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  #26  
Old 07-05-2019, 09:47 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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The ballistic data and diameters and radii and importance thereof can be argued ad nauseum. This site is a prime example. Synthesis (not anecdotes) or real world outcomes has a bit more practical weight
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3
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  #27  
Old 07-05-2019, 10:04 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Not at all Sir, it is accepted ballistic science when it comes to wound channel's and what causes them in pistol rounds with energy levels on the order which both 9 and 45 yield. People can choose to ignore the accepted practices but that is usually because they already have their mind made up (possibly for good reason's (I can't shoot a certain round well), possibly not (Guru XYZ said I should use a certain caliber)).

Real world outcomes are very good, but as shown by your post there is little agreement in them. That said, btw, there are likely more cops pro-45 based on field observation's from what I've observed here in the last 8 years. So either way, the evidence leads in one direction for me (both the science and the limited field "data"). To each his own.
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  #28  
Old 07-05-2019, 10:27 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
The ballistic data and diameters and radii and importance thereof can be argued ad nauseum. This site is a prime example. Synthesis (not anecdotes) or real world outcomes has a bit more practical weight
Well then a lot of people I've talked to who are/were cops or mil or medical all prefer the .45 since they all claim it works better. They say too many walk away from 9mm
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  #29  
Old 07-05-2019, 10:28 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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Little agreement only happens when people argue on the level of anecdotes, which is what individual observations described in several posts here are. This stuff gets analyzed in a systematic and as scientific manner as possible by people who get paid to do that. There is very little disagreement between them. Those results are available to qualified organizations.

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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Well then a lot of people I've talked to who are/were cops or mil or medical all prefer the .45 since they all claim it works better. They say too many walk away from 9mm
It is hard to say "too many walk away from 45" when barely any agency or unit issues it these days. It is practically gone from the duty use.

As another anecdote, three months ago I was involved in care of a perp shot by a local police. 16 hits. Only one above the diaphragm. Naturally, he walked away, on crutches of course and with a cast on one arm. That's how "walking away" stuff gets generated.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3

Last edited by YVK; 07-05-2019 at 10:35 AM.
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  #30  
Old 07-05-2019, 10:39 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Little agreement only happens when people argue on the level of anecdotes, which is what individual observations described in several posts here are. This stuff gets analyzed in a systematic and as scientific manner as possible by people who get paid to do that. There is very little disagreement between them. Those results are available to qualified organizations.

It is hard to say "too many walk away from 45" when barely any agency or unit issues it these days. It is practically gone from the duty use.

As another anecdote, three months ago I was involved in care of a perp shot by a local police. 16 hits. Only one above the diaphragm. Naturally, he walked away, on crutches of course and with a cast on one arm. That's how "walking away" stuff gets generated.
Sorry, can't depend on hearsay, have to produce the data (or a summary) and references.
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  #31  
Old 07-05-2019, 10:40 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Little agreement only happens when people argue on the level of anecdotes, which is what individual observations described in several posts here are. This stuff gets analyzed in a systematic and as scientific manner as possible by people who get paid to do that. There is very little disagreement between them. Those results are available to qualified organizations.



It is hard to say "too many walk away from 45" when barely any agency or unit issues it these days. It is practically gone from the duty use.

As another anecdote, three months ago I was involved in care of a perp shot by a local police. 16 hits. Only one above the diaphragm. Naturally, he walked away, on crutches of course and with a cast on one arm. That's how "walking away" stuff gets generated.
And those results say that more wound channel is more effective with pistol energy levels. I don't care since I am fast enough with .45 that I can use whatever I want and be better than 99% of the shooting public regardless. I choose 90% more wound channel at a 20% speed hit gun to gun same holster setup.
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  #32  
Old 07-05-2019, 11:24 AM
regalsc regalsc is offline
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Striker, since you’re better than 99% of the shooting public the 1% that’s better than you could be the perpetrator you’re facing. Uh O!
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  #33  
Old 07-05-2019, 11:56 AM
Dump1567 Dump1567 is offline
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A reasonable source for online orders of HST , Critical Duty or Speer Gold Dot is Bone Frog Gun Club. You don’t have to be a member to order, but if you pay a membership fee, your ammo will be cheaper. My other online source is Target Sports USA. Neither charges me tax and 1,000 round cases have free shipping from Both companies
Target Sports is where I've been ordering from for years. Even bought the membership for free shipping. Really saves when you only order 1 box of ammo at a time. But their HST prices just went up.

