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  #51  
Old 08-29-2018, 08:44 AM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
7.62Kolectr:

" Keep in mind that most full metal jacket bullets still have an open base. And when fired that open base gets blasted, lead gets melted and turns into the vapor/smoke that you inhale."

I'm confused... if the lead at the south end of a northbound bullet "gets blasted and melts" please explain why the plastic shot gun wad doesn't get blasted and melt?

Thanks,
Maybe less pressure in chamber and bore at time of firing?
Airborne lead from shooting indoors is a well known problem.
Manufacturers have come up with clean burning powders to cut down on smoke and TMJs to cut down on airborne lead.
The wad gets 'toasted' a bit. And I'm not saying that the base of the bullet liquifies. I am saying that some of the lead at the base of the bullet gets blasted off and turns into airborne particles you can wind up breathing. Shooting a few hundred rounds can multiply the amount you get exposed to.
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  #52  
Old 08-29-2018, 11:57 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Lead Styphnate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7.62Kolectr View Post
Maybe less pressure in chamber and bore at time of firing?
Airborne lead from shooting indoors is a well known problem.
Manufacturers have come up with clean burning powders to cut down on smoke and TMJs to cut down on airborne lead.
The wad gets 'toasted' a bit. And I'm not saying that the base of the bullet liquifies. I am saying that some of the lead at the base of the bullet gets blasted off and turns into airborne particles you can wind up breathing. Shooting a few hundred rounds can multiply the amount you get exposed to.
The airborne lead particulate is from the primer compound lead styphnate.

And the primary reason for high airborne lead particulate comes from poor ventilation practices.

Pistols for the most part use shotgun powders. Also shotgun pressures and velocities are similar to pistol. The "wad" does spend more time inside the barrel and is exposed to this heat much longer.

Don't drink the Cool aide, do your own research. Google: "Anchorage JRROTC shooting team high lead levels"! This and other shooting programs jeopardize themselves because they are not following recommended/accepted lead mitigation and ventilation practices. Lead contamination is manageable but is easily ignored.

I stick to my hypothesis if shotgun wads are not melted by the "intense" heat then how is the lead which melts above 700 degrees is melted?

Yes, there is wad residue left in shotgun barrels but it is from the friction of the wad and unburned powder abrading the wad as it moves down the bore.

Some ranges even collect fired wads that can be reused in reloading shot shells! Why, because the wads are undamaged except for the abrasion around the base and the sides of the petals!

Bueler, Bueler, Bueler!
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Last edited by jjfitch; 08-29-2018 at 12:14 PM.
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  #53  
Old 08-29-2018, 01:57 PM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
The airborne lead particulate is from the primer compound lead styphnate.
Yes and no.

Lead styphnate does not release metallic lead in burning.
It produces es a witches brew of soluble lead compounds that are easily absorbed in the lungs.

There is also some amount of lead vaporized from the base of a bullet by hot powder gasses.
Typical FMJ construction leaves lead exposed at the base.
Just where it will be exposed to multiple thousandths of degrees of powder gases (though very briefly).
Thus the TMJ designation.

Finely divided lead is also a source if ingested.
A larger piece is NOT a source of anything much.

The huge surface area of the powdered lead is what makes it a danger.
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  #54  
Old 08-29-2018, 04:56 PM
okierider okierider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Had a routine physical and found lead to be elevated. Supposed to be less than 5 ideally. Mine is 10. So, it’s conskdered to be on the high end of the low end if that makes sense.

I guess I need to use gloves now when i clean and wash hands with lead removal soap when I shoot.

Anyone else with opinions on this?
Lead needs no special soap!! Water alone works with lead, but when you add gun oil and bullet lube you need soap to break that down and any soap will do that!!!
Baby wipes will work as well as D wipes!!

Last edited by okierider; 08-29-2018 at 05:09 PM.
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  #55  
Old 08-29-2018, 05:49 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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I shoot outdoors for the last 1-2 yrs now. I also started using shooting gloves most of the time, and obviously wash my hands afterwards. It's pretty obvious at an indoor range especially when they're busy if the ventilation is inadequate. I have to say, if I need a respirator to shoot, I'll find somewhere else to shoot, but that's me.
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  #56  
Old 08-29-2018, 05:54 PM
Kilrb Kilrb is offline
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I am having mine tested now due to some changes in yearly results and shooting inside is something I was not doing last year. Shooting less inside and will not renew membership but will join outside gun club. I bought shooting gloves and carry D lead wipes in range bag also now.
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  #57  
Old 08-29-2018, 07:22 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Brickeye:

"There is also some amount of lead vaporized from the base of a bullet by hot powder gasses.
Typical FMJ construction leaves lead exposed at the base.
Just where it will be exposed to multiple thousandths of degrees of powder gases (though very briefly).
Thus the TMJ designation."

