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  #101  
Old 01-31-2019, 07:23 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Do You Guys Remember Spock and Tri-dimensional Chess?

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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I think that he has strengthened his position as well. He has sent the people back to get their pay checks. But he still has them over a barrel. We will see.
It is called chess.
  #102  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:04 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post

FWIW, I think the wall is a good idea, a sound component of a comprehensive bordeer protected plan. It should be constructed. President Trump is, in concept, a blessing from God. In execution, his tactics are somewhat flawed.
At least an admission that a wall/barrier is necessary...

The left has never said there’s no money to allocate for it. They call it “ immoral “...lol. We all know know when the Left wants something, funds are the last thing they’re concerned with.
They just like bringing up Trumps campaign comments about Mexico paying for it. Obviously Mexico isn’t writing a check, But you can rest assured one way or another Trump will make it cost them directly or indirectly.

Arguing about funding is a diversion from the real reason...not accepting Trumps presidency/ admin is the real problem.

How much does one pregnant illegal giving birth and then we pay for them cost over twenty+ years? Then do the math. I’m guessing it won’t take long to get to 5.7 B.

How much damage can a handful of Muslim extremists do once they get here?

DHS caught and impounded a tractor trailer load of illegal fentanyl just yesterday valued at >50 million $. It was reported that the amount impounded could kill 50 million people.

Have we heard ANYTHING back from the left? Nope, but the clock is ticking.
How do you reason with the commie leftists who are Passing infanticide/ 3rd trimester abortions , and wanting 70% tax rates, free college and Medicare for all?

It’s getting to the time, to fish or cut bait.

Last edited by Plantar5; 01-31-2019 at 08:12 AM.
  #103  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:19 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Recently a Great Man said, A Wall is a Wall.

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Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
Arguing about funding is a diversion from the real reason...not accepting Trumps presidency/ admin is the real problem.
You are so correct. I think some folks here have a real case of PTDS... and they might not know it. They complicate the main issue with smoke and mirrors...
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  #104  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:20 AM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
It's a serious strategic and tactical error for Trump to use an EO to build a wall.

Just as Harry Reid made the same mistake in using the nuclear option to approve Obama court appointments.......Reps will rue the day that they allow Trump to use an EO. Once he does, theres nothing to prevent a future Democratic president from declaring a "gun violence" national emergency.......with God knows what kind of ramifications for us.

Use of an EO in this instance is a short sighted unforced error.
I have to agree with that. EO's are a double edged sword. Anyone remember Obama's EO regarding imported military surplus (M1 carbines)? Trump said he was going to recend everyone of Obama's EO's but somehow he forgot to recend that one as it's still enforce.
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 01-31-2019 at 09:00 AM.
  #105  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:33 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Not really at all....

EO's have been used by every president, Obama used them a lot too. There is no relationship or analogy btwn the number of votes the senate might use and a decision made by a single executive (POTUS).

Here are the numbers of EO's: Clinton 364, Bush 2 291, obama 276, Trump at 91.

Emergency conditions (EC) which sound like are a special class of EO, is a specific power given to the POTUS. They are especially applicable to his powers concerning our relationship with other governments. Hence it is a very legitimate and apropos tool to use on a border security issue - a border btwn 2 governments.

And there is already plenty of precedent to use POTUS emergency powers so P-Trump will not be breaking any new ground. Various presidents have used them in our history. One of the most memorable is the Japanese American interment camps after Pearl Harbor was bomb, by Lefty-POTUS Roosevelt.

Compared to that one above Trumps EO-E.C. will be a non-event of small consequence after a short time. He's building a freakin wall, LOL. It is only the lefty who has blown this way out of proportion.

As far as the lefty using the same tools, as I noted they already have. Will they use it for gun control some day, they sure would if it was politically viable, all the star's lined up, and if they think it would succeed in the courts. But it will have nothing to do with whether Trump decide to use it on the wall or not. Each EO-E.C. will be judged on its own merits by the courts when the other side files suite.

And the fact that P-Trump tried to get congress to address this emergency first and (if) they fail, increases the probability, even higher then it is already, that it will be upheld in the S.C. The Lefty suite will be frivolous, I can't imagine what the basis will be. "The wall is immoral/racist" or some such nutty thing.

Our POTUS knows exactly how to play this. Don't listen to the 2min analysis on the news, it is quite comical how ignorant (of law and history) some of the journalists are, even some of them on fox.
I dont recall any President claiming a national emergency....in this case an EC.....for something that his own party in power for 2 years,in all 3 branches, did NOT see as a national emergency. Typically an EO-EC is used for disaster relief....fire....hurricane.....flood..... It's not been used to accomplish something legislatively, let alone legislation that his own party didn't feel was a national emergency for the past 2 yrs.

