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  #1  
Old 07-16-2020, 11:33 AM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Ayoob on trigger weight. Changed my mind.

I've dismissed, here on this forum, the concept that trigger weight lightening could matter in a legitimate, and INTENTIONAL, SD shooting case.

I too thought that Ayoob was full of poop when he says to not not lighten a trigger. Because, i thought, that if you meant to shoot the creep it doesn't matter. That trigger weight only mattered in an accidental shooting.

But I just watched him interviewed on Active Self Protection. What he basically says is that since insurers don't cover (pay the Plaintiff) for intentional acts, the Plaintiff's lawyers will try to paint you as NEGLIGENT by your lightening a trigger beyond factory specs.

This is only because there's a big paycheck coming if a jury is convinced there was negligence. Because your insurance DOES cover negligence.

So they will try very hard to prove it. And they will use your monkeying with the trigger as evidence.

--------- Please don't post the same comments we have all seen here before, without first watching the full video of what the man has to say.

It's easily found on the Active Self Protection website. Interesting stuff.
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  #2  
Old 07-16-2020, 12:04 PM
Steven1127 Steven1127 is offline
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I too watched it and it certainly made me think about what he was saying.
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  #3  
Old 07-16-2020, 12:15 PM
roaniecowpony roaniecowpony is offline
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I currently have 3 guns out for defense of our home. All are factory triggers because of what Ayoob and others have preached. But also because I came to the same conclusion decades ago, and that I concluded a "target trigger" isn't necessary in a home defense situation where the distances are very short. At least in my little home.
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  #4  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:02 PM
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But he admitting to carrying a custom Beretta with a lightened trigger!?!

Would have been more convincing if a case where someone lost on such a claim was cited.
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  #5  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:05 PM
SC shooter SC shooter is offline
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I have a Kimber with a 2# trigger, it was that way when I got it second hand. I don't know if it was worked on or not but I can't imagine Kimber selling guns with 2# triggers. It is one of the most accurate guns I have because of that trigger.

I would not carry it and I surely would not want someone pointing it at me in a fight under stress with adrenalin spiked out because that things goes bang with just a touch. It is one sweet shooting gun though.
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  #6  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:07 PM
Levian Levian is online now
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Definitely gives one something to think about. The first thing I did when I got my Gen 1 M&P was swap the trigger out for an Apex trigger. All it really does is make a more crisp defined break & reset. With the duty/carry spring I installed the advertised pull weight is 5.0-5.5 lb. And it feels about that. But it makes me wonder if that still doesn't open one up to litigation after watching that video. I have doubts it would be a problem, but you never know these days. Opportunistic vultures will latch onto any scrap they think they can to get a buck.
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  #7  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:07 PM
magnut magnut is offline
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you have to survive an encounter first before you worry about nonsense like this.

I will Go with what I can accurately hit my target with.
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  #8  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:16 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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My guns are stock from the manufacturer that I would use for those purposes, 3.5 is the usual but I have two 2.3 and one 1.2 that are totally unmodified stock. Not really a big issue since it's not "light" in the sense it's hard to control or predict
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Old 07-16-2020, 01:37 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Side question: He cited a case at the end of the video concerning zombie/skulls etc. Arizona Vs ???? I couldn't quite hear the name ------- anybody here catch it?
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Old 07-16-2020, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Side question: He cited a case at the end of the video concerning zombie/skulls etc. Arizona Vs ???? I couldn't quite hear the name ------- anybody here catch it?
Pretty sure it was Brailsford...the cop that shot Daniel Shaver. He had some expressions written on his rifle.
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  #11  
Old 07-16-2020, 02:00 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Oh yeah. That guy. I wouldn't do it for two reasons.