I just found Bone Frog & got the free LEO (retired) membership. That's were I found the .45 HST for $25.
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  #34  
Old 07-05-2019, 12:40 PM
motorsporting motorsporting is offline
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Although getting a little older now, I almost always refer to these two sites for ammunition and caliber selection. Both Ellifritz and Dr. Roberts are more than qualified to render their opinions. YMMV.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Se...ense_Ammo_FAQ/
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  #35  
Old 07-05-2019, 02:48 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Sorry, can't depend on hearsay, have to produce the data (or a summary) and references.
Defensive Systems Unit, Ballistic Research Facility, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA is the reference. You need to request on an acceptable letterhead, or have another source. Mine is an NDIA award recipient, so I am totally cool with his hearsay over 2 mm of additional cavity over 9 mm cavity in each direction.

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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
And those results say that more wound channel is more effective with pistol energy levels. I don't care since I am fast enough with .45 that I can use whatever I want and be better than 99% of the shooting public regardless.
99% of shooting public are not who you're looking to deal with.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3
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  #36  
Old 07-05-2019, 03:14 PM
Gary1911A1 Gary1911A1 is offline
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I'm retired from Corrections and before that I worked in Probation and Parole. Saw several inmates and parolees who had been shot or still had 9MM slugs in them. One inmate had a 9MM still in his head he complained gave him headaches. Might of been drug seeking, but I never saw one who had been shot with a .357Mag, .40S&W or .45ACP. I think that says something.
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  #37  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:22 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Defensive Systems Unit, Ballistic Research Facility, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA is the reference. You need to request on an acceptable letterhead, or have another source. Mine is an NDIA award recipient, so I am totally cool with his hearsay over 2 mm of additional cavity over 9 mm cavity in each direction.

.
I have no idea what you are trying to say with the above. Is your 9mm expanding to 11mm?
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  #38  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:26 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by Gary1911A1 View Post
I'm retired from Corrections and before that I worked in Probation and Parole. Saw several inmates and parolees who had been shot or still had 9MM slugs in them. One inmate had a 9MM still in his head he complained gave him headaches. Might of been drug seeking, but I never saw one who had been shot with a .357Mag, .40S&W or .45ACP. I think that says something.
Yes, seem's to be the trend I've observed over the years from reports of various leo's also. Not to say their aren't exception's, but good anecdotal data nevertheless. And when paired with the physics of the ballistic facts, provides a good basis for decision making.
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  #39  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:37 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Something weird happened today, I was repairing my dads Shadow 2 and decided to run it from it's game rig. Only managed a 4.8-5.2 FAST over 4 warm attempts somehow, either I don't know how to run it or a comp really changes everything.

Very strange that the superior holster setup and much much weaker ammo and a heavier gun did that. Guess that means I just am more used to my carry gun? I this instance there would be absolutely no advantage to 9mm
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  #40  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:54 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Something weird happened today, I was repairing my dads Shadow 2 and decided to run it from it's game rig. Only managed a 4.8-5.2 FAST over 4 warm attempts somehow, either I don't know how to run it or a comp really changes everything.