Please explain: I stick to my hypothesis if shotgun wads are not melted by the "intense" heat then how is the lead which melts above 700 degrees is melted?
Pistols for the most part use shotgun powders. Also shotgun pressures and velocities are similar to pistol. The "wad" does spend more time inside the barrel and is exposed to this heat much longer.

I'm listening.......
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  #58  
Old 08-29-2018, 07:34 PM
markm markm is online now
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I just had my blood tested for the first time, 3.2 was my score. I don't shoot indoors but shoot lots, reload lots and cast. I just wash my hands with regular soap after I've been handling and don't breathe the dust from tumbling media.
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  #59  
Old 08-29-2018, 07:45 PM
robert1804 robert1804 is offline
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We're overlooking something about bullets with exposed lead bases. Sure, lead melts at about 620 F, but those combustion gasses are about 3300 F at pressures of, say, 30,000 down to a few thousand psi, depending on the cartridge and how far down the barrel the bullet is. This is only a little cooler than the surface of the sun and at vastly higher pressure. All that's bound to vaporize a little lead.
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  #60  
Old 08-29-2018, 08:00 PM
jlag19 jlag19 is offline
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Reading through this thread has actually caused me to not worry so much about shooting, reloading and casting as it relates to lead levels. If one follows basic precautions, he will be fine (and stay out of indoor ranges! ).


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  #61  
Old 08-29-2018, 09:33 PM
Martensite Martensite is offline
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Stop eating paint chips...
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  #62  
Old 08-29-2018, 10:12 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
The airborne lead particulate is from the primer compound lead styphnate.

And the primary reason for high airborne lead particulate comes from poor ventilation practices.

Pistols for the most part use shotgun powders. Also shotgun pressures and velocities are similar to pistol. The "wad" does spend more time inside the barrel and is exposed to this heat much longer.

Don't drink the Cool aide, do your own research. Google: "Anchorage JRROTC shooting team high lead levels"! This and other shooting programs jeopardize themselves because they are not following recommended/accepted lead mitigation and ventilation practices. Lead contamination is manageable but is easily ignored.

I stick to my hypothesis if shotgun wads are not melted by the "intense" heat then how is the lead which melts above 700 degrees is melted?

Yes, there is wad residue left in shotgun barrels but it is from the friction of the wad and unburned powder abrading the wad as it moves down the bore.

Some ranges even collect fired wads that can be reused in reloading shot shells! Why, because the wads are undamaged except for the abrasion around the base and the sides of the petals!

Bueler, Bueler, Bueler!
I'm not trying to imply that the reason for my lead levels skyrocketing was solely based on walking the line inhaling lead particles from blasted bullet bases. As an RSO I also had to sweep the floor in front of the firing lines which resulted daily in a pile of unburnt powder and all kinds of other stuff. I also had to go back and empty the dump buckets from the snail drum bullet traps where the bullets would be caught, spun around, disintegrate and drop into the buckets. Then I'd carry those over the the main drum and dump that into it. And this was done twenty something years ago when indoor ranges here were fairly new, poorly ventilated and we never thought about lead or wearing masks/respirators to filter the bad stuff out.
It was a number of things that contributed to high lead levels for me.
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  #63  
Old 08-30-2018, 08:07 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7.62Kolectr View Post
Maybe less pressure in chamber and bore at time of firing?
Airborne lead from shooting indoors is a well known problem.
Manufacturers have come up with clean burning powders to cut down on smoke and TMJs to cut down on airborne lead.
The wad gets 'toasted' a bit. And I'm not saying that the base of the bullet liquifies. I am saying that some of the lead at the base of the bullet gets blasted off and turns into airborne particles you can wind up breathing. Shooting a few hundred rounds can multiply the amount you get exposed to.
Agree. Open base lead bullets do melt a little as do the bases of shotgun wads. I have personally seen both. The shotgun wad is not a big deal, it doesn't produce any ill effects and is insignificant as its thick enough to not show much sign of degradation. The open base fmj can cause some serious leading issues in the comp of an Open pistol. This was the whole idea of manufacturers developing the TMJ bullet witch is essentially a FMJ with a gas check. Comp leading problem solved! Whether the lead you absorb is from the primer compound or the bullet matters not. Its poor ventilation at indoor ranges thats responsible for the lions share of elevated lead levels.
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  #64  
Old 08-30-2018, 09:37 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Average adult lead levels are around less than 2.0 if I recall. In the 70s it was in the 20s. OSHA has resolved most of those issues.

