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  #76  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:56 PM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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And that is exactly why the left doesn't want the wall (as Plantar mentioned) because they want open border's.
That isn't true. Their voting history doesn't support that as MulVaney has said. The socialists will vote for more border security. They have in the past and they will again but they aren't going to let Trump off the hook any time soon. He's put himself in a precarious fix and the socialists know it. He has to get that wall or it's adios amigo. That's what this funding fight is all about. It isn't about the 5B, it's about turning Trumps base against him. Some of the natives are already getting restless. When Fox news starts criticizing Trump you know he screwed up.

By the way, I think Trump has found a very capable COF in MulVaney who can actually think his way thru a bad situation. I like that guy.

I guess we'll have to see what Trumps next move is. I don't think congress is going to fund his wall. Bad deal for Trump.
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 01-29-2019 at 07:10 PM.
  #77  
Old 01-30-2019, 04:57 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
That isn't true. Their voting history doesn't support that as MulVaney has said. The socialists will vote for more border security. These have in the past and they will again but they aren't going to let Trump off the hook any time soon. He's put himself in a precarious fix and the socialists know it. He has to get that wall or it's adios amigo. That's what this funding fight is all about. It isn't about the 5B, it's about turning Trumps base against him. Some of the natives are already getting restless. When Fox news starts criticizing Trump you know he screwed up.

By the way, I think Trump has found a very capable COF in MulVaney who can actually think his way thru a bad situation. I like that guy.

I guess we'll have to see what Trumps next move is. I don't think congress is going to fund his wall. Bad deal for Trump.
Three points,

Scenario 1: Not correct at all, despite what the popular-press/talking-heads/Ann C. say's, the base is not going to turn against him in 2020 even (if) he doesn't build a wall. These anti-trumper's are just using yet another incident as a way to predict doom and gloom for P-Trump. One more in an extremely long line of dire prediction's in the last 3 years which are always wrong. They "wish" so hard, they believe their own propaganda. "Oh yea, I'm a Trump supporter but I am going to vote for Elizabeth W. (or some other Socialist) because Trump tried everything but couldn't get 5B$. Or maybe I'll stay home to spite him. I don't care if the country goes down the tube's again with Socialist, as long as my butt hurt is satisfied". Anyone believing this scenario needs to come back to reality...And even the trump-hater's on the right aren't going to throw him under the buss. "Hum, he didn't get the wall, so I'll vote for a Socialist - I don't care if the Socialists appoints a couple of ultra-lefty SC judges." These are all dreams of fantasy by the Trump-Hater's. Even Ann C. will get over her butt hurt by then -LOL!

Scenario 2: He is going to get his "wall" one way or another. You can hope and dream all you want that he doesn't but he has the justification and means to do it. His EO will hold in the S.C. because it is such a reasonable and no-brainier request. It may be held in the courts for a year, doesn't change a thing, still plenty of time before 2020 election.

On Nancy, she is blocking the wall (not only) because of Trump (although that is part of it), but also because the Dem's have moved much further left now than even a few years ago and want open border's more now than ever. Why do you think Trump won some of the lefty states - because the Dem's have gone too far with their policies in 2016 and are really going to go even further nutty in 2020 ("Free-Everything, for Everyone, Citizen or not"). And this move further left will help keep P-Trump in office in 2020.

People have been predicting his demise for so long and have been wrong so long because their Trump-Derangement-Syndrome is blocking their critical-thinking skills (for those Lefties who even had any to begin with).
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-30-2019 at 06:55 AM.
  #78  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:32 AM
John Joseph John Joseph is online now
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Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
There’s no question the wrong people had their paychecks held up imho, which is why nothing got done for more than a month.

