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  #1  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:10 PM
flechero flechero is offline
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180 rule question

Thinking about trying some local matches and as I read through the rules, I see the 180 rule... it is explained as left/right and up/down. So how does that square with holsters at 3 or 4 o'clock and a 15-20 degree cant ?

I don't want to buy new holsters and really don't want to alter my carry position or stroke.

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 02-05-2020, 03:38 PM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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That's a great question. I didn't get disqualified, but I was cautioned by the RO at my first "steel challenge" match because I was drawing from a concealment holster that sat at my 3:30 and was slightly canted back. They let me continue, but after that match I eventually bought a new holster. It's legal for steel challenge and USPSA, but maybe not IDPA. I bought it off Amazon, and it's made by Black Scorpion. Was $45.
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  #3  
Old 02-05-2020, 04:28 PM
Reloader Reloader is offline
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It is recognized that the gun when holstered or drawn will cross the 180.

Look at USPSA rules 5.2.7.3, 10.5.5.1, and 10.5.6.
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  #4  
Old 02-05-2020, 06:51 PM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reloader View Post
It is recognized that the gun when holstered or drawn will cross the 180.

Look at USPSA rules 5.2.7.3, 10.5.5.1, and 10.5.6.
Well that's cool. Hopefully the ROs know the rules. I'll cite those rule numerals when the RO tells me to hit the bricks.
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  #5  
Old 02-05-2020, 09:56 PM
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RickB RickB is offline
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Some shooters, either ignorant of the rules or because they're afraid of endangering people in the gallery, will pivot to their left as they holster, which often results in the gun being pointed at the SO/RO who is positioned at the shooter's 4:00; don't be that guy.
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  #6  
Old 02-05-2020, 10:36 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Worst fault I see is the reload, the shooter turning the gun across his body "reading the instructions off the barrel." Aggravated by crowding a barricade.
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  #7  
Old 02-06-2020, 09:05 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Match rules (ie. USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge and etc.) for the event will refer you to the answers to your question or call the match director.

Each has very specific rules with pictures and measurements to be in compliance and safety.

Dedicated holsters are in the $30 range!

All the best,
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  #8  
Old 02-06-2020, 09:22 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Be careful as Brad mentions...

I did get ejected once some years ago from a USPSA match. I was wearing a mere range rig off the side of my hip and although my muzzle was say 90% pointed to the floor, there was maybe a 10% component towards the rear as I holstered, thus violating the 180 rule (even though I had just shown the RO I had a clear pistol). I thought it was a little picky, worthy of a warning but not being ejected, but as a shooter you don't get to make the call :-).
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  #9  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:55 AM
drail drail is offline
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..."don't be that guy..." Gosh darn right.
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  #10  
Old 02-06-2020, 12:09 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Warning!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Be careful as Brad mentions...

I did get ejected once some years ago from a USPSA match. I was wearing a mere range rig off the side of my hip and although my muzzle was say 90% pointed to the floor, there was maybe a 10% component towards the rear as I holstered, thus violating the 180 rule (even though I had just shown the RO I had a clear pistol). I thought it was a little picky, worthy of a warning but not being ejected, but as a shooter you don't get to make the call :-).
This should have been a warning. A discussion with the match director was warranted in this case.

Smiles,
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  #11  
Old 02-06-2020, 01:40 PM
pat_jones pat_jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Be careful as Brad mentions...

I did get ejected once some years ago from a USPSA match. I was wearing a mere range rig off the side of my hip and although my muzzle was say 90% pointed to the floor, there was maybe a 10% component towards the rear as I holstered, thus violating the 180 rule (even though I had just shown the RO I had a clear pistol). I thought it was a little picky, worthy of a warning but not being ejected, but as a shooter you don't get to make the call :-).
USPSA allows for FBI cant holsters as long as you don't point more than 3 feet behind you.

10.5 covers DQs for gun handling, see below.

