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  #1  
Old 01-24-2020, 09:53 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Question about competing indoor ranges

Hey...this may seem like a silly question, but shooting indoor is different than outdoor.

Generally, leagues have a 180 degree safety rule. However, in any indoor range I have ever been too, you can not point a muzzle at the floor, at the ceiling and at a wall. It’s a basic safety concern and naturally, the owner of the building wants to protect their walls from damage and shooters form flying debris.

Some knucklehead is trying to tell me that this is a violation of the sanctioning body because the club must allow shooters to use the full 180 degrees.

Am I the knucklehead or is he? Seems to me the owner of the building makes the rules and if people don’t like it, shoot somewhere else.
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  #2  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:10 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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I shoot indoor USPSA in a Wednesday night league and a home grown indoor police league one Monday evening a month.
Guns get POINTED at floor and wall within the 180, but you are expected to go to great lengths not to shoot outside the bullet traps.

I shoot a home grown rimfire league one Tuesday evening a month. Range is shorter than NRA and the multi-bull target will give floor hits by a tall shooter.
I have seen a number of indoor GSSF targets indicating floor hits.
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  #3  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:04 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Stage designers will make it impossible to shoot at a target that is not safe. Indoors, same rules as anywhere else, never break 180 and only shoot at targets.
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  #4  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:28 PM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Ok..so where I shoot....we would never set up a target that would result in the round going through the target and hitting the wall. That would be a No No.
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  #5  
Old 01-24-2020, 03:37 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
We would never set up a target that would result in the round going through the target and hitting the wall. That would be a No No.
yes, our guns would never break the 180, but they may, during a reload or movement be aimed into the ceiling or wall (finger out of the trigger). Fault lines or walls allow you to only see the targets presented in a safe direction.
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  #6  
Old 01-24-2020, 03:44 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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USPSA clubs are not allowed to enact "local rules".
It's either a USPSA match following the rulebook, or it's not USPSA.

If you are talking about another type of match that doesn't apply, but he's right if he's referring to USPSA.
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  #7  
Old 01-24-2020, 09:35 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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You are partically correct !

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Hey...this may seem like a silly question, but shooting indoor is different than outdoor.

Generally, leagues have a 180 degree safety rule. However, in any indoor range I have ever been too, you can not point a muzzle at the floor, at the ceiling and at a wall. It’s a basic safety concern and naturally, the owner of the building wants to protect their walls from damage and shooters form flying debris.

Some knucklehead is trying to tell me that this is a violation of the sanctioning body because the club must allow shooters to use the full 180 degrees.

Am I the knucklehead or is he? Seems to me the owner of the building makes the rules and if people don’t like it, shoot somewhere else.
You are partially correct! The sanctioning body must accommodate the range operations rules because of their insurance.

Some ranges accommodate USPSA rules for those matches only but might have to provide separate insurance.

I was the Executive Director of Range Operations for years at our club's indoor range We run USPSA matches every month and weekly "out law" matches. The only time "steel" is allowed, irregular target placement and movement while shooting is under the direction of the Match Director.

Sanctioning body Safety/Range Officers are also required.

All matches at our indoor must first follow "Range Rules"! Since I also had input into the range rules I made sure there were no conflicts with USPSA, IDPA and NRA rules.

Any range seeking to run sanctioned events must work with that body to make accommodation for that match series.

I can remember prior to the early 90's when NRA didn't require "eyes or ears" but they could be required where matches were held.

All the best in 2020,
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Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!

Last edited by jjfitch; 01-25-2020 at 09:11 PM. Reason: syntax
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  #8  
Old 01-24-2020, 09:37 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Totally inaccurate.
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  #9  
Old 01-24-2020, 09:39 PM
pat_jones pat_jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
USPSA clubs are not allowed to enact "local rules".
It's either a USPSA match following the rulebook, or it's not USPSA.

If you are talking about another type of match that doesn't apply, but he's right if he's referring to USPSA.
From the USPSA rulebook:

3.3 Applicability of Rules

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

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  #10  
Old 01-24-2020, 10:18 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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2.3.1.1

Seems that firing into a side wall could be a Forbidden Action.
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  #11  
Old 01-25-2020, 12:02 AM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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That's not what he's talking about. He said pointing at the side wall is not allowed at those matches. There is no rule in USPSA they could possibly apply to make that illegal.
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  #12  
Old 01-25-2020, 05:41 AM
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RickB RickB is offline
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Yeah, I'm aware of a USPSA club that shut down because the range enacted a rule against allowing the muzzle to rise above the berm.
My local range has considered the same, on a few occasions, but the USPSA club has been able to prevent it, so far.
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  #13  
Old 01-25-2020, 08:10 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pat_jones View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
USPSA clubs are not allowed to enact "local rules".
It's either a USPSA match following the rulebook, or it's not USPSA.

If you are talking about another type of match that doesn't apply, but he's right if he's referring to USPSA.
From the USPSA rulebook:

3.3 Applicability of Rules

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

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There seems to be two forces at play. The rules of the range. And the rules of the league.

