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  #1  
Old 06-26-2020, 11:35 PM
Rumblur Rumblur is offline
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AR optics for a VERY casual shooter?

My buddy bought a M&P Sport II, came with a Crimson Trace red dot. We tried to zero it, always came up 6" low even maxed out on the elevation setting.

So now he's wondering what he should put on the rifle for casual shooting and accuracy in the 10-75yd range.

What do you recommend? Fair warning - I know NOTHING about AR's, optics, etc. I've been a lever action iron sight guy my entire life so I'm not help to him, but I knew you guys would be.

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 06-26-2020, 11:49 PM
fnfalman fnfalman is online now
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Tell him to buy a cheap red dot of whichever brand and put it on the rifle. It’s an economical gun...doesn’t need a seven hundred dollars red dot on it. Any cheap red dot from Vortex, Bushnell, Burris, Holosun, Primary Arms, TruGlo, ad infinitum, will do.
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  #3  
Old 06-26-2020, 11:58 PM
Rumblur Rumblur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
Tell him to buy a cheap red dot of whichever brand and put it on the rifle. Itís an economical gun...doesnít need a seven hundred dollars red dot on it. Any cheap red dot from Vortex, Bushnell, Burris, Holosun, Primary Arms, TruGlo, ad infinitum, will do.
did you see where it came with the Crimson Trace red dot already installed? At 50ft it shoots 6-8" low even with the elevation maxed out
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  #4  
Old 06-27-2020, 12:22 AM
Grizzman Grizzman is offline
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Roughly half of my ARs have optics ranging from Crossfires to M4Ss (with variety of mounts), and none of them gave me any troubles with zeroing.

Is he able to zero the irons, if it came with a set?

Something is likely wrong with the RDS, or how it's mounted.
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  #5  
Old 06-27-2020, 12:28 AM
longarm longarm is offline
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get a 30mm 1x or 2x scope. Done and dusted. No power required - illuminated crosshairs may be handy, but I have yet to need them.
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  #6  
Old 06-27-2020, 05:29 AM
fnfalman fnfalman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumblur View Post
did you see where it came with the Crimson Trace red dot already installed? At 50ft it shoots 6-8" low even with the elevation maxed out
No, I did not see where this crimson trace red dot is mounted on the guyís rifle since that you didnít post a picture.
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  #7  
Old 06-27-2020, 05:49 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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I got a sale email from cabelas a while back and took a chance..

I put a Cabelas Red dot on my HK 416 rimfire.

$79.00 and works great.
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  #8  
Old 06-27-2020, 06:31 AM
Ridge Ridge is offline
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I recently have been trying out the Sparc AR II. Seems to be a good optic. If you keep tabs on the various websites you can pick one up for about $150,
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  #9  
Old 06-27-2020, 07:13 AM
Scruff Vette Scruff Vette is offline
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I went with a Sig Sauer Romeo MSR I found on sale for $119. Incredibly accurate and easy to zero. https://www.sigsauer.com/store/romeo-msr.html
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  #10  
Old 06-27-2020, 08:05 AM
Buzz45 Buzz45 is offline
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Can't go wrong with the very inexpensive Bushnell TRS 25. Or for around $140, the Sig Sauer Romeo 5 is an excellent red dot with a 2 MOA dot and auto on/off that really works.

The Crimson Trace is obviously broke.

Last edited by Buzz45; 06-27-2020 at 08:09 AM.
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  #11  
Old 06-27-2020, 10:21 AM
cavelamb cavelamb is online now
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Originally Posted by Ridge View Post
I recently have been trying out the Sparc AR II. Seems to be a good optic. If you keep tabs on the various websites you can pick one up for about $150,



This.

I love mine on a Ruger AR556.
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  #12  
Old 06-27-2020, 11:16 AM
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I've bought several no-name red dots off of Amazon the past couple of years. The only "premium" red dot I own is a SIG Romeo 4. So far in my experience the only thing the Romeo 4 has over the cheap ones is the ability to shut itself off. Now bear in mind I'm just a civilian, and I would never subject my gear to extreme temperatures or throw them off a cliff. But for me and 90% of the guys on this forum a cheap imported optic will do just fine. If you're a hardcore competition shooter, kick doors down for a living or are wandering through Asscrackistan at the moment then it's a different story.
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Old 06-27-2020, 12:40 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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I just put a Kahles Helia red dot on my Barrett REC-7 the other day.