Very strange that the superior holster setup and much much weaker ammo and a heavier gun did that. Guess that means I just am more used to my carry gun? I this instance there would be absolutely no advantage to 9mm
It might just be that you draw and reload your beloved WCCC faster, makes up for the other shots that act more like a split-time contest. There really are only 3 of them in this drill where you can go all out "spliting" sort of speak anyway. The other 3 involved a draw to first shot, a second shot to the head so you really cant go all out if you want precision on the 3X5, and a reload before the the 3rd shot. Shot's 4, 5, and 6 are a split machine contest...You can try a Bill drill if you have nothing better to do with 5 shots being a split contest or create your own 8 round Bill drill and 7 round's will be a split contest...In the real world all that BS about shooting splits faster with 9mm is mostly BS. People don't usually line up like the old west cowboy's and do mag-dump's into each other. Not to say that it can't happen...but...And even if it does happen: It is funny that the 9mm proponent's speak about how fast they can shoot their gun vs 45, which all other things = is good. But all other things are not equal. They pick and choose the fact's. Shooting say 20% faster splits is good, but not so good when one factor's in that they are giving up 2X the amount of bullet face surface area vs 45. They never include the latter in their analysis. HST vs HST perfect example. 45 HST is like 2 9mm HST in regards to creating tissue damage. Either will kill you just as dead if shot in the heart. But that isn't likely to happen (too) often in a gun fight. If you hit another vital organ (a more likely outcome than hitting the heart or any one specific part of the torso) having a 2X fatter round will in all likelihood facilitate bleed-out quicker. And that is what you want.
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Last edited by combat auto; 07-05-2019 at 05:15 PM.
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  #41  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:10 PM
BRoger BRoger is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Little agreement only happens when people argue on the level of anecdotes, which is what individual observations described in several posts here are. This stuff gets analyzed in a systematic and as scientific manner as possible by people who get paid to do that. There is very little disagreement between them. Those results are available to qualified organizations.



It is hard to say "too many walk away from 45" when barely any agency or unit issues it these days. It is practically gone from the duty use.