I am not sure when the sanctioning leagues talks about their “rules” that they are addressing safety issues. For example, if USPSA states 180 degrees, but a range allows 240 degrees if a shooter were to break the 180 that would be a USPSA violation. But if USPSA states 180 but the range says 135 the shooter is still not breaking the 180 so thus I don’t understand why the USPSA would have a problem. I use 135 and 240 just to make a point:

That’s why I don’t think a range requiring more strict muzzle discipline because it’s an indoor range would be in violation of anything the league requires. 180 degrees is a violation...period. But if a range says you MUST keep muzzle down range, that doesn’t give a shooter any sort of advantage. In fact, it’s less of an advantage. Again....they shouldn’t care.

In full disclosure, I run a league. But is OUR league and we make up our own rules. We have a lot of fun. But many of us also shoot USPSA at the same location too.
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  #14  
Old 01-25-2020, 09:29 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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The place I shoot indoor USPSA just doesn't have it come up. No tribal rules. Target layout and peer pressure to keep the management happy.
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  #15  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:18 PM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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The indoor club I run we allow people the full 180 when moving. However we ask them if the can see a target that has wall, ceiling or floor behind it to not shoot at it and point it out to match staff so we can fix it before the match starts.

Target and wall/prop placement is critical to keep the range owner happy.

After 14 years of me running matches there, he still lets us play there one night a month.
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  #16  
Old 01-25-2020, 07:23 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
There seems to be two forces at play. The rules of the range. And the rules of the league.

I am not sure when the sanctioning leagues talks about their “rules” that they are addressing safety issues. For example, if USPSA states 180 degrees, but a range allows 240 degrees if a shooter were to break the 180 that would be a USPSA violation. But if USPSA states 180 but the range says 135 the shooter is still not breaking the 180 so thus I don’t understand why the USPSA would have a problem. I use 135 and 240 just to make a point:

That’s why I don’t think a range requiring more strict muzzle discipline because it’s an indoor range would be in violation of anything the league requires. 180 degrees is a violation...period. But if a range says you MUST keep muzzle down range, that doesn’t give a shooter any sort of advantage. In fact, it’s less of an advantage. Again....they shouldn’t care.

In full disclosure, I run a league. But is OUR league and we make up our own rules. We have a lot of fun. But many of us also shoot USPSA at the same location too.
The answer to your question was posted above. It's in the rulebook.

The real answer to your question is because if I drive to a match, be it 10 minutes or 1800 miles from my house, I want the rules to be the same. That is the benefit of the USPSA brand.


If a range wants to have rules like that, that's fine, they just can't call the matches USPSA.
Then when I go on their website or click the registration link, it says "Bob's Tuesday night Tactical Shoot", and I close the page and go somewhere else.
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  #17  
Old 01-25-2020, 08:23 PM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
There seems to be two forces at play. The rules of the range. And the rules of the league.

I am not sure when the sanctioning leagues talks about their “rules” that they are addressing safety issues. For example, if USPSA states 180 degrees, but a range allows 240 degrees if a shooter were to break the 180 that would be a USPSA violation. But if USPSA states 180 but the range says 135 the shooter is still not breaking the 180 so thus I don’t understand why the USPSA would have a problem. I use 135 and 240 just to make a point:

That’s why I don’t think a range requiring more strict muzzle discipline because it’s an indoor range would be in violation of anything the league requires. 180 degrees is a violation...period. But if a range says you MUST keep muzzle down range, that doesn’t give a shooter any sort of advantage. In fact, it’s less of an advantage. Again....they shouldn’t care.

In full disclosure, I run a league. But is OUR league and we make up our own rules. We have a lot of fun. But many of us also shoot USPSA at the same location too.
The answer to your question was posted above. It's in the rulebook.

The real answer to your question is because if I drive to a match, be it 10 minutes or 1800 miles from my house, I want the rules to be the same. That is the benefit of the USPSA brand.


If a range wants to have rules like that, that's fine, they just can't call the matches USPSA.
Then when I go on their website or click the registration link, it says "Bob's Tuesday night Tactical Shoot", and I close the page and go somewhere else.
Well I can assure you....it’s a sanctioned league. But I’ll double check current range rules this weekend.

Last edited by WaterDR; 01-25-2020 at 08:25 PM.
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  #18  
Old 01-26-2020, 08:33 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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I laugh, the indoor ranges that don’t allow USPSA are pretty ignorant. Walk on their ranges and they have bullet holes everywhere. Very scary. My bet is USPSA shooters haven’t done any of those.
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  #19  
Old 01-26-2020, 02:20 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Granted USPSA has been around for a long time and has a lot of experienced shooters, some are from a different planet! Rarely will a round find a floor, ceiling or break the "180"!

Entry level USPSA shooters not so much!
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Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!
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  #20  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:50 AM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Well I can assure you....it’s a sanctioned league. But I’ll double check current range rules this weekend.
So there's your answer. Your knucklehead friend is right.
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