But What does anyone do when they’re met with an unexpected expense?
That's the scenario I'm concerned about.
Living paycheck to paycheck seems to be the norm,
That's a tight spot to get out of, even for well paid government employees.
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  #79  
Old 01-30-2019, 09:54 AM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Scenario 1: Not correct at all, despite what the popular-press/talking-heads/Ann C. say's, the base is not going to turn against him in 2020 even (if) he doesn't build a wall. These anti-trumper's are just using yet another incident as a way to predict doom and gloom for P-Trump. One more in an extremely long line of dire prediction's in the last 3 years which are always wrong. They "wish" so hard, they believe their own propaganda. "Oh yea, I'm a Trump supporter but I am going to vote for Elizabeth W. (or some other Socialist) because Trump tried everything but couldn't get 5B$. Or maybe I'll stay home to spite him. I don't care if the country goes down the tube's again with Socialist, as long as my butt hurt is satisfied". Anyone believing this scenario needs to come back to reality...And even the trump-hater's on the right aren't going to throw him under the buss. "Hum, he didn't get the wall, so I'll vote for a Socialist - I don't care if the Socialists appoints a couple of ultra-lefty SC judges." These are all dreams of fantasy by the Trump-Hater's. Even Ann C. will get over her butt hurt by then -LOL!
We don't even know who's running in 2020. That one's a little far fetched. Trumps popularity is lower right now than any previous president in modern times. He may have strong support within his base but his base aren't the only people that vote. That was apparent in the mid terms. Trump was probably the likely cause that the socialists scored big in the house. I know it's the reason we don't have anymore money for border security.





Quote:
Scenario 2: He is going to get his "wall" one way or another. You can hope and dream all you want that he doesn't but he has the justification and means to do it. His EO will hold in the S.C. because it is such a reasonable and no-brainier request. It may be held in the courts for a year, doesn't change a thing, still plenty of time before 2020 election.
His EO may hold but by the time the SC resolves the issue of the EO Trump won't have a lot of time left unless he's reelected. The Muslim travel ban went thru the courts for 17 months and this won't be any different. There will be law suits filed in three district courts because that's where the wall would be built. Those all have to run their course before the SC will hear the case, if they hear it. Only 1% of appeals make it to the SC. The Gov't still can't take private property without going thru the courts in an eminent domain procedure. Those take a year or two. 70% of the land along the border is privately owned. The fed could start those now but I haven't heard of any in the works. I doubt the fed would be spending any money on property without a green light from the district court saying they could build a wall. And even if they did a SC ruling could reverse it. Besides, there's no money from congress to buy any land anyway.

The bottom line is Trump's EO may be upheld by the SC just like the Muslim travel ban, but I don't think Trump has 18 months to wait on a SC decision, do you? Probably why he hasn't taken that option yet. The courts is a long shot for a wall.
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 01-30-2019 at 11:16 AM.
  #80  
Old 01-30-2019, 10:11 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
His EO may hold but by the time the SC resolves the issue of the EO Trump won't have a lot of time left unless he's reelected. The Muslim travel ban went thru the courts for 17 months and this won't be any different. There will be law suits filed in three district courts because that's where the wall would be built. Those all have to run their course before the SC will hear the case. The Gov't still can't take private property without going thru the courts in an eminent domain procedure. Those take a year or two. The fed could start those now but I haven't heard of any in the works. I doubt the fed would be spending any money on property without a green light from the district court saying they could build a wall. And even if they did a SC ruling could reverse it.

The bottom line is Trump's EO may be upheld by the SC just like the Muslim travel ban, but I don't think Trump has 18 months to wait on a SC decision, do you? Probably why he hasn't taken that option yet. The courts is a long shot.
Court is NOT a long shot. It is a high-probability outcome in his favor. The Muslim ban was full of accusations of discrimination and he still won...Are they going to say a "Wall" is discriminatory, they will be laughed out of court. What basis will the lefty have for the suite, it will be obviously frivolous. He has a lot of options, expedite it through the lower courts, ignore the lower court rulings and continue building until S.C. hearing, etc. Even if he has to wait a year, it doesn't change a thing (you want to say 18 months fine, still dosn't change anything), it will be well on the way before the election. Nobody is going to hold a court delay against POTUS. In fact, POTUS can use the lefty's frivolous suite as another campaign talking point for 2020: "Lefty's want open border's and crime so bad they wasted the S.C.'s time with a frivolous suite".
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-30-2019 at 10:14 AM.
  #81  
Old 01-30-2019, 10:17 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Just in my e-mail, see what I mean :-):

From Trump org:
Democrats have become incredibly UNHINGED in the past couple of months.