I am quite impressed with it. It is quite a step up in quality from the Eotech that I had on it and it weighs about nothing.
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  #14  
Old 06-27-2020, 01:57 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rumblur View Post
casual shooting and accuracy in the 10-75yd range.
Rumblur,

I might be confused about the 75yard range? What kind of target? In my mind, if you are talking about 75 yards to hit a beer can or smaller, then I would rather have a traditional scope over a reflex. I will tell you that folks can hit a beer can with a reflex at 75 yards(depending on your eyes / experience), but that same shooter can do it better with traditional variable scope. If you are talking about something smaller than a beer can, then 75 yards seems like a difficult With a reflex. I would get a traditional reticle variable power scope.

Leupold VX-Freedom AR 1.5-4x20... something like this might be a better choice for someone just getting into optics and wants to hit something out to 75 yards. It is quite capable. Easy to use, easy to zero and still fast and fun. There are off name brands that would be cheaper... I would not speak to the value. Leupold has an excellent warranty.

In my mind a reflex sight is for close in. A variable is still fast on low power, but is ready for a longer shot with just a crank on the tube. It is always there. If you are a new shooter and want to hit a small target out past 50 or 60 yards I would stay away from a reflex.

Last edited by HarryO45; 06-27-2020 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 06-27-2020, 03:53 PM
VoceNoctum VoceNoctum is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
I've bought several no-name red dots off of Amazon the past couple of years. The only "premium" red dot I own is a SIG Romeo 4. So far in my experience the only thing the Romeo 4 has over the cheap ones is the ability to shut itself off. Now bear in mind I'm just a civilian, and I would never subject my gear to extreme temperatures or throw them off a cliff. But for me and 90% of the guys on this forum a cheap imported optic will do just fine. If you're a hardcore competition shooter, kick doors down for a living or are wandering through Asscrackistan at the moment then it's a different story.
I do have an AIMPoint Pro and a Trijicon compact ACOG, but otherwise I go with "cheaper" alternatives. I got one of the cheap little bushnell red dot (sub $100) things that has been on a few different guns depending on projects, and I did manage to break a mount through tightening, but a replacement was cheap enough also.

Recently got a Holosun 407c pistol optic, has all the bells & whistles I can think of for under $200.
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  #16  
Old 06-27-2020, 04:03 PM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
No, I did not see where this crimson trace red dot is mounted on the guy’s rifle since that you didn’t post a picture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumblur View Post
My buddy bought a M&P Sport II, came with a Crimson Trace red dot. We tried to zero it, always came up 6" low even maxed out on the elevation setting.
Here ya go!

I suspect there might be a mounting issue with the red dot.
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  #17  
Old 06-27-2020, 04:08 PM
VoceNoctum VoceNoctum is offline
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I'm also curious what distance they were sighting at, I know they say they shoot at 10-75, but that can vary a bit on an AR. It's worth noting that the dot is physically 4-5" above the barrel for instance...
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Old 06-27-2020, 04:21 PM
Viper_29 Viper_29 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumblur View Post
My buddy bought a M&P Sport II, came with a Crimson Trace red dot. We tried to zero it, always came up 6" low even maxed out on the elevation setting.

So now he's wondering what he should put on the rifle for casual shooting and accuracy in the 10-75yd range.

What do you recommend? Fair warning - I know NOTHING about AR's, optics, etc. I've been a lever action iron sight guy my entire life so I'm not help to him, but I knew you guys would be.

Thanks!
If it's that far off from being able to zero I'd send the rifle back. Something is def out of spec on the gun if it the elevation is maxed out and still shoots low.
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Old 06-27-2020, 05:15 PM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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Thumbs up

USED Aimpoint.


ALL the quality, at a lower price!
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  #20  
Old 06-27-2020, 05:37 PM
19eleven84 19eleven84 is offline
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Your friend's red dot probably have a smaller range of adjustment or the mount is off.

I've got Vortex Crossfire gen 2 (about 5 years of battery life used casually) and Vortex Sparc AR gen 1 (uses AAA lithium or in an emergency alkaline battery) which I got on sale for about $120 to $150 works great on my several AR carbines and they have a very good warranty and customer support.

I zero my carbines at 50 yds iron sights, then I adjust my red dot to the iron sight.

When I use the red dot only the impacts are close to zero and I only have to fine adjust the red dot slightly.
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  #21  
Old 06-27-2020, 05:50 PM
fnfalman fnfalman is online now
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Originally Posted by The War Wagon View Post
USED Aimpoint.