As the guy who started this thread, my cholesterol is also a bit high....not crazy but higher than it should be.

I guess I would like to know which is worse? There likely is now answer but I am working to reduce both.

I will use better hygiene and I guess walking to and from the range 🙂

I’ll hold off on respirator for now.
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  #65  
Old 08-30-2018, 10:40 AM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
Brickeye:

"There is also some amount of lead vaporized from the base of a bullet by hot powder gasses.
Typical FMJ construction leaves lead exposed at the base.
Just where it will be exposed to multiple thousandths of degrees of powder gases (though very briefly).
Thus the TMJ designation."

Please explain: I stick to my hypothesis if shotgun wads are not melted by the "intense" heat then how is the lead which melts above 700 degrees is melted?
Pistols for the most part use shotgun powders. Also shotgun pressures and velocities are similar to pistol. The "wad" does spend more time inside the barrel and is exposed to this heat much longer.

I'm listening.......
Look at some wads more carefully.
They just about all show some surface damage from melting.


The larger molecules of a plastic material are also more resistant than lead atoms to being vaporized.

The large molecule gives up a few hydrogen atoms along its length.
But at the atomic scale it is far larger than a lead atom.

The plastics used have also been developed to break down as opposed to simply 'melt.'
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  #66  
Old 08-31-2018, 08:25 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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As a chemical engineer, you can’t really compare lead to plastic. It’s not the same at all.

That being said, this doesn’t me that the lead vaporizes either. Haven’t seen any real data on it.
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  #67  
Old 08-31-2018, 03:41 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Chemical Engineer.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
As a chemical engineer, you canít really compare lead to plastic. Itís not the same at all.

That being said, this doesnít me that the lead vaporizes either. Havenít seen any real data on it.
I agree sort of....

I don't think it takes a chemical engineer to understand that a specific powder when ignited a larger amount for a longer time should melt plastic it will also melt lead.

Therefore if plastic is not melted in will not melt lead.

Sorry for not drinking the cool aide.....
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  #68  
Old 08-31-2018, 04:19 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
I agree sort of....

I don't think it takes a chemical engineer to understand that a specific powder when ignited a larger amount for a longer time should melt plastic it will also melt lead.

Therefore if plastic is not melted in will not melt lead.

Sorry for not drinking the cool aide.....
Found these articles. While not scientific nor do they even if they could actually measure the amount of airborne lead they do seem to confirm what I've been saying.

http://www.chuckkleinauthor.com/Page...-officers.html

https://www.usacarry.com/lead-risks-...firearms-ammo/

Also if you go to any indoor range, reach up and wipe the strike plate over your head your finger will be gray. These plates, the walls and the floor are covered in gray soot which is a combination of the things mentioned in the articles above.
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  #69  
Old 08-31-2018, 04:43 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
I agree sort of....

I don't think it takes a chemical engineer to understand that a specific powder when ignited a larger amount for a longer time should melt plastic it will also melt lead.

Therefore if plastic is not melted in will not melt lead.

Sorry for not drinking the cool aide.....
Thats a simplistic way to look at it...

Another simple way to look at it is that, from the responses here, those that shoot heavily indoors and don't institute hygiene protocols for shooting have higher lead levels than those that shoot mostly outside, and/or are exceptionally hygienic after shooting...

Same correlation-causeation process, different conclusions.

SAAMI spec for 12 gauge is ~12k psi. SAAMI spec for .45ACP (a very low pressure cartridge) is 21k psi. 9mm is in the 35k range, and 38SPC+p about 18k...

Do those pressures facilitate airborne particulate lead....?
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  #70  
Old 08-31-2018, 05:33 PM
bicohen bicohen is offline
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Blood Lead

I found that a simple particle mask (I like the 3M 8233) reduced my blood lead and kept it down. It's a nuisance, but an essential nuisance for me. I use it only indoors.
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  #71  
Old 08-31-2018, 09:30 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Lead mitigation is a people problem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Thats a simplistic way to look at it...