They claim they want border security, and they claim they care about your safety, but they have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to prove that. They won’t even meet at the White House to negotiate!

The Democrat way is very simple: complain, obstruct, do nothing to help America, and then ask for your vote 2 years later. NO MORE!

Liberal Mega Donors are already maxing out to the Democrats, so I’m calling on my best supporters to help us CRUSH our goal and start 2019 off strong.

With our FIRST end-of-month deadline of 2019 in just ONE DAY, please make a contribution of ANY AMOUNT and it will be TRIPLE-MATCHED.
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  #82  
Old 01-30-2019, 11:31 AM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Court is NOT a long shot. It is a high-probability outcome in his favor. The Muslim ban was full of accusations of discrimination and he still won...Are they going to say a "Wall" is discriminatory, they will be laughed out of court. What basis will the lefty have for the suite, it will be obviously frivolous. He has a lot of options, expedite it through the lower courts, ignore the lower court rulings and continue building until S.C. hearing, etc. Even if he has to wait a year, it doesn't change a thing (you want to say 18 months fine, still dosn't change anything), it will be well on the way before the election. Nobody is going to hold a court delay against POTUS. In fact, POTUS can use the lefty's frivolous suite as another campaign talking point for 2020: "Lefty's want open border's and crime so bad they wasted the S.C.'s time with a frivolous suite".
I guess we'll know in a few days if Trump turns to the courts.

I've had projects held up for years in court. If you say that isn't possible I'll yield to your project experience, but everything I've seen in my 30 years of road construction indicates otherwise. I've seen many projects abandoned because of court decisions and delay. The money was spent elsewhere.
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 01-30-2019 at 12:10 PM.
  #83  
Old 01-30-2019, 04:46 PM
CyberDyneSystems CyberDyneSystems is offline
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  #84  
Old 01-30-2019, 06:58 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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It's a serious strategic and tactical error for Trump to use an EO to build a wall.

Just as Harry Reid made the same mistake in using the nuclear option to approve Obama court appointments.......Reps will rue the day that they allow Trump to use an EO. Once he does, theres nothing to prevent a future Democratic president from declaring a "gun violence" national emergency.......with God knows what kind of ramifications for us.

Use of an EO in this instance is a short sighted unforced error.
  #85  
Old 01-30-2019, 07:22 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
It's a serious strategic and tactical error for Trump to use an EO to build a wall.

Just as Harry Reid made the same mistake in using the nuclear option to approve Obama court appointments.......Reps will rue the day that they allow Trump to use an EO. Once he does, theres nothing to prevent a future Democratic president from declaring a "gun violence" national emergency.......with God knows what kind of ramifications for us.

Use of an EO in this instance is a short sighted unforced error.
Obviously an EO is not the ideal way to resolve the border issue, but, so where does leave the country at the border? Do nothing? Drones? I haven’t heard anything realistic from anyone/anywhere.

Gun emergency declaration aside, ( which to me is apples and oranges) but I get your point; Then what’s the likelihood and the mechanism to dis - incentivize illegals so that maybe at a point there would be less of an attraction to come here illegally?
  #86  
Old 01-30-2019, 07:35 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
It's a serious strategic and tactical error for Trump to use an EO to build a wall.