ALL the quality, at a lower price!
Where do you find used Aimpoint though?
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  #22  
Old 06-28-2020, 01:09 AM
Rumblur Rumblur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
Rumblur,

I might be confused about the 75yard range? What kind of target? In my mind, if you are talking about 75 yards to hit a beer can or smaller, then I would rather have a traditional scope over a reflex. I will tell you that folks can hit a beer can with a reflex at 75 yards(depending on your eyes / experience), but that same shooter can do it better with traditional variable scope. If you are talking about something smaller than a beer can, then 75 yards seems like a difficult With a reflex. I would get a traditional reticle variable power scope.

Leupold VX-Freedom AR 1.5-4x20... something like this might be a better choice for someone just getting into optics and wants to hit something out to 75 yards. It is quite capable. Easy to use, easy to zero and still fast and fun. There are off name brands that would be cheaper... I would not speak to the value. Leupold has an excellent warranty.

In my mind a reflex sight is for close in. A variable is still fast on low power, but is ready for a longer shot with just a crank on the tube. It is always there. If you are a new shooter and want to hit a small target out past 50 or 60 yards I would stay away from a reflex.

as I said, I have no idea what I'm doing with a red dot or any AR for that matter. I was under the assumption a red dot was similar to a leading gunsight like in an old fighter plane? That the dot was where the bullet was going regardless?

We were about 50 feet (not yards) away from a 20" square with a 6" target - the gun always shot outside of the bottom of the target even with the height maxed out. He's not going to be doing a lot of shooting and he's up in years so his eyes aren't great... whatever the best solution would be for a home assault situation. That's straight up honest - say shooting from a 2nd story window at the fence about 100-150 feet away, and on the same level ground say, close in up to 20-30ft.

he's a retired LEO but he retired in the mid 80s before all the techy stuff came online. I'm tuned him up on his handguns and shotgun but AR is new to me as well.
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Old 06-28-2020, 06:16 AM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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Where do you find used Aimpoint though?

Off the equipment exchange/for sale sections of this and other forums, Armslist, & SWFA, off the top of my head. I've bought - and SOLD them - on all of these.
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:22 AM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Originally Posted by Rumblur View Post
as I said, I have no idea what I'm doing with a red dot or any AR for that matter. I was under the assumption a red dot was similar to a leading gunsight like in an old fighter plane? That the dot was where the bullet was going regardless?
No, but I can't imagine a scenario where you would ever have a target moving fast enough for that to be an issue. The advantage of a red dot is that you have a single aiming point, and no matter where the dot is inside the field of view it is lined up on target. So if you take hasty aim and see the dot in the upper left hand corner of the optic, as long as it's on the target that's still where your bullet is going to go. Therefore the advantage in speed should be obvious. For slow, precision aimed shots a good set of iron sights is still just as good as an unmagnified red dot optic, but the name of the game here is improving accuracy under stress or at speed. For casual plinking use however it's just a fun toy to have on your AR.
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Last edited by dsk; 06-28-2020 at 11:25 AM.
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  #25  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:50 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is online now
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Start with the obvious before making yourself crazy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumblur View Post
as I said, I have no idea what I'm doing with a red dot or any AR for that matter. I was under the assumption a red dot was similar to a leading gunsight like in an old fighter plane? That the dot was where the bullet was going regardless?

We were about 50 feet (not yards) away from a 20" square with a 6" target - the gun always shot outside of the bottom of the target even with the height maxed out. He's not going to be doing a lot of shooting and he's up in years so his eyes aren't great... whatever the best solution would be for a home assault situation. That's straight up honest - say shooting from a 2nd story window at the fence about 100-150 feet away, and on the same level ground say, close in up to 20-30ft.

he's a retired LEO but he retired in the mid 80s before all the techy stuff came online. I'm tuned him up on his handguns and shotgun but AR is new to me as well.
The Dot is adjusted the same as any other sight. To start with notice how high the dot is above the bore of the AR! Sighting in at extreme close range will give extremely high hits at long range. Sighting in at extreme long range will give low hits at close range.

Check out ballistic/trajectory tables for most modern cartridges. A battle rifle sighted in an inch low at 25 yards will keep you on target within a few inches out to 200 yards! Depending on the size of the dot it can be used as a POA/POI by holding the dot over or under, think "figure 8" depending on distance!

My AR's whether optic or R/D are sighted in in this manner! I stopped driving myself crazy years ago with this "battle" rifle!

Precision rifle a whole other story!

Smile,
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Last edited by jjfitch; 06-28-2020 at 11:56 AM.
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