If Trump does this....what is to keep the next liberal President (yes, there WILL be one at some point in time) from simply declaring "gun violence" as a "national emergency ", and issuing an EO stating "there will be no new guns manufactured"...? What safeguard would keep that from happening??? The 2A??? Hah!!! We already see politicians taking a big crap on the 2A.....so belief that the 2A would prevent such an EO is a Pollyanna view.

FWIW....Roosevelt's decision turned out to be a turd as well. Another blemish on our country's character.

Do I think we need additional walls along the border? It doesnt matter. There are legitimate legislative methods to achieve that goal. An EO/EC ain't one of them in my opinion.

This is bad strategy.....it's bad precedent. Republicans will rue the day if Trump goes that route.
  #106  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:42 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
You are so correct. I think some folks here have a real case of PTDS... and they might not know it. They complicate the main issue with smoke and mirrors...
Without a doubt HarryO45. Smoke and mirrors is all the left has.

What if Trump doesn’t declare a national emergency?

The left should be asked what their plan if Trump let’s another shutdown happen.?

Rather than a 3 week extension, it should’ve been 48 hours, because Congress has there thumbs you know where doing nothing as usual.
  #107  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:45 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
I dont recall any President claiming a national emergency....in this case an EC.....for something that his own party in power for 2 years,in all 3 branches, did NOT see as a national emergency. Typically an EO-EC is used for disaster relief....fire....hurricane.....flood..... It's not been used to accomplish something legislatively, let alone legislation that his own party didn't feel was a national emergency for the past 2 yrs.

If Trump does this....what is to keep the next liberal President (yes, there WILL be one at some point in time) from simply declaring "gun violence" as a "national emergency ", and issuing an EO stating "there will be no new guns manufactured"...? What safeguard would keep that from happening??? The 2A??? Hah!!! We already see politicians taking a big crap on the 2A.....so belief that the 2A would prevent such an EO is a Pollyanna view.

FWIW....Roosevelt's decision turned out to be a turd as well. Another blemish on our country's character.

Do I think we need additional walls along the border? It doesnt matter. There are legitimate legislative methods to achieve that goal. An EO/EC ain't one of them in my opinion.

This is bad strategy.....it's bad precedent. Republicans will rue the day if Trump goes that route.
I guess we just have different beliefs as I addressed all these points in my previous post -which is fine we can just leave it at that rather than keep repeating it...And like I said, comparing incarceration of American citizens as a reason to condemn all EO/ECs, well like I said, he's just building a wall. Whereas Roosevelt violated the constitution (although it was upheld oddly by SC, at least initially and for some amount of years), our POTUS is trying to enforce the constitution. Big difference. If he has to go this route, it will go very positively outside the far-lefty community.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-31-2019 at 08:51 AM.
  #108  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:53 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
I guess we just have different beliefs as I addressed all these points in my previous post -which is fine we can just leave it at that rather than keep repeating it...And like I said, comparing incarceration of American citizens as a reason to condemn all EO/ECs, well like I said, he's just building a wall. Whereas Roosevelt violated the constitution (although it was upheld oddly by SC, at least initially and for some amount of years), our POTUS is trying to enforce the constitution.
I'm not condemning all EO/EC's. They have their time and place.

You are correct. He's JUST building a wall. Which is why an EO/EC isn't appropriate in my opinion.
  #109  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:56 AM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
I agree with your assessment of strategy. When bluffing, sometimes you need the cards to back it... maybe not as good as represented, but still strong enough to win.
Oh yeah, Trumps in a poker game way over his head. Trying to bluff the high rollers is a waste of time. They just call your bluff and the odds usually catch up and you lose. That's whats happened here. Trumps been caught bluffing with a really bad hand. Trump would make a really lousy poker player. He's lost a lot of other peoples money.
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  #110  
Old 01-31-2019, 09:00 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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I agree with Otto.

Going around these Ding Dongs is not the way to confront this issue. He needs to go through them.
  #111  
Old 01-31-2019, 09:01 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
It is called chess.
Exactly, momentum has changed already, Lefty is now on the hook to make a fair deal with Rep. (No one is talking about lost pay checks anymore, that was "yesterday's" 60 second sound-byte). Chess master indeed!
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  #112  
Old 01-31-2019, 09:05 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
He's JUST building a wall. Which is why an EO/EC isn't appropriate in my opinion.
[QUxOTE=LostintheOzone;12727902]I have to agree with that. EO's are a double edged sword. Anyone remember Obama's EO regarding imported military surplus? Trump said he was going to resend everyone of Obama's EO's but somehow he forgot to resend that one as it's still enforce.[/QUOTE]

The person with the sword is the one who can easily break it. I am not convinced he will use it (or have to), but it is interesting to threaten it as a stratagem. I believe this President is the most likely leader in recent history who would be willing to toss it. But if this sword sits in a corner until the Libs take power than it is gonna remain sharp. I think the President has no problem dulling the blade.