Just as Harry Reid made the same mistake in using the nuclear option to approve Obama court appointments.......Reps will rue the day that they allow Trump to use an EO. Once he does, theres nothing to prevent a future Democratic president from declaring a "gun violence" national emergency.......with God knows what kind of ramifications for us.

Use of an EO in this instance is a short sighted unforced error.
An EO won't build a $5.8B wall... an EO CANNOT appropriate funds. It can direct CBP to do so, but only using current allocated funds. Given the ~$3B annually CBP budget, it would require a 100% closure of CBP to do in 2 years- turn out the lights, lock the doors, and fire everyone, from the director to the newest clerk.... even over 10 years, its about 20% of the CBP budget, each and every year, for a decade. What gets cut, what training is scrapped, how many flight hours are canceled, who gets fired...?
  #87  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:09 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
An EO won't build a $5.8B wall... an EO CANNOT appropriate funds. It can direct CBP to do so, but only using current allocated funds. Given the ~$3B annually CBP budget, it would require a 100% closure of CBP to do in 2 years- turn out the lights, lock the doors, and fire everyone, from the director to the newest clerk.... even over 10 years, its about 20% of the CBP budget, each and every year, for a decade. What gets cut, what training is scrapped, how many flight hours are canceled, who gets fired...?
Exactly. People forget that Congress holds the purse strings. Which is another reason why an EO is the wrong approach.

I was simply pointing out the Strategic Stupidity of such a move. It's Classic "Win the Battle, Lose the War".
  #88  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:13 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
Exactly. People forget that Congress holds the purse strings. Which is another reason why an EO is the wrong approach.

I was simply pointing out the Strategic Stupidity of such a move. It's Classic "Win the Battle, Lose the War".
I agree with your assessment of strategy. When bluffing, sometimes you need the cards to back it... maybe not as good as represented, but still strong enough to win.
  #89  
Old 01-30-2019, 09:48 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
It's a serious strategic and tactical error for Trump to use an EO to build a wall.

Just as Harry Reid made the same mistake in using the nuclear option to approve Obama court appointments.......Reps will rue the day that they allow Trump to use an EO. Once he does, theres nothing to prevent a future Democratic president from declaring a "gun violence" national emergency.......with God knows what kind of ramifications for us.

Use of an EO in this instance is a short sighted unforced error.
Not really at all....

EO's have been used by every president, Obama used them a lot too. There is no relationship or analogy btwn the number of votes the senate might use and a decision made by a single executive (POTUS).

Here are the numbers of EO's: Clinton 364, Bush 2 291, obama 276, Trump at 91.

Emergency conditions (EC) which sound like are a special class of EO, is a specific power given to the POTUS. They are especially applicable to his powers concerning our relationship with other governments. Hence it is a very legitimate and apropos tool to use on a border security issue - a border btwn 2 governments.

And there is already plenty of precedent to use POTUS emergency powers so P-Trump will not be breaking any new ground. Various presidents have used them in our history. One of the most memorable is the Japanese American interment camps after Pearl Harbor was bomb, by Lefty-POTUS Roosevelt.

Compared to that one above Trumps EO-E.C. will be a non-event of small consequence after a short time. He's building a freakin wall, LOL. It is only the lefty who has blown this way out of proportion.

As far as the lefty using the same tools, as I noted they already have. Will they use it for gun control some day, they sure would if it was politically viable, all the star's lined up, and if they think it would succeed in the courts. But it will have nothing to do with whether Trump decide to use it on the wall or not. Each EO-E.C. will be judged on its own merits by the courts when the other side files suite.

And the fact that P-Trump tried to get congress to address this emergency first and (if) they fail, increases the probability, even higher then it is already, that it will be upheld in the S.C. The Lefty suite will be frivolous, I can't imagine what the basis will be. "The wall is immoral/racist" or some such nutty thing.

Our POTUS knows exactly how to play this. Don't listen to the 2min analysis on the news, it is quite comical how ignorant (of law and history) some of the journalists are, even some of them on fox.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-30-2019 at 10:09 PM.
  #90  
Old 01-30-2019, 10:02 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Not really at all....