As another anecdote, three months ago I was involved in care of a perp shot by a local police. 16 hits. Only one above the diaphragm. Naturally, he walked away, on crutches of course and with a cast on one arm. That's how "walking away" stuff gets generated.
Exactly. Where you hit (and how many times), is the most important factor in terms of whether they'll be walking away. Without apples to apples data (i.e. data on where victims were shot, not just how many times, rounds/time to incapacitation when similar hits observed, etc...) A better use of one's time is finding out what they shoot best with (and what functions reliably in their firearm.) Whatever caliber you pick, use good quality projectiles, and practice.
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  #42  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:18 PM
BRoger BRoger is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
I have no idea what you are trying to say with the above. Is your 9mm expanding to 11mm?
He's comparing 9 vs .45. Both expand to well over 11mm. 147gr HST typically expands to ~17.9mm to 19.05mm. 230gr HST typically expands from ~21.6mm to 22.8mm.
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  #43  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:35 PM
BRoger BRoger is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
It might just be that you draw and reload your beloved WCCC faster, makes up for the other shots that act more like a split-time contest. There really are only 3 of them in this drill where you can go all out "spliting" sort of speak anyway. The other 3 involved a draw to first shot, a second shot to the head so you really cant go all out if you want precision on the 3X5, and a reload before the the 3rd shot. Shot's 4, 5, and 6 are a split machine contest...You can try a Bill drill if you have nothing better to do with 5 shots being a split contest or create your own 8 round Bill drill and 7 round's will be a split contest...In the real world all that BS about shooting splits faster with 9mm is mostly BS. People don't usually line up like the old west cowboy's and do mag-dump's into each other. Not to say that it can't happen...but...And even if it does happen: It is funny that the 9mm proponent's speak about how fast they can shoot their gun vs 45, which all other things = is good. But all other things are not equal. They pick and choose the fact's. Shooting say 20% faster splits is good, but not so good when one factor's in that they are giving up 2X the amount of bullet face surface area vs 45. They never include the latter in their analysis. HST vs HST perfect example. 45 HST is like 2 9mm HST in regards to creating tissue damage. Either will kill you just as dead if shot in the heart. But that isn't likely to happen (too) often in a gun fight. If you hit another vital organ (a more likely outcome than hitting the heart or any one specific part of the torso) having a 2X fatter round will in all likelihood facilitate bleed-out quicker. And that is what you want.
The difference is nowhere near 200%. It's between 60% to 70%. It's certainly true that if all else is equal (same locations hit, same number of shots fired), the larger holes should cause more blood loss. Of course if we're comparing a single stack pistol vs a double stack, that changes the number of holes. 8/9 (or 11 if using a 10rd mag) vs 18-22. Then we have to factor in how good the hits are, as firing speeds up. All of these factors have to be accounted for, which is why YMMV.
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  #44  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:41 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by BRoger View Post
He's comparing 9 vs .45. Both expand to well over 11mm. 147gr HST typically expands to ~17.9mm to 19.05mm. 230gr HST typically expands from ~21.6mm to 22.8mm.
5 shot average from Lucky Gunner is .61" out of a 3.5" gun for the baby HST. They also used a 3.5ish" gun for the 45 and it expanded to .85". They go out of their way to have a "controlled" test as best they can. With a longer barrel both rounds will expand some more, I've seen 45 HST videos showing numbers as high as .99"...But I like to use apples:apples. Lucky Gunner is a great sight for an apples to apples comparison.
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  #45  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:48 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by BRoger View Post
The difference is nowhere near 200%. It's between 60% to 70%. It's certainly true that if all else is equal (same locations hit, same number of shots fired), the larger holes should cause more blood loss. Of course if we're comparing a single stack pistol vs a double stack, that changes the number of holes. 8/9 (or 11 if using a 10rd mag) vs 18-22. Then we have to factor in how good the hits are, as firing speeds up. All of these factors have to be accounted for, which is why YMMV.
Read my post above, use apples to apples from lucky gunner. Stick the diameters into an area of a circle calculator and you will come up with the two #'s. It is 2X difference indeed (1.93 to be exact).
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Last edited by combat auto; 07-05-2019 at 06:28 PM.
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  #46  
Old 07-05-2019, 06:26 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
It might just be that you draw and reload your beloved WCCC faster, makes up for the other shots that act more like a split-time contest. There really are only 3 of them in this drill where you can go all out "spliting" sort of speak anyway. The other 3 involved a draw to first shot, a second shot to the head so you really cant go all out if you want precision on the 3X5, and a reload before the the 3rd shot. Shot's 4, 5, and 6 are a split machine contest...You can try a Bill drill if you have nothing better to do with 5 shots being a split contest or create your own 8 round Bill drill and 7 round's will be a split contest...In the real world all that BS about shooting splits faster with 9mm is mostly BS. People don't usually line up like the old west cowboy's and do mag-dump's into each other. Not to say that it can't happen...but...And even if it does happen: It is funny that the 9mm proponent's speak about how fast they can shoot their gun vs 45, which all other things = is good. But all other things are not equal. They pick and choose the fact's. Shooting say 20% faster splits is good, but not so good when one factor's in that they are giving up 2X the amount of bullet face surface area vs 45. They never include the latter in their analysis. HST vs HST perfect example. 45 HST is like 2 9mm HST in regards to creating tissue damage. Either will kill you just as dead if shot in the heart. But that isn't likely to happen (too) often in a gun fight. If you hit another vital organ (a more likely outcome than hitting the heart or any one specific part of the torso) having a 2X fatter round will in all likelihood facilitate bleed-out quicker. And that is what you want.
I don't know man, if I'm drawing that slow out of a race holster I'm doing something wrong or am just so used to an appendix draw it makes up for it relative to my 2 o'clock draw. Splits were actually near the same according to the frame counting, no edge at all to the 9mm in this "apples to apples". Guess I'm just used to a centerline draw with a 1911 for the first shot.

EDIT: My girl just got done with the frame analysis, 4.27/4.58/5.02/4.48 so I stand corrected slightly. The shadow did better than I thought from just looking at the video at the range but it still fell short of what I thought it would do. Considering the holster/concealment disadvantage of the 1911 and huge reload disadvantage I thought the CZ would pull a flat 4 or high 3. If I move my shirt behind my 1911 and am warm it will tie the CZ. Plus the Shadow was using 115g S&B vs HST 230+P loads....

Anyhow this brings me back to my mantra that it takes a gun setup for .45 for it to have high speed. 9mm can get away with it in nearly anything.