What will the next Lib who carries the Sword do with it, if it is still available and sharp? They are gonna rip us a new one.

Once you got fire superiority - you use it, you don’t stop... you keep pushing. We are in a fight with fanatics. And we finally have the opportunity to use the big weapons. Momentum wins fights. How serious are we?

My analogy can be best explained with the US using the Abomb against the Japanese. We used it, and it has never again been “used that in way”.

The President is playing chess and he is our best chance.
  #113  
Old 01-31-2019, 09:32 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
Going around these Ding Dongs is not the way to confront this issue. He needs to go through them.
No disagreement, but How?

Making the alternative worse comes to mind.
  #114  
Old 01-31-2019, 10:39 AM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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I've been doing some research and I've come to conclusion that Trump has the authority to re-appropriate funds from various agencies to build a wall. I don't think everyone is in agreement with the legalities but Trump certainly has the option of declaring a nat'l emergency and directing dept heads to come forth with the money.

I still see a problem however with that tactic. The money in those budgets is there because that's where congress put it with the idea that it was to be spent on the itemized requests from those dept's. There was very little money itemized in any of those budgets for a wall. It isn't just free money waiting to be spent by the president on his personal projects. If there was a nat'l emergency of the magnitude that Trump claims there is, like 911 or Pearl Harbor, I can see congress going along for the ride but Trumps rationale is truly questionable. The Pentagon on Tuesday told Congress that building a wall at the U.S. border with Mexico is, in fact, not a national emergency.

OK, so congress got the pentagon, who is in charge of national defense, to claim there is no nat'l emergency on the border. They aren't operating in a military combat capacity.

https://qz.com/1536879/trump-border-...ells-congress/

The fact is the president’s own budget request for DHS in FY19 included only $1.6 billion for 65 new miles of border wall. He never even asked congress for it when he had the opportunity. Not exactly the chess player some claim him to be.


In effect, Trump is re-appropriating money that was earmarked by congress for something other than a wall. Those budgets are hard fought for by members of congress and they aren't going to be real happy when Trump starts raiding budgets to build a wall. If they don't agree with it's use, and most obviously don't, there's going to be some political backlash, some of it from the GOP.

I guess we'll see if Trump tries to use the atomic bomb on congress. I think it's time for the GOP to decide if they're going to let Trump hijack the pentagon and congress.
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 01-31-2019 at 10:59 AM.
  #115  
Old 01-31-2019, 12:02 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
I've been doing some research and I've come to conclusion that Trump has the authority to re-appropriate funds from various agencies to build a wall. I don't think everyone is in agreement with the legalities but Trump certainly has the option of declaring a nat'l emergency and directing dept heads to come forth with the money.

I still see a problem however with that tactic. The money in those budgets is there because that's where congress put it with the idea that it was to be spent on the itemized requests from those dept's. There was very little money itemized in any of those budgets for a wall. It isn't just free money waiting to be spent by the president on his personal projects. If there was a nat'l emergency of the magnitude that Trump claims there is, like 911 or Pearl Harbor, I can see congress going along for the ride but Trumps rationale is truly questionable. The Pentagon on Tuesday told Congress that building a wall at the U.S. border with Mexico is, in fact, not a national emergency.

OK, so congress got the pentagon, who is in charge of national defense, to claim there is no nat'l emergency on the border. They aren't operating in a military combat capacity.

https://qz.com/1536879/trump-border-...ells-congress/

The fact is the president’s own budget request for DHS in FY19 included only $1.6 billion for 65 new miles of border wall. He never even asked congress for it when he had the opportunity. Not exactly the chess player some claim him to be.


In effect, Trump is re-appropriating money that was earmarked by congress for something other than a wall. Those budgets are hard fought for by members of congress and they aren't going to be real happy when Trump starts raiding budgets to build a wall. If they don't agree with it's use, and most obviously don't, there's going to be some political backlash, some of it from the GOP.

I guess we'll see if Trump tries to use the atomic bomb on congress. I think it's time for the GOP to decide if they're going to let Trump hijack the pentagon and congress.
Well, at least through you research you are on board with the first point. And you've put out some good thoughts (atom bomb and hijack are not two of them, that is rather hyperbolic).