"10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded firearm to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while drawing or re-holstering."
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  #12  
Old 02-07-2020, 08:36 AM
flechero flechero is offline
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Thanks for the info, I'm going to try and check out a match locally as a spectator first and will discuss with them.
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  #13  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:25 AM
scubadad scubadad is offline
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Ok guys cut me some slack on this because I'm just asking what maybe some dumb questions having never competed.

I have often thought about trying some local matches until I read all the rules and then hear complaints about this or that or I got thrown out for this and it was a bs call. I am all for safety and believe it should be the first rule.

So my question is. Is it still fun? I am looking into the fun factor I could care less about my score. Is there one these that is not as hard core?
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  #14  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:41 AM
lhawkins lhawkins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubadad View Post
Ok guys cut me some slack on this because I'm just asking what maybe some dumb questions having never competed.

I have often thought about trying some local matches until I read all the rules and then hear complaints about this or that or I got thrown out for this and it was a bs call. I am all for safety and believe it should be the first rule.

So my question is. Is it still fun? I am looking into the fun factor I could care less about my score. Is there one these that is not as hard core?
Absolutely still fun. We are pretty forgiving except for safety. If you go to a match and much of the behind the line discussion is the rule book, find other matches.

In fact, I shoot very few sanctioned matches due to the lunacy of the rules. Local Outlaw can be great or terrible depending on the club.

I RO many outlaw matches and I walk the new shooter through the stage, pointing out targets if they forget to see them during their run, I let them shoot from low ready if they are not comfortable drawing, give them pointers during the stage. That would never fly at a true IDPA match.

We also coach them after on how to improve their score.

Dropped gun, ND, or flagrant 180 rule is about the only thing would get you a DQ at our matches. You would get a warning once if you unholstered or loaded your gun before the command.

Safety and fun are our goals.
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  #15  
Old 02-07-2020, 11:48 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Quote:
So my question is. Is it still fun? I am looking into the fun factor I could care less about my score. Is there one these that is not as hard core?
The name of the game matters less than the local culture; there are hardnosed outlaw matches and easygoing affiliated matches.
Get off the keyboard and show up at the range.

I am not the one to talk with about "fun" and "care less about score" because I get enjoyment out of testing my (remaining at age 75) abilities against the course of fire and the other shooters. Of course these days, middle of the pack is a success and anything off the bottom is fairly good.
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Old 02-07-2020, 06:34 PM
markm markm is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubadad View Post

So my question is. Is it still fun? I am looking into the fun factor I could care less about my score. Is there one these that is not as hard core?
It's fun, they get all over the safety factors but they are easy. You should try it, I was nervous at first but the people are great and will go all out to help you, especially if you say new shooter. My club does special matches like for Halloween when they bend the rules like for mag limits and pistol braces (not safety) but otherwise it's sanctioned matches, but we have fun.
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  #17  
Old 02-08-2020, 07:20 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubadad View Post
Ok guys cut me some slack on this because I'm just asking what maybe some dumb questions having never competed.

I have often thought about trying some local matches until I read all the rules and then hear complaints about this or that or I got thrown out for this and it was a bs call. I am all for safety and believe it should be the first rule.

So my question is. Is it still fun? I am looking into the fun factor I could care less about my score. Is there one these that is not as hard core?
It is still fun regardless of all the rules. Theres actually two sets of rules in a way.

1) Safety. Most venues wether USPSA or Outlaw etc have a very similar set of safety rules. Many outlaw rules are modeled after USPSA safety rules. You understand them, your going to be GTG at almost any match.

2) Division/game. Depending on what game your shooting your equipment will dictate who you shoot against, usually by rules governing your equipment. These rules also will cover stage design, scoring and target selection.

Safety rules you want to understand right from the start, the game rules you will learn a little at a time. Never be afraid to attend a match for fear of screwing up. The RO's are generally very supportive of new shooters. We ALL were at one time. And most have been DQ'd themselves at least once. No shame in it, you learn from it.

