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Les Baer 1.5" accuracy Ransom Rest Test

55K views 199 replies 75 participants last post by  Guyfromohio 
#1 · (Edited)
Les Baer 1.5" accuracy Ransom Rest Test

I tested my heavyweight monolith w 1.5" accuracy guarantee this week. I purchased the gun through CJ last year. Right around 12 months as promised I received the call to send funds and FFL. John shipped it quick during the holidays. I added a few options:

Heavy weight mono
No FCS
Keep both roll marks (still wondering if I should have went naked slide)
3.5 trigger
1.5" accuracy guarantee at 50 yards



Anyone knows 50 yards is pretty far. I've been shooting bullseye in a few leagues and have competed in a few State matches. I would consider myself slightly above average. There are some really good shooters and I found this can be a humbling sport. I really enjoy testing the equipment, ammo and myself. This leads me to today and wanting to test what I have.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on how exactly Les Baer confirms the 1.5" except for the cardboard cut out he sends with the pistol. Internet folklore says they use Federal American Eagle 230 grain hard ball and Les tests all the guns free hand himself. I always found this hard to believe. Even Les won't guarantee his hard ball guns with the 1.5".
Anyone that shoots 50 yards one handed unsupported knows you can't hold that tight unless your a freak.

First off I want to say I'm very happy with my purchase. Gun was exactly what I envisioned it would be. I actually was really happy with the stock grips on this one. They have more character than the other two Baers I own.

So on with the test. I fairly new to the ransom rest. I know that using it correctly can be a variable in the test itself. I am by no means a pro.

Here was my procedure in a nutshell.

Placed gun in rest.
Made sure was lined up in grip panels correctly.
All knobs adjusted and tightened for vertical/horizontal adjustments.
Tightened frame knobs in A B and C sequence so that frame was really snug but did not put magazine in a bind.
Fired 15 rounds to settle gun in rest.

Each time after firing I tried to be consistent with firm but not overly forceful with returning rest to the down position.

I first tested my Premier II I use for Bullseye. It has a ultra dot mounted on the slide. It has the standard 3" guarantee. This gun will shoot 2.5-3" all day. I did notice this time and previously when carefully manipulating the trigger arm the dot would slightly rise. I tried to use the same motion/force and rhythm with each shot. I would get fairly accurate results. I then toyed with putting slight pressure with my left hand down on the rest while using my right hand to manipulate the firing lever. I was getting really tight and consistent groups.

Now I loaded up the mono.

Each target received 5 shots



Following the same procedures as before. This was my best target with the Federal Amercan Eagle 230.



One shot was low left and slightly off target. I can't say I was surprised but I did expect a little better.

Next I brought out my reloads I've been using for competition. Loaded on a dillion 550.
200 grain oregan trail laser cast SWC
4.2 WST
.470 taper crimp
1.235 COAL
Federal match LP primers
Once fire federal cases media tumbled with no brass prep.

This was my best target.





Right at or just under 2" measured center of holes at furthest distance with tape. I Didn't have calipers on me. I'll post the official measure later.

I have some federal match 185's that I know shoot wonderful. I didn't bring any this time but will next.
I also have 5,000 Nosler 185 projectiles and
8lbs VV N310 that want to work up. I hear this is the Marine Corp load. Although I can find exact info on it. Powder ranges from 4.2-4.8 and can't find overall length etc...


If anyone has any specifics on the Marine Corp load it would be greatly appreciated.

Also any recommendations on improving ransom rest techniques? I think the best addition would be a hydraulic trigger do-hicky that would attach to the front trigger guard. It seems any slight movement is magnified at this distance.

I have also toyed with changing primers to tweak an already accurate load. Anyone ever see a difference in pistols like in rifles.

Thanks for reading. I will try to keep this updated.
 
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#155 ·
I think it is highly likely Les Baer, or someone with his company, monitors this forum and quite likely this thread. How simple it would be for Baer to publish their protocol for testing pistols and thus end all the speculation. The lack of info direct from the company can't help but raise questions. Has anyone ever requested a detailed answer direct from Baer? The response?
 
#156 ·
I find it curious that this question keeps being raised. I have never heard of anyone posting that they put their Baer in a Ransom Rest, ran the target out to 50 yards, used Federal 185 gr FMJ Match SWC and were unable to match the guaranteed accuracy standard.
 
#160 ·
In fact, as I may have mentioned earlier, I have two Baers: one with the 1.5" guarantee (Ultimate Master 5" with 855 rounds fired) and one without (Premier II with 1,145 rounds fired).

Part one of this shoot-off will be 10-shot Ransom groups at 25 yards from each pistol with at least 15 different carefully constructed handloads and a few factory offerings, including Les' preferred Federal American Eagle 230 grain FMJs.

Part two will be to take the four or five best-performing loads and Ransom them at 50 yards, probably shooting multiple 5-shot groups per load. I will be sure to include the factory AEs in the 50-yard test.
 
#161 ·
Hopefully your reloads will include Vihtavuori powders, specifically N-310 and N-320 using 185 grain Zero bullets.:)

N-310 starting at 4.2 and going to 4.7 grains gives fairly tight groups with 4.3/4.4 working best in my pistols. N-320 works best for me at 5.4/5.5 grains.
 
#163 ·
Well Joe, I made some small batches to chronograph because I hadn't used N-310 before and I needed a reference for the real world velocities I would be getting out of my 5" 1911s (as opposed to the Vihtavuori supplied data).

One of my favorite bullets right now is the Hornady HAP 200 gr. Out of a Supergrade, 4.0 gr. of N-310 yielded 725 fps, 4.5 gr. gave 820 fps and 4.8 gr. was 880 fps.