1. Can make you look ridiculous to a jury

2. It's tacky

I don't wear tasteless slogans / images or put them on my guns/cars. I'm low-class enough without that crap!
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  #12  
Old 07-16-2020, 02:26 PM
flechero flechero is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James View Post
But he admitting to carrying a custom Beretta with a lightened trigger!?!
No, he said that he purposely bought it from a custom manufacturer... and it is unmodified from the "factory." The premise being that the manufacturer's established "duty weight" is sufficient to dispel a prosecutor's attempts to pin you for lighter than customary trigger weight.
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Old 07-16-2020, 03:33 PM
Pat-inCO Pat-inCO is offline
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I find about twenty or thirty percent of that video to be VERY offensive . . . . because the
ding-dang moron doing the "interview" would not SHUT HIS MOUTH!

He interrupted, seemed to think HIS was the superior knowledge, that his opinion
amounted to anything of worth.
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Old 07-16-2020, 03:37 PM
buck460XVR buck460XVR is offline
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In many states(mine for one), Castle Doctrine laws give you immunity from civil lawsuits when you use deadly force to legitimately protect yourself. No big paycheck regardless of trigger pull. Seems some folks don't think the families of criminals should get a paycheck because their family member tried to murder or maim someone.

Ayoob has been telling folks for over 3 decades not to use handloads too. Yet, in not one legitimate SD scenario, has ammo made one bit of difference. My mama told me I'd never meet a good woman in a bar either. Been married to a woman I met in a bar since before anyone even knew who Ayoob was. Folks claim there's a Sasquatch too.....but until I see proof, I ain't gonna wear the tin foil hat.
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Old 07-16-2020, 03:55 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Pat-inCO --------- Do you know who the interviewer is? You can have a beef with him on interviewing skills, but he's far from an unknowledgeable amateur on defensive handgunning .
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Old 07-16-2020, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flechero View Post
No, he said that he purposely bought it from a custom manufacturer... and it is unmodified from the "factory." The premise being that the manufacturer's established "duty weight" is sufficient to dispel a prosecutor's attempts to pin you for lighter than customary trigger weight.
Very few are fooled by that. Using his own logic:

The trigger is "lighter than customary" for millions of Beretta 92 duty pistols. "It can be shot easier intentionally so it can be shot easier unintentionally." "He can't hit a target this big without his" special Langdon Tactical "custom" reckless and dangerous murder pistol.
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Old 07-16-2020, 03:59 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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buck460XVR--------- Does that Castle Doctrine cover negligence? Don't be so sure unless you are a lawyer in this field, or have consulted with one on that specific question.
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  #18  
Old 07-16-2020, 04:01 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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He was saying that those allegations could be made against you by a plaintiff's attorney. Which is true.

Last edited by magazineman; 07-16-2020 at 04:03 PM.
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  #19  
Old 07-16-2020, 06:42 PM
Pat-inCO Pat-inCO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman
Pat-inCO --------- Do you know who the interviewer is?
You can have a beef with him on interviewing skills, but he's far from an
unknowledgeable amateur on defensive handgunning .
Don't really care. He REPEATEDLY interrupted Ayoob to insert his own opinion.
My read of Ayoob's body language is that he (Ayoob) almost walked out of the "interview".

THAT is a moron conducting the so called "interview".
Phrased another way, he has minimal people skills and is on an ego trip.
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  #20  
Old 07-16-2020, 07:09 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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So, does upgrading / replacing a factory AR trigger with a i.e. Geiseele, etc trigger Further expose someone liability wise? It is somewhat a moot point if you shoot someone, no?
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  #21  
Old 07-16-2020, 07:19 PM
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Remember that we're not dealing with the law here. We're talking about a lawyer trying to put a spin on whatever gunsmithing that has been done to your firearm that makes you look reckless or without any regard for safety. Smoothing out the trigger pull merely makes it so you're less likely to jerk the trigger or miss and strike an innocent bystander. But lightening the trigger to the point where it is well below factory specs can get you into trouble. If your 1911 has a crisp, clean 4.5# trigger there no way they can know that your pistol didn't simply come with an excellent trigger from the factory. But if its 2.5# and the Series 80 safety has been yanked out it's another matter.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:26 PM
Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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All my SD pistols have a 4-4.5lb pull, which is optimal for me.
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  #23  
Old 07-16-2020, 07:51 PM
Welder Guy Welder Guy is offline
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My SA Elite Operator (that I carry on occasion) supposedly had a 4 lb. trigger from the factory. Tested it and the average came out to 3 lbs 10oz. Dropped in a C&S hammer and sear set and the trigger pull is still averaging 3 pounds 10oz. I have thought about increasing the sear spring tension though to try and get it closer to 4 lbs.
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  #24  
Old 07-16-2020, 08:30 PM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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Quote:
I too thought that Ayoob was full of poop when he says to not not lighten a trigger. Because, i thought, that if you meant to shoot the creep it doesn't matter. That trigger weight only mattered in an accidental shooting.
That is not what he said in MAG-20. Perhaps you misunderstood or didn't get the whole context.

The key is that the trigger, along with the rest of the gun's components, must remain within spec. Springfield Armory will say one thing, Colt another, and Wilson Combat will say a third. If needed, the company will send one of their engineers to testify or send a letter to the court. If you buy a Wilson Combat Super Grade that comes with a 3.5# trigger, you're probably not going to have a problem. You may end up needing some testimony from Wilson Combat, thought it's likely going to be needed anyway, but you did nothing to modify the gun after you bought it.

For example, Ayoob has frequently stated he uses a 3.5# connector with a NY-1 trigger spring in his Glocks. The reason is that on the Gen 4 and older guns, the pull is smoothed out and the pull and reset weights increase. A gun setup like this will typically have a 6.25-6.75# trigger pull with very positive reset. This is still within spec for a Glock (which goes up to NY-2 triggers, the pull weight of which turns it into an overly heavy and difficult to use trigger).

Contrast this with several aftermarket triggers from various companies. Some are very smooth and light. Others have those features, but also have a short distance to the wall. Some of these triggers are not drop safe. They are examples of triggers that take a Glock out of spec.



In summary:

It's not that you're trying to avoid prosecution because of your equipment. It is that you're trying to insulate yourself from extra liability should a prosecutor decide to come after you. Each one of those hours costs you lawyer time and bringing in consultants to testify only increases your bill. Some prosecutors will use anything they can to distract the jury away from the criminal behavior of the deceased or wounded criminal. You can do everything right and still get put through the grinder.

You can modify your gun to suit your needs. You have to be able to logically lay the reason out for the court. You should avoid any sort of controversial logos and designs on the gun; leave those for the gun range. The gun must remain within the tolerances set out by the manufacturer.

Use factory ammo that you track. Keep a load log showing the manufacturer data and lot numbers. Change your carry ammo every six months to avoid failure due to exposure to human sweat and environment (source: Tom Givens, Rangemaster). Document what you know and keep a box of all your books, copies of articles, and notes from classes. All of this information is relevant to any case because what you knew at the time is admissible as evidence. This is why Ayoob shows videos in his MAG-20/MAG-40 class : those videos can be shown to the jury in order to educate them When they leave to deliberate your fate, they will go into that room as peers who know about guns, law and self-defense despite being picked for their ignorance of those subjects.

Last edited by tomrkba; 07-16-2020 at 08:46 PM.
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  #25  
Old 07-16-2020, 08:41 PM
JMJ1015 JMJ1015 is offline
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I decided a long time ago not to modify factory triggers. I don't remove safety devices either. There have actually been a couple of guns I decided not to buy because I did not like the way certain safety devices were designed. I came to the conclusion I should buy what I want & not monkey around with it. I don't own a trigger pull gauge but I am almost curious enough to buy one just to see what the trigger pull weight is on some of my pistols. It always seems like they feel lighter after enough rounds have been run through the gun to smooth things out whether they really are or not.
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