What range near you has gun games?
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  #18  
Old 02-08-2020, 09:10 AM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flechero View Post
Thinking about trying some local matches and as I read through the rules, I see the 180 rule... it is explained as left/right and up/down. So how does that square with holsters at 3 or 4 o'clock and a 15-20 degree cant ?

I don't want to buy new holsters and really don't want to alter my carry position or stroke.

Thoughts?
As has been said, USPSA rules say the muzzle can't point more than 3 feet behind while in the holster. Not sure about IDPA rules but I'm sure it's similar.

Personally those type of holsters make me cringe, both as a competitor, RO and concealed carrier.
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Old 02-08-2020, 07:36 PM
flechero flechero is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
Personally those type of holsters make me cringe, both as a competitor, RO and concealed carrier.
What are "those type" holsters? And why do you cringe?
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  #20  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:14 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Ones with tons of cant
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  #21  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:33 PM
flechero flechero is offline
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15 degrees is the standard, if a holster has cant. Not sure that's really cringeworthy, even in a game.
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  #22  
Old 02-10-2020, 04:03 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Competition ranges are places where safety is keenly observed. Being super careful to not at any time muzzle yourself or fellow competitors whether your gun is known to be loaded or unloaded is the way to go.

It's not that hard to observe the rules and etiquette. Show up and learn from the experienced people and have fun. There will almost always be someone there who knows the ropes and is generous about helping new shooters.
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  #23  
Old 02-10-2020, 07:10 PM
DukeSoprano DukeSoprano is offline
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Practice opening doors with your weak hand and your gun in your strong hand WITHOUT sweeping your weak hand..............Sure does sound easy doesn't it?
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  #24  
Old 02-11-2020, 03:04 AM
Snoopy47 Snoopy47 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubadad View Post
Ok guys cut me some slack on this because I'm just asking what maybe some dumb questions having never competed.

I have often thought about trying some local matches until I read all the rules and then hear complaints about this or that or I got thrown out for this and it was a bs call. I am all for safety and believe it should be the first rule.

So my question is. Is it still fun? I am looking into the fun factor I could care less about my score. Is there one these that is not as hard core?
I recently had such an experience.

Club Draconian SOP's are really more a 50 rule than a 180 rule. Can't point gun higher than parallel to the ground, and the shooter is under cover with a table. So you can't point past the posts of the cover/table, nor point at the lane dividers because they are Swiss Cheese.

I loaded gun while pointed at the dirt trying to avoid one Draconian SOP(keeping it below parallel) only to get hit with another and was DQ'd because it was below the table, never mind everyone that draws sweeps the table regardless. Also, 1911's cannot disengage the safety until the gun is parallel, and has to re-engage at parallel before holstering. Never mind a 1911 is no more or less hot than a Striker pistol.

So I stopped using a 1911 when there just to avoid their drama.

This club is proud of the fact they are going to have an quasi outlaw IDPA match, but there will be no movement with loaded guns. That will be an interesting circus to watch (too bad I wont be there to see it). Unload, holster, move to next spot, draw, don't point at ground, must be parallel while loading..............holey hell...........

I'm lucky enough to have found two other venues to shoot at with a lot more flow during the course of fire. The only down side is they don't upload scores for classifications every month, but that's better than being timid with every movement just trying to avoid being sent home and having a slowed down course of fire anyway.

Always remember there is a pecking order at local ranges. If you aren't part of the community there you will just be some guy, and they grant you nothing, and seek out flaws. It's best to just find a group you can shoot with regularly and be a part of.

This isn't the case with larger major matches because most of the participants aren't local anyway. So the pecking order is diluted.
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  #25  
Old 02-11-2020, 10:08 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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As I said, it isn't the name of the game, it is the local culture.
One of my clubs had a complaint, threatening lawsuit, of a bullet over the berm hitting a house.
Did the club put in "Club Draconian ROE?" No, they rebuilt the range at considerable expense. We are now shooting into about a forty foot bluff.
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