I already have about 100 rounds of N-310 (4.8 grains) loaded behind the Zero 185 JHPs, which chronographed at 820 fps. I also have the 4.8 gr. loaded up with Nosler, Gold Dot, Magtech, and a couple of other 185 gr. heads along with N-310 and several 230 grain FMJs. Plus, most of the same bullets with both True Blue and Accurate #5 powders, all ready to test.

I have a lot of the N-310 so I'll probably also try your 4.3/4.4 load at some point.

So, there should be enough variety to ensure at least a few high performing loads. Will also be testing the AE, WWB and Remington green box factory stuff.

Should be a very interest series of tests...
 
#164 ·
Notice that the pistol has the slide forward when the test was started. Are we seeing the first shot through tenth or the second through eleventh?

The pistol and the ammo is very good in the video, but 30 shots from three slides locked back would be more of a real world test for competition use. A display of possibly the worst the pistol/ammo will do.

As my friends and I are finding out, Ransom Rest testing will have you pulling your hair out trying to minimize testing variables, such as loose mounting, wind, moving targets, worn inserts, consistent positioning and consistent triggering.
 
#166 ·
Here's a few groups from 25 yards rested - my problem is consistent grip tension is what is causing the flyers - I really need to have some sharp raised stripling on the front strap to cause some uniform unpleasantness in my grip.

These are pretty typical 25 yard rested groups, except for that almost one holer, with my PII having the slide milled to accept a leupold deltapoint. Of course, I can and do shoot larger groups both off-hand and rested without any problem, in fact, sometimes I can shoot all around that green circle.:)
 

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#170 · (Edited)
Measurement was from outside to outside of the group - then subtract the diameter of the bullet. Where there are two measurements - one would be of the smallest 4 shot group and the other (larger measure) measurement would be the actual 5-shot group - again measuring outside ring to outside ring then subtract bullet diameter.

When I shoot at 50 yards and in my opinion I shoot exactly the same way - the groups don't multiply by 2 - they multiply by 3, 4, 5 or larger - best groups run from a tad over 2.5"s to a tad under 3"s.:)

I have tried group shooting at 100 yards - nothing good came from that.

This particular Baer PII with the 1.5 option is set up just a tad different than what most folks would probably due. After having the slide milled for the Deltapoint, I had it Hardhat treated, then installed a EGW firing pin stop, paid a good 1911 smith to install a Hammer/Sear/Titanium FP Ultra-Light Kit along with a 2# trigger job. I sent along my target loads, carry loads, as well as my hunting loads, so he could make the necessary adjustments to prevent a hammer follow on the heavy hitters, which sometimes is a problem with a light trigger job. He did a great job but it took a lot of talking before he agreed to do the trigger job, as there's a ton of people out there that won't take responsibility for themselves and when they experience a problem of their own making, they want to blame & sue somebody.
 
#172 ·
Measurement was from outside to outside of the group - then subtract the diameter of the bullet.
That's the correct procedure, but the first group here:


shows a measurement of .951, which would be 2 bullet diameters plus 0.049... about 1/9th of a bullet diameter; the two outside shots should be almost touching. However, one can clearly see there is a substantial gap between the two outside bullets. There's room for at least a half and perhaps as much as 2/3rds of a diameter between those holes. That would give a group of around 0.7 (1.15 - 0.451), still a great group.

Where there are two measurements - one would be of the smallest 4 shot group and the other (larger measure) measurement would be the actual 5-shot group - again measuring outside ring to outside ring then subtract bullet diameter.
I only see one measurement on the first target, but based on the large gap between the two outside targets, it looks like 0.95 might be a 4 shot group measurement.

For comparison, here's a very similar 5 shot group, but with under half a bullet diameter between the two outside shots, with a ruler for measurement:


That one edge to edge is 1.03... so the gap between the outside shots is roughly a third of a diameter (28.4%).
 
#175 · (Edited)
Tim, that is a 5-shot group there for the 0.951 target - the 5th round is somewhere in there. The target spot is 3.0 inches. Your right in that the group looks to be a little less than 3 bullet holes in length but you need to subtract one bullet hole and you come out with something between a half and three quarters of an inch.

I measure with a Starrett digital 6" caliper but I could have given myself a generous measurement, however, I just got out one of those 3" Birchwood Casey self-adhesive target spots and eyeballed the group posted and put the caliper in the approximate area on this clean target spot and came up with a 0.997 (0.546" group), so it's somewhere in there close and I'll take a 0.7" 5 shot group whenever I can get it.:).

I just wish I could hold better at the 50 yard line off the bags, as just once in my life, I'd like to shoot a 5-shot group measuring 1.5 inches at 50 yards.

Black Hills ammunition is excellent stuff - never shot the handgun ammunition but their 308 Match ammo is every bit as good as the premium Federal 168 grain match, at least in my match grade rifles.
 
#185 ·
Interdasting.
I've been absent from this forum for half a decade.
Back then it was, "Ransom Rest and Fed AE, that's all you need to meet the guarantee!"
I've only got 3" on my TRS and Stinger and the SRP with the 2.5". I never got close with factory ammo to what I could do with a tweaked Bullseye or Clays load and 200 gr. LSWC.
 
#193 ·
I talked to Les and he said to send back to him and he would shoot another target for me.

I decided to go another route.
So..... Very Very interesting story here..... what is the other route you chose? I think I'd be a little bit more than miffed if les told me he would shoot 'another' target with your new pistol just to prove that perhaps his first target was the real McCoy, which sounds like it wasn't, especially with the FP strike on the proof casing being off. I'm sure that you would have noticed your FP strikes being off like that. I always look at my spents. Who doesn't?
Anyway, what was the other route you took?
 
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