex, in disputes over chicken pot pie. Because those are the homicides.

It still adds up to the overall rate, per 100,000 people, for that country.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:19 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,240
And if that country JUST HAPPENED to have more forks per capitia than any nation on Earth, that would be a hell of a coincidence, eh?
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:34 PM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
M-Peltier ------------- Your point is true, but also not viable. It's not possible to amass an apples-to-apples comparison of all the countries on Earth without using generalizations.

Because, yes, there are infinite differences in cultures, demographics, incomes, education levels,, drug abuse levels, tribal tensions, median ages, etc etc between countries. Heck, within small towns too!

So because an alternative to general statistics does not, and cannot, exist the "stats have flaws" argument is lame. It creates a logical dead end.

To realistically examine the world as a whole you have to do exactly that. You must take a broad overview.

Country by Country homicide rates per 100,000 people (the accepted standard of measure) are readily found online.

Claiming this info is faulty is also admitting that it could be flawed in a way that supports OR destroys your own position & beliefs. It can go both ways.

So the most rational course is to accept stats from generally considered as reputable sources as basically accurate. Within a reasonable margin of error.

If you don't like what they say it's likely your problem, not theirs.

Yeah... No. well just have to agree to disagree on this.
__________________
Ex-Military, 20+ years 3-Gun competitor, Colt certified Armorer, NRA Instructor, NSRT Officer-Retired, LGS Guru.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 01-15-2020, 07:35 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,240
Disagree on what point? The number of homicides per 100,000 people is easily established.

And they are committed by murderers. Whether by a just a few murderers or many of them, blue ones, rich ones, or poor ones.

It's an overall, and generally reliable number.

So do you disagree that WE have criminals that kill at a ratio of 5 per 100,000?

Or are you disagreeing that the UK's rate is smaller? Because demographic details do not change these figures.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:53 PM
Amos Iron Wolf Amos Iron Wolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Del Rio, Texas
Age: 63
Posts: 8,125
So that's 50 homicides per 1 million. A quick Google search showed a US population of 327.2 million. so that makes for 16,385‬ homicides per in a population of 327.2 million people in the US. That is a very small number per total population.

Due to some potential homicides being stopped by the intended victim or a third party being armed and those not being reported it is difficult to get a good actual number on how many lives have been saved by the gun, used or just presented. If it were it would be a very interesting comparison to see how many per 100,000 or per the total US population have not been murdered due to the presence/use of a defending firearm vs the number of homicides. Not arguing anything, just that it would be an interesting comparison.
__________________
"I wish I was stupid enough to be optimistic." Unknown

R.I.P. Miss Andi. It was a fine, long run old pup and I miss ya. AIW
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 01-15-2020, 10:12 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 7,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn6518 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenring1911 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fn257 View Post
I believe that you should go to YouTube and search 21 foot rule and watch the videos.
Thank you but I really don't need to, I understand it fine, it is not as stated in the post.
I can draw my firearm and get reasonable accurate rounds off in under 1.5 seconds.
Is that a duty holster? Concealed? It's easy to shoot 100% at paper...paper isn't shooting back! 1.5 seconds is fast. Like cowboy fast shooting sports fast. Not saying you can't but the average person can't. And within 20 ft I can throw a knife pretty hard and accurate. Some departments have the 21 ft rule and training some don't!
Well for me it's fully concealed random start when fully relaxed into a 3x5 notecard as the first of the FAST drill in 1.4-1.6 seconds cold with HST+P.

If my target is the entire A-zone I can do it in .8-1.1, I have plenty video here showing it and plenty of sub 5 fast still videos too.
__________________
Carry gun:Wilson Carry Comp Custom .45S Pocket carry:on loan Other 1911s:WC Supergrade Accucomp .38, WC BW Opticomp, WC CQB Compact, WC CQB Professional, WC Super Sentinel, WC CQB Elite 9mm, WC EDC X9, WC X9S, Ed Brown SR, NHC Predator II Opticomp, NHC T3 Hardchrome, Kimber Ultra, ATI Tactical, RIA Tactical 10mm, Kimber Ultra Diamond 9mm, Detonics Combat Master MKVI, Colt Centennial .460 Roland
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 01-15-2020, 11:22 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,240
Amos Iron Wolf ------- Yes, that would be super interesting to know. But counting fatalities is easy.

And counting things that DID NOT happen is............... problematic.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:27 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved