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  #1  
Old 12-16-2019, 10:16 AM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Interesting match results at USPSA

At yesterday's match in Nampa ID, the first pcc shooter (classified master) was behind 3 carry optics shooters and 3 singlestack shooters. This is about normal for us.

We do have a local guy who was world champion in steel a couple years ago, and I believe he has once (one single time) managed to actually finish ahead of all the pistol shooters in the make-believe 'overall'.
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  #2  
Old 12-17-2019, 08:51 AM
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Make believe "High Overall."

Thats awesome.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:48 AM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
Make believe "High Overall."

Thats awesome.
as i have mentioned elsewhere, I do pay some attention to other pistol divisions at local matches, just because there is often not much heat in any one division, but if a CO shooter 'wins' by less than 10% or so against single-stack guys, he didn't really 'win', just provided an additional comparison point.

I only pay attention to rifles so I can make fun of them, since the two best rifle shooters are good friends of mine.
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  #4  
Old 12-17-2019, 12:10 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Low overall of a PCC is frequently due to malfunctions. The 9mm carbine is not a finished product.
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Old 12-17-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Low overall of a PCC is frequently due to malfunctions. The 9mm carbine is not a finished product.
We have more than a few PCC shooters in the area that are senior or super seniors. Having a dot on a PCC or a production pistol/CO has kept them in the game.

They arent winning HOA, but at least they are still out there getting it done.

My short barreled Sig MPX (a factory 8 inch SBR) has had one malfunction in the past 18,000 rounds. I broke down this weekend and cleaned it.
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Old 12-17-2019, 01:22 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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I should have said the 9mm AR carbine is not a finished product.
A friend has a JP that I am looking forward to him getting out. He has been shooting some minor make that is not 100%. Strange habit, he owns nicer guns than what he routinely uses. I wonder what he is saving them for.

I am in the post-super senior category but I am clinging to my iron sights. People ask me why I don't change to dots. I just like the conventional pistols. I know one guy who has dabbled in dots but will not make the commitment and shoot them all the time. He wonders why he does not score better with them.

Last edited by Jim Watson; 12-17-2019 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 12-17-2019, 01:54 PM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Low overall of a PCC is frequently due to malfunctions. The 9mm carbine is not a finished product.
No malfunctions at this match. Their guns ran perfectly. In fact, the 2nd place pcc guy (down in 10th-12 overall, behind 4 SS shooters) even got a reshoot on a stage he tanked when the timer didn't pick up his last shots.

They finished further down because on most stages among good shooters, pcc is not a significant advantage. While they can be quicker and more accurate for some things, they are also slower to reload (given the same amount of practice), and slower to get in and out of ports, around corners, into hard leans, etc...

There's a reason that PCC has won exactly zero imaginary high overalls at nationals or area matches this year. If max or josh isn't there, they can't even get into the top 15.
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  #8  
Old 12-17-2019, 01:58 PM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
I should have said the 9mm AR carbine is not a finished product.
Like 1911's, they are assembled from parts, by people of varying skills. We have one that my wife uses only for steel challenge (she thinks shooting rifles in pistol matches is stupid). We have never had a malfunction.... but it was built by a local guy who knows what he is doing.

from what I can tell, alot of the problems are due to insufficient finish work when people put big extensions on 30 rd glock mags, and the followers won't reliably make the transition between extension and mag body.
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2019, 02:55 PM
Snoopy47 Snoopy47 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
Make believe "High Overall."

Thats awesome.
I wonder about that too. I just started shooting Steel Challenge myself and got 19th of 28 overall (1st in SS), but if you remove all the rifles, 22s, and optics I got 2nd among all iron sight pistols regardless of division.

Then I look at who all is shooting in the non pistol divisions and see they are B's, A's, and Masters. Are there lower thresholds to classify well in these "newer" divisions?
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Old 12-28-2019, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Snoopy47 View Post
I wonder about that too. I just started shooting Steel Challenge myself and got 19th of 28 overall (1st in SS), but if you remove all the rifles, 22s, and optics I got 2nd among all iron sight pistols regardless of division.