Another simple way to look at it is that, from the responses here, those that shoot heavily indoors and don't institute hygiene protocols for shooting have higher lead levels than those that shoot mostly outside, and/or are exceptionally hygienic after shooting...

Same correlation-causeation process, different conclusions.

SAAMI spec for 12 gauge is ~12k psi. SAAMI spec for .45ACP (a very low pressure cartridge) is 21k psi. 9mm is in the 35k range, and 38SPC+p about 18k...

Do those pressures facilitate airborne particulate lead....?
As a high volume shooter for over 40 years and shooting at least 8 hours a week at an indoor range and reloader and bullet caster I should have excessive lead levels, right! I had high lead levels for 3 years prior to the modernization of the indoor range ventilation system. For the last 3 consecutive years since fans were replaced, near zero lead!

I use lots of ventilation when casting, sorting and cleaning brass. I wash my hand afterward religiously. I also wash my hands immediately after shooting. following accepted lead mitigation practices.

I use a N100 respirator when sweeping and cleaning the indoor range.

Nothing special except the excellent ventilation an OCD cleaning.

Lets not drink the cool aide and perpetuate junk science, there are plenty of indoor ranges that have ZERO issues with lead getting into anybody's blood.

Lets talk about some of the indoor ranges in Europe the size of football fields and no lead issues......
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  #72  
Old 08-31-2018, 09:38 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
As a high volume shooter for over 40 years and shooting at least 8 hours a week at an indoor range and reloader and bullet caster I should have excessive lead levels, right! I had high lead levels for 3 years prior to the modernization of the indoor range ventilation system. For the last 3 consecutive years since fans were replaced, near zero lead!

So you did have high lead, and improved ventilation reduced it to almost none....

I use lots of ventilation when casting, sorting and cleaning brass. I wash my hand afterward religiously. I also wash my hands immediately after shooting. following accepted lead mitigation practices.

Again, lots of ventilation, paird with strict adherenceto accepted risk mitigation practices...

I use a N100 respirator when sweeping and cleaning the indoor range.

Again, an industrial risk management practice...

Nothing special except the excellent ventilation an OCD cleaning.

I'd suggests that your practices were/are exceptional...

Lets not drink the cool aide and perpetuate junk science, there are plenty of indoor ranges that have ZERO issues with lead getting into anybody's blood.

Lets talk about some of the indoor ranges in Europe the size of football fields and no lead issues......
So you DID have high lead levels until the ventilation was upgraded... how did that occur? The lead had to get into your system somehow...
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  #73  
Old 08-31-2018, 10:47 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Lead ingestion through breathing----

Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
So you DID have high lead levels until the ventilation was upgraded... how did that occur? The lead had to get into your system somehow...
Lead gets into our blood system directly, or through breathing or by mouth.

The original ventilation was from the 70's and rehashed several times by "handyman" workers One of the fans was inoperative and was turning due to the air being sucked through it backwards. ....the source of my elevated PB during that time period.

I was able to write and receive an NRA Foundation Grant to upgrade the system. Thank you NRA!!

The new system tripled the exhaust volume so the intake plenum had to be tripled as well. Now it almost knocks your hat off!

We have only one club member that has had elevated PB. He is working with his M.D. and cannot identify exactly where the PB is coming from. For 2 years he has worn a N100 respirator, gloves and cut back on his range time. The Health Dept. has taken soil and water samples and still no definitive source. Since PB can enter and remain for long periods, exposure could have occurred before he became a member of the club.

Regards,
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Last edited by jjfitch; 08-31-2018 at 10:54 PM.
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  #74  
Old 09-01-2018, 06:54 AM
OlHippy OlHippy is offline
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OMG. I have been worried about this for awhile now. Could someone tell me what a D-Wipe is. I've seen it referenced here alot.
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  #75  
Old 09-01-2018, 06:57 AM
jlag19 jlag19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlHippy View Post
OMG. I have been worried about this for awhile now. Could someone tell me what a D-Wipe is. I've seen it referenced here alot.


They are hand wipes that dispense from a plastic container ( much like baby wipes) that are specifically for removing lead residue from skin. Can find them on Brownells, EBay, Amazon.


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