There is nothing hijacking about this if he uses it. First off he is following the law and constitution to a letter. There is a reason he gets to approve the congressional budget, because the framer's believe in divided powers and contrary to some posts here that doesn't mean Congress gets to do the budget without POTUS input. In fact, POTUS has the final say because the framers wanted exactly what P-Trump wants, fair negotiation.

Only a few GOP Never trumpers will be upset, he is otherwise getting a lot of support by his party.

I'm not surprised about what the pentagon said (not a threat to US security). First off they are talking about military encounters. Mexico per say is not a threat to us. But they are not addressing the issue which include policing, drug-smuggling, border-patrol issue, human trafficking, illegals', etc...2nd, I'd bet the pentagon is mostly obama leftovers, so they would never say there is a crisis on the boarder.

It will have its day in court, and each side will make their case. POTUS has a lot going for him, more frequent and larger and larger caravan's, what are we suppose to do with all these people (rhetorical). And it is only going to get worse. And he also has the Border patrol leadership on his side. This will turn out to be an easy win in the SC, I predict. There is little basis for a suit because he is within his bounds...Think of all the negative press and insanity when he issued the so called "Muslim" ban. But it was supported by the S.C. Again because it is within his lawful bounds.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-31-2019 at 12:23 PM.
  #116  
Old 01-31-2019, 01:53 PM
MG1912 MG1912 is offline
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Originally Posted by John Joseph View Post
Gov't employee or not, keeping a monetary reserve to pay bills and buy food should be at the top of the list, as is having a back up job skill.
What else can you add?
That's the lesson I drew from this, too. Nobody's job is 100% "secure," not even federal government employees. Everyone should have an emergency fund of at least 3 months' worth of expenses in a savings account.

And always have a plan B. I'm sure if I had been one of those poor folks from the other side of the planet planning their once-in-a-lifetime trip to the United States to visit the great national parks, lol... the last thing I would have considered was the possibility of the parks being closed due to a government shutdown. But it happens. Always have a plan B. If the parks are closed (by a government shutdown or an alien invasion or whatever), have a plan B for your trip.
  #117  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:12 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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That's the lesson I drew from this, too. Nobody's job is 100% "secure," not even federal government employees. Everyone should have an emergency fund of at least 3 months' worth of expenses in a savings account......
Emergency fund???? We have a national debt of $21 Trillion. That's Trillion.....with a capital "T".......and we are adding to that at a rate of another $.75T every year.

$5.7B here......$5.7B there...... Pretty soon we'll be talking about real money.
  #118  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:51 PM
MG1912 MG1912 is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
Emergency fund???? We have a national debt of $21 Trillion. That's Trillion.....with a capital "T".......and we are adding to that at a rate of another $.75T every year.

$5.7B here......$5.7B there...... Pretty soon we'll be talking about real money.
I don't get your comment. Are you saying one should not have an emergency fund?
  #119  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:16 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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I don't get your comment. Are you saying one should not have an emergency fund?
I don't think thats what he's saying at all. He's only pointing out that the Federal government has been operating in the red for decades- and it happened a "trivial" billon dollars here, a billion dollars there....
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  #120  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:23 PM
MG1912 MG1912 is offline
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I don't think thats what he's saying at all. He's only pointing out that the Federal government has been operating in the red for decades- and it happened a "trivial" billon dollars here, a billion dollars there....
Ok... but what does that have to do with an individual having an emergency fund?

Last edited by MG1912; 01-31-2019 at 05:25 PM.
  #121  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:41 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by MG1912 View Post
Ok... but what does that have to do with an individual having an emergency fund?
I'd suggest that it illustrates the difference between the government and the individual- the former has been in the red for decades, the latter cannot function like that for long. Sure the individual can pile up debt, but in short order, nobody will extend him credit if he isn't paying the bills- and it takes years to clear up.

Both typically start with spending "trivial" amounts that they don't have...

However, thats just my interpretation of the observation- I wonder presume to speak for another
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  #122  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:55 PM
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STORM2 STORM2 is offline
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Topic?

Last edited by STORM2; 01-31-2019 at 05:57 PM.
  #123  
Old 01-31-2019, 06:00 PM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Think of all the negative press and insanity when he issued the so called "Muslim" ban. But it was supported by the S.C. Again because it is within his lawful bounds.
I never thought he would win that one to be honest. You could be right about SC ruling in his favor, I never know what they're going to do. Kind of like watching a horse race and picking the first 5 horses over the finish line.

I honestly don't think Trump is going to use the nat'l emergency EO. I think he will do whatever the bipartisan committee comes up with. Nobody in congress wants another shutdown. They will probably just pass a bill with some money for a wall, whatever he asked for in his budget (1.6B or whatever it was) and put it on his desk. I think he'll sign it. If he vetoes they will probably override.

That's my take on it.
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