Then I look at who all is shooting in the non pistol divisions and see they are B's, A's, and Masters. Are there lower thresholds to classify well in these "newer" divisions?
Thats awesome. Congrats. 2nd place iron sights.

I dont pay much attention to classifications. A solid B shooter can sneak by a Master if they have a bad day. For the most part, I view the whole classification system/ststems as just a barrel measuring contest.
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Old 12-29-2019, 01:35 AM
Snoopy47 Snoopy47 is offline
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For the most part, I view the whole classification system/ststems as just a barrel measuring contest.
Isn't that what it's all about anyway.

I mean there are all these insane fast times with .22 and PCC, but those start from the LOW READY. That could be 1 second per string, 4 seconds per stage, and 30+ seconds per match (all stages).

At least that's what it is for me. I lose a second over drawing from the holster (retention holster) verses from the low ready on my first shot. But the variance between GM SS and GM Rim Fire Iron is only 14 seconds.

So I'm saying I would probably pick up 30 seconds alone all things being equal starting from the low ready, then add on top of that shooing .22 verses 45ACP. Not to mention my Ruger 22s all have Volquartsen 2lb triggers.

The path to GM in 22 and PCC looks WAY EASIER than say any center fire pistol.

I'm saying Rim Fire Iron should be 25-30 seconds harder than SS, not merely 14. To me, those extra 15 seconds are given to me freely without having to actually "work for them" to be on equal footing for simply picking up an easier pistol.

Then we look at Carry Optics. The different between GM SS and GM CO is only FOUR seconds.

I think in my heart of hearts I'm going to do WAY better than 4 seconds across the entire course of fire of 195 rounds for an optic pistol over an iron one. In fact that's exactly what I have equipped for. I have matching 1911s and G17's with optics and without. I've just never shot them in Steel Challenge.

I just get a feeling going CO, PCC, or 22 basically gets you half way to the next Classification for free. The classification curve is lower.

Hence, the barrel measuring, but now I don't think a 22 GM is anywhere on par with a iron sight center fire pistol GM.
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Old 12-29-2019, 10:27 AM
pat_jones pat_jones is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
I dont pay much attention to classifications. A solid B shooter can sneak by a Master if they have a bad day. For the most part, I view the whole classification system/ststems as just a barrel measuring contest.
Says the 3 division GM.

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  #13  
Old 12-29-2019, 11:17 AM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Originally Posted by Snoopy47 View Post
I wonder about that too. I just started shooting Steel Challenge myself and got 19th of 28 overall (1st in SS), but if you remove all the rifles, 22s, and optics I got 2nd among all iron sight pistols regardless of division.

Then I look at who all is shooting in the non pistol divisions and see they are B's, A's, and Masters. Are there lower thresholds to classify well in these "newer" divisions?
news flash, it's easier to shoot a 22 pistol or rifle than a centerfire pistol. My wife is a GM in 3 divisions in steel challenge (pcc and 22 rifle/pistol), and also a solid B in limited.
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Old 12-29-2019, 11:19 AM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Originally Posted by Snoopy47 View Post
Isn't that what it's all about anyway.

I mean there are all these insane fast times with .22 and PCC, but those start from the LOW READY. That could be 1 second per string, 4 seconds per stage, and 30+ seconds per match (all stages).

At least that's what it is for me. I lose a second over drawing from the holster (retention holster) verses from the low ready on my first shot. But the variance between GM SS and GM Rim Fire Iron is only 14 seconds.

So I'm saying I would probably pick up 30 seconds alone all things being equal starting from the low ready, then add on top of that shooing .22 verses 45ACP. Not to mention my Ruger 22s all have Volquartsen 2lb triggers.

The path to GM in 22 and PCC looks WAY EASIER than say any center fire pistol.