Last edited by Striker2237; 07-05-2019 at 06:32 PM.
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  #47  
Old 07-05-2019, 06:30 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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I don't know man, if I'm drawing that slow out of a race holster I'm doing something wrong or am just so used to an appendix draw it makes up for it relative to my 2 o'clock draw. Splits were actually the same according to the frame counting, no edge at all to the 9mm in this "apples to apples". Guess I'm just used to a centerline draw with a 1911 for the first shot.
That must be it then.
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  #48  
Old 07-05-2019, 06:30 PM
BRoger BRoger is offline
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In the short barrel tests I've checked out, the 147gr HST had an average of ~.61 and a max of ~.73. The 230gr had an average of .805 and a max of .85. If we compare max diameter of both, the 230gr has a 1.35 advantage. If we compare average diameter, the 230gr has a 1.74 advantage. Of course that only tells part of the story. The 147gr typically has a penetration advantage, so while the wound channel may be smaller in diameter, it's typically deeper. That affects the total volume of the wound channel, and needs to be taken into account. My second point comparing single stack vs double stack (18 to 22 .61-.73" holes bleed faster than 8 to 11 .80-.85 holes. That's why it's not quite as simple as bigger=better. This doesn't even take into account the nature of the gunfight (How many targets, number of reloads if applicable, etc...) There are an endless number of scenarios where X looks better than Y, or Y looks better than X. Hence.....carry what you shoot best, and practice a lot.
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  #49  
Old 07-05-2019, 06:36 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by BRoger View Post
In the short barrel tests I've checked out, the 147gr HST had an average of ~.61 and a max of ~.73. The 230gr had an average of .805 and a max of .85. If we compare max diameter of both, the 230gr has a 1.35 advantage. If we compare average diameter, the 230gr has a 1.74 advantage. Of course that only tells part of the story. The 147gr typically has a penetration advantage, so while the wound channel may be smaller in diameter, it's typically deeper. That affects the total volume of the wound channel, and needs to be taken into account. My second point comparing single stack vs double stack (18 to 22 .61-.73" holes bleed faster than 8 to 11 .80-.85 holes. That's why it's not quite as simple as bigger=better. This doesn't even take into account the nature of the gunfight (How many targets, number of reloads if applicable, etc...) There are an endless number of scenarios where X looks better than Y, or Y looks better than X. Hence.....carry what you shoot best, and practice a lot.
Uh did you see my results above? The .45 would have done more damage more quickly and btw the grouping was better with the 1911. I actually threw one shot way high (hit the head zone) with the CZ on the 4.27 run during the 4 body shots so it's best time doesn't actually count as a pass.

Sure a 9mm gun has more total damage on board if it's a double stack......but for me double stack anything prints so for 24/7 carry I use single stack and 9 9mm vs 8 .45s is no contest. Also keep in mind most don't carry micro .45 guns, most carry SIG365 size guns so I am willing to bet the .45s that most here actually carry will run circles around those size 9mms. Plus the larger guns gain decently in .45 as far as expansion and pen, the 147 is sweetspoted in short barrel 9mm guns. In larger ones it tends to under pen a little vs 124s (my preferred type for 4 inch plus guns)
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  #50  
Old 07-05-2019, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRoger View Post
In the short barrel tests I've checked out, the 147gr HST had an average of ~.61 and a max of ~.73. The 230gr had an average of .805 and a max of .85. If we compare max diameter of both, the 230gr has a 1.35 advantage. If we compare average diameter, the 230gr has a 1.74 advantage. Of course that only tells part of the story. The 147gr typically has a penetration advantage, so while the wound channel may be smaller in diameter, it's typically deeper. That affects the total volume of the wound channel, and needs to be taken into account. My second point comparing single stack vs double stack (18 to 22 .61-.73" holes bleed faster than 8 to 11 .80-.85 holes. That's why it's not quite as simple as bigger=better. This doesn't even take into account the nature of the gunfight (How many targets, number of reloads if applicable, etc...) There are an endless number of scenarios where X looks better than Y, or Y looks better than X. Hence.....carry what you shoot best, and practice a lot.
A bullet face is not a 1 dimensional object and hence a diameter isn't the best way to represent the impact, it is a 2 dimensional object with an area (best represented by a circle)....You are doing a faulty calculation using diameter to compare the 2. You have to convert it to an area as I mentioned above. In the area formula, the radius (1/2 of the diameter) is squared. That is why a small difference in diameter "amplifies" into a larger % difference in area...HST-45 is the beast.

This is just basic geometry, many people make the mistake you are making by just looking at the diameter when making comparison's, I even did way back - at first :-).

Have fun with the #'s, shoot what you want of course, it is all good.
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Last edited by combat auto; 07-05-2019 at 06:51 PM.
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