EO's have been used by every president, Obama used them a lot too. There is no relationship or analogy btwn the number of votes the senate might use and a decision made by a single executive (POTUS).

Here are the numbers of EO's: Clinton 364, Bush 2 291, obama 276, Trump at 91.

Emergency conditions (EC) which sound like are a special class of EO, is a specific power given to the POTUS. They are especially applicable to his powers concerning our relationship with other governments. Hence it is a very legitimate and apropos tool to use on a border security issue - a border btwn 2 governments.

And there is already plenty of precedent to use POTUS emergency powers so P-Trump will not be breaking any new ground. Various presidents have used them in our history. One of the most memorable is the Japanese American interment camps after Pearl Harbor was bomb, by Lefty-POTUS Roosevelt.

Compared to that one above Trumps EO-E.C. will be a non-event of small consequence after a short time. He's building a freakin wall, LOL. It is only the lefty who has blown this way out of proportion.

As far as the lefty using the same tools, as I noted they already have. Will they use it for gun control some day, they sure would if they think it would succeed in the courts, but it will have nothing to do with Trump's decision on the wall. Each EO-E.C. will be judged on its own merits by the courts when the other side files suite.
Numbers of EOs by administration mean nothing. The cost, and funding source, of those EOs DO matter. President Trump is demand $5.8B for a wall. Assuming that number is reasonably accurate, no EO can generally that kind of money without compelling the agegcy or department whose budget has to execute it.

To break it on down, if I, as Chief Executive, with lawful authority, told you, as an individual subject to that authority, that you had to put up $500M, in cash, for a project, in 90 days- odds are you couldn't do it.
You can't squeeze blood from a stone. The $s aren't accessible.
  #91  
Old 01-30-2019, 10:12 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Numbers of EOs by administration mean nothing. The cost, and funding source, of those EOs DO matter. President Trump is demand $5.8B for a wall. Assuming that number is reasonably accurate, no EO can generally that kind of money without compelling the agegcy or department whose budget has to execute it.

To break it on down, if I, as Chief Executive, with lawful authority, told you, as an individual subject to that authority, that you had to put up $500M, in cash, for a project, in 90 days- odds are you couldn't do it.
You can't squeeze blood from a stone. The $s aren't accessible.
His administration has already reported they found the available funds in various departments. The available fund's exceed $5.8B.

Its a done deal if he has to go down that path. POTUS has all bases covered.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-30-2019 at 10:18 PM.
  #92  
Old 01-30-2019, 10:19 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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His administration has already reported they found the available funds in various departments. The available fund's exceed $5.8B.

Its a done deal if he has to go down that path.
How many dollars, by department or agency? EO cannon transfer $ from one departure to another. He can't take X amount from CBP, Y amount from DoJ, and Z amount from DoD... the primary department response for tbe EO action is the sole, legal funding solution for a non appropriated EO.
  #93  
Old 01-30-2019, 10:21 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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How many dollars, by department or agency? EO cannon transfer $ from one departure to another. He can't take X amount from CBP, Y amount from DoJ, and Z amount from DoD... the primary department response for tbe EO action is the sole, legal funding solution for a non appropriated EO.
Are you joking now, LOL, why don't you do some of your own research if you want such a detailed accounting.
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  #94  
Old 01-30-2019, 10:29 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Are you joking now, LOL, why don't you do some of your own research if you want such a detailed accounting.
You're the one claim in that the money is there- cite your source- like any high school student would need to do....
  #95  
Old 01-30-2019, 10:36 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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You're the one claim in that the money is there- cite your source- like any high school student would need to do....
His Chief of Staff reported it on Fox.