I'm saying Rim Fire Iron should be 25-30 seconds harder than SS, not merely 14. To me, those extra 15 seconds are given to me freely without having to actually "work for them" to be on equal footing for simply picking up an easier pistol.

Then we look at Carry Optics. The different between GM SS and GM CO is only FOUR seconds.

I think in my heart of hearts I'm going to do WAY better than 4 seconds across the entire course of fire of 195 rounds for an optic pistol over an iron one. In fact that's exactly what I have equipped for. I have matching 1911s and G17's with optics and without. I've just never shot them in Steel Challenge.

I just get a feeling going CO, PCC, or 22 basically gets you half way to the next Classification for free. The classification curve is lower.

Hence, the barrel measuring, but now I don't think a 22 GM is anywhere on par with a iron sight center fire pistol GM.

You make some valid points, but you probably need to work on your draw. I get a difference of about .5 seconds on a draw from holster vs low-ready start.
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Old 12-29-2019, 01:16 PM
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Says the 3 division GM.
I got lucky.
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Old 03-11-2020, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by motosapiens View Post
At yesterday's match in Nampa ID, the first pcc shooter (classified master) was behind 3 carry optics shooters and 3 singlestack shooters. This is about normal for us.

We do have a local guy who was world champion in steel a couple years ago, and I believe he has once (one single time) managed to actually finish ahead of all the pistol shooters in the make-believe 'overall'.
See, that just proves it's not the length of the barrel, but the skill of the one pullin' the trigger. Wait a minute ... somehow that sounded differently in my head.
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Old 03-13-2020, 04:35 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Action Pistol shooting with Pistol Caliber Carbines....

At an IDPA match a month or so ago, I believe when looking at the Match results on Practiscore, with roughly 80 shooters that participated, there were five PCC shooters in the top ten, and first place was with a PCC shooter.....

Whether I like it or not, the pistol caliber carbine is now becoming very popular in action shooting in my area. Although "high overall" is not really recognized in IDPA, it does show that the use of a short barreled shoulder weapon is faster and more stable in action shooting events, and becoming more popular.

I shoot many different pistol disciplines, and when shooting Action Steel, I was at a disadvantage because many of the stages had 32 rounds, and my STI 2011 race gun could only hold 27+1 rounds with a 170mm mag, so I was forced to do a standing reload if we shot from one position. The PCC shooters had 30+ mags that allowed them to shoot without making a reload. I got creative, and cut an old STI mag to weld a three inch extension to my 170mm mag and now have a functioning 35 round mag that I will use when necessary. If I can do a reload on the move, I will use my standard STI 2011 170mm mag.
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Old 03-15-2020, 05:59 PM
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Here we go again with the short barreled rifle argument. Almost none of the PCCs I've seen at events are actually SBRs.

Shot a match in NJ on Saturday. I wish there were more PCC there because it would have been a better experiment, but the reason they are faster in a lot of cases is just mag capacity. Over in NJ where everyone is limited to 10 rounds, PCC doesn't win and there is much less butt hurt over the division existing.
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Old 03-15-2020, 09:53 PM
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Although "high overall" is not really recognized in IDPA, it does show that the use of a short barreled shoulder weapon is faster and more stable in action shooting events, and becoming more popular.
So all these Pistol Caliber Carbines were NFA Registered Short Barreled Rifles?

That simple fact warms my heart to know that people with tax stamped PCCs are out shooting.
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Old 03-17-2020, 05:46 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Call me a traditionalist.....

There is a big difference in learning to use a handgun effectively when compared to using a shoulder fired weapon that does not have to be holstered. I remember shooting a USPSA local match where the three top HOA shooters were within 1.5 seconds with their total times for six shooting stages.....

PCC shooters with high cap mags will always have an advantage over pistol shooters, so "high overall" results, even when not officially recognized, should reflect HOA pistol shooters, and then HOA for PCC shooters.... they do not compete on a level playing field...….and it should not be too difficult to post both results....

Even in NRA Bullseye matches, they have 3 gun divisions......22cal, centerfire of choice, and the .45acp division. They show separate results for each gun division...… A .22 caliber standard velocity handgun round has substantially less recoil, is not on the same playing field as centerfire pistol cartridges, and is always scored as a separate gun division.

I believe PCC should be scored as a separate gun division when competing against pistol shooters......they are welcomed to shoot, but should not be compared to pistol shooters..... Any club could have a PCC only shooting match, and allow handgun shooters to shoot too!
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Old 03-17-2020, 06:46 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
There is a big difference in learning to use a handgun effectively when compared to using a shoulder fired weapon that does not have to be holstered. I remember shooting a USPSA local match where the three top HOA shooters were within 1.5 seconds with their total times for six shooting stages.....

PCC shooters with high cap mags will always have an advantage over pistol shooters, so "high overall" results, even when not officially recognized, should reflect HOA pistol shooters, and then HOA for PCC shooters.... they do not compete on a level playing field...….and it should not be too difficult to post both results....

Even in NRA Bullseye matches, they have 3 gun divisions......22cal, centerfire of choice, and the .45acp division. They show separate results for each gun division...… A .22 caliber standard velocity handgun round has substantially less recoil, is not on the same playing field as centerfire pistol cartridges, and is always scored as a separate gun division.

I believe PCC should be scored as a separate gun division when competing against pistol shooters......they are welcomed to shoot, but should not be compared to pistol shooters..... Any club could have a PCC only shooting match, and allow handgun shooters to shoot too!
Having PCC scores combined in the HOA is no different than a production shooter being scored in with Open shooters. Just ignore the ones you're not competing against, It doesn't matter.
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Old 03-17-2020, 08:08 AM
waktasz waktasz is online now
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^^^ I was going to post exactly that. A 29 round major shooting dot and comp equipped gun doesn't compete against a 10 round Glock Production gun, but they are combined in the results.
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  #23  
Old 03-17-2020, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
There is a big difference in learning to use a handgun effectively when compared to using a shoulder fired weapon that does not have to be holstered. I remember shooting a USPSA local match where the three top HOA shooters were within 1.5 seconds with their total times for six shooting stages.....

PCC shooters with high cap mags will always have an advantage over pistol shooters, so "high overall" results, even when not officially recognized, should reflect HOA pistol shooters, and then HOA for PCC shooters.... they do not compete on a level playing field...….and it should not be too difficult to post both results....

Even in NRA Bullseye matches, they have 3 gun divisions......22cal, centerfire of choice, and the .45acp division. They show separate results for each gun division...… A .22 caliber standard velocity handgun round has substantially less recoil, is not on the same playing field as centerfire pistol cartridges, and is always scored as a separate gun division.

I believe PCC should be scored as a separate gun division when competing against pistol shooters......they are welcomed to shoot, but should not be compared to pistol shooters..... Any club could have a PCC only shooting match, and allow handgun shooters to shoot too!
Its called the United States Practical Shooting Assn. Not the United States Pistol Shooting Assn.

Feel free to start your own game and not allow PCCs to participate.

People around here are happy to have people out exercising their 2nd Amendment Rights. They do not try to further divide gun owners much like you seem to want to do just because of some make believe "High Overall" ranking and your ego.
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Old 03-17-2020, 10:53 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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I am in recovery from PCCphobia. It still disturbs my wa but I am looking beyond the overall scores.
I was just a while ago talking to a friend who had received his 13 round extensions and was just sure 46 rounds on tap would be a big advantage in a Long Field Course of 32 scored hits.

I have only definitely seen one bona fide SBR at a USPSA or IDPA match.
Sanctioned matches do not allow "braced pistols" but the outlaw "style" matches are lousy with them.
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Old 03-17-2020, 11:33 AM
markm markm is offline
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I have only definitely seen one bona fide SBR at a USPSA or IDPA match.
My nephew has a real SBR and at our last USPSA match he said he hates getting beat by pistols. I had to point out that he also got beat by a revolver, the guy was a GM but I would have liked to been on that squad and seen.
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