So now you are up...
As a Trump hater if you are so eager to see him fail, why don't you call the white house and see if they will provide those department-by-department details (you desire) to you so you can prove your point. Even a lazy junior high school student would take some initiative, lets see if you can make junior high grade.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-30-2019 at 10:43 PM.
  #96  
Old 01-30-2019, 10:44 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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As Trump hater if you are so eager to see him fail, why don't you call the white house and see if they will provide those department-by-department details to you so you can prove your point. Even a lazy junior high school student would take some initiative, lets see if you can make junior high grade.
Back to the name calling- shocking. I'm not a "Trump hater". I thanked God daily that he's in the White House, and that he succeeds. I'm also an analytical, critical thinker, that has a fundamental understanding of governance processes.
YOU claim that the $ is there, that its a done deal. From what source other than soundbites from right wing blogs? YOU made the claim HERE- its time to put up or shut up. Cite a legitimate source that supports your claim....

Last edited by wccountryboy; 01-30-2019 at 10:47 PM.
  #97  
Old 01-30-2019, 10:50 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Back to the name calling- shocking. I'm not a "Trump hater". I thanked God daisy that he's in the White House, and that he succeeds. I'm also an analytical, critical thinker, that has a fundamental underlying of governance processes.
YOU claim that the $ is there, that its a done deal. From what source other than soundbites from right wing blogs? YOU made the claim HERE- its time to put up or shut up. Cite a legitimate source that supports your claim....
You started with the innuendo just like you always do.

As usual, your thinking as well as your language is banal and parochial.

And I see you can't even contribute to the thread commensurate with a lazy junior high student. Rather than be a contributor, you rather get into a spat.

You really are quite comical.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-30-2019 at 10:54 PM.
  #98  
Old 01-30-2019, 11:04 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,450
Brilliant response. YOU made the claim heare that it was a done deal, the money was there... yet you're unwillingly to suppress that claim with sourced fact. The peak of intellectual laziness, just white noise.

The difference between you and I is that when I introduce new or exceptional information, I source it. I usually multi source it- and leave the reader to mak3 his own conclusion. YOU make a claim, and expect everyone to accept your word on its own, without any supporting information or sources..
The CoS is not a source, just a mouthpiece for his boss....

FWIW, I think the wall is a good idea, a sound component of a comprehensive bordeer protected plan. It should be constructed. President Trump is, in concept, a blessing from God. In execution, his tactics are somewhat flawed.
  #99  
Old 01-30-2019, 11:09 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Brilliant response. YOU made the claim heare that it was a done deal, the money was there... yet you're unwillingly to suppress that claim with sourced fact. The peak of intellectual laziness, just white noise.

The difference between you and I is that when I introduce new or exceptional information, I source it. I usually multi source it- and leave the reader to mak3 his own conclusion. YOU make a claim, and expect everyone to accept your word on its own, without any supporting information or sources..
The CoS is not a source, just a mouthpiece for his boss....

FWIW, I think the wall is a good idea, a sound component of a comprehensive bordeer protected plan. It should be constructed. President Trump is, in concept, a blessing from God. In execution, his tactics are somewhat flawed.
YOU ARE NOT paying attention or you just like to argue over nonsense. His Chief of Staff reported it on fox, if you don't want to believe it that is your problem. If you have no faith in the Chief of Staff, that is also your problem.

And to think they are going to publish exactly which departments they are getting exactly what amounts is just ignorant. If this info is important to you you SHOULD call the white house and see if they will give it to you...If you are on his side Great, you can give him some free advise with all your self-proclaimed brilliance!
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-30-2019 at 11:18 PM.
  #100  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:12 AM
Xennial Xennial is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 14
Learned that there are a lot of whiners just showing up to work, milking the system, then blowing their paychecks. My first job out of college went through 3 big layoffs within 5 years. Stressful AH but reinforces the fact you need at least 6 months of income in savings. If you don’t have it or don’t earn enough get a 2nd job. I hope the shutdown continues, indefinitely if possible.
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