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  #51  
Old 01-28-2019, 08:33 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
Why does everyone keep equating Trump with Obama? I don't get that.

If congress controls the funds then you have to get congress to appropriate the funds. It's no different than going to the bank for a loan. If you try to extort the funds from the bank you either aren't going to get them or at some point someone is going to find out and you get charged for fraud like Cohen did. Never a good idea to lie or maybe that isn't a value anymore, I don't know. Trump made enemies with the bankers from day one. Big mistake cause now he's setting there with his johnson in his hand wondering if he can declare a nat'l emergency and get it past the courts. Who knows, he might be able to but just the fact that he can't pull the trigger tells me he's stalling. Maybe some people told him it wasn't a good idea which it probably isn't. Getting it tied up in court for a year or two doesn't get your project built.

I've dealt with a few projects that had to go through the courts and it adds about 2 years to contract/mobilization. Trump doesn't have two years. He's already squandered two years to get to no from the bank (congress). Now he's looking to the courts. He may not have funding issues with a nat'l emergency but he has environmental groups that are waiting to take him to court. You know they just didn't just disappear when he became president. Ryan Zinke (Interior) resigned when he had to start paying attorneys to defend his unethical real estate deals. If you don't think the courts can delay or kill a project you just haven't been involved with any road construction.

Trump is running out of time to deliver his promised wall. If you can't score in the first half why would anyone think you're going to win in the game in the second half?

People are making money betting he won't. Limbaugh, Coulter, and others. They made money betting he would get elected, now they're making money betting he can't deliver. That's the political commentary biz. Coulter isn't the only one writing books. I think Trump wrote one also when he started to get politically motivated.
So your solution is to abandon having any degree of a secure border?

Your answer is to blame Trump for what the GOP failed to do?

The shutdown was a direct result of the ongoing revenge politics which is ongoing and as you say has done nothing but waste time and money to the detriment of working people, orchestrated by the left, not Trump.
  #52  
Old 01-28-2019, 08:53 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
So your solution is to abandon having any degree of a secure border?

Your answer is to blame Trump for what the GOP failed to do?

The shutdown was a direct result of the ongoing revenge politics which is ongoing and as you say has done nothing but waste time and money to the detriment of working people, orchestrated by the left, not Trump.
Spot on, what our friend is missing because he is so eager to see POTUS fail, is that once Trump agreed to the pause on Friday, he is no longer in the spotlight for 3 weeks. Nancy and her crew are now looking more and more petty every day which passes, because everyone knows wall's work and the price tag is a pittance when it comes to federal budget's. It is no longer about who is holding up people's paycheck's, it is all about Nancy's spite. And each day which passes will bring this out more. Nancy's people are starting to walk away from her as reasonable American's in both parties are focus more and more on her spite...As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for, and Nancy and Chuck got what they wanted and are now in the spotlight to come up with a fair deal with the Republican's...But this simple "jujitsu" move by P-Trump and how it enhances his position is beyond the understanding of people who don't think past the routine-talking points found on the news channels.

President Trump could bag his deal in 3 week. If not he will prevail with his E.O., the money is already been identified. Either way he wins, and America wins this one. The lefty may sue him over the EO, but on what basis, he has the authority, the legislator's couldn't come up with a deal, he has the $$$ in other departments, the latest 18,000 strong caravan (and already another one planned in Feb.) is proof it is a crisis. And the Border-Potrol Leadership says they need a wall. This entire attempted-block by Nancy is a joke, and her lawyer's will be laughed out of the Supreme Court.
"Your justices, we are suing the POTUS because we don't like walls". The entire thing is rather comical.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-28-2019 at 09:20 PM.
  #53  
Old 01-28-2019, 10:42 PM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
So your solution is to abandon having any degree of a secure border?

Your answer is to blame Trump for what the GOP failed to do?

The shutdown was a direct result of the ongoing revenge politics which is ongoing and as you say has done nothing but waste time and money to the detriment of working people, orchestrated by the left, not Trump.
No to your first question. Here's the solution. They could throw this gear up in a month.

https://www.wired.com/story/palmer-l...l-border-wall/

We can't wait for 2 years for a court case. 2000 Border patrol jobs are unfilled because of low pay and benefits. BP needs higher pay and better benefits for the conditions they have to work in. I lived down there for 16 years and you aren't going to get people to work on that border year round paying them 58K a year. That's like working in a furnace in the summer.

Yes to your second question. Trump can't do a damned thing without congress. That means he has to somehow convince the GOP and some dems to increase border security. Congress doesn't want a wall. That should be obvious to just about everyone. He's driving square pegs into round holes. All that wall has done is shut down the gov't and shut down any money appropriated for border security. Not only do we not have a wall, we don't have any funding for anything even related to more border security.

And I agree with you about the revenge politics. The socialists are trying to bury Trump. The socialists have voted for walls before so it's apparent that they just don't want Trumps wall.

I think a lot of this is backlash from Trump politics and his rhetoric during the campaign. Trump didn't want to play nice with anyone, even the GOP, so now he doesn't have the political capital to pull off the thing that matters to him the most. His own fault.
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 01-28-2019 at 10:48 PM.
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  #54  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:24 AM
rhjeepdriver rhjeepdriver is online now
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
1. That Congress has fully capitulated their responsibility to pass budgets and pass spending bills to the Office of the President. This is a complete abdication of their constitutional responsibilities.

2. That the country is being run by idiots, regardless of which party they claim to represent.
Winner !
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  #55  
Old 01-29-2019, 07:46 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is online now
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Spot on, what our friend is missing because he is so eager to see POTUS fail, is that once Trump agreed to the pause on Friday, he is no longer in the spotlight for 3 weeks. Nancy and her crew are now looking more and more petty every day which passes, because everyone knows wall's work and the price tag is a pittance when it comes to federal budget's. It is no longer about who is holding up people's paycheck's, it is all about Nancy's spite. And each day which passes will bring this out more. Nancy's people are starting to walk away from her as reasonable American's in both parties are focus more and more on her spite...As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for, and Nancy and Chuck got what they wanted and are now in the spotlight to come up with a fair deal with the Republican's...But this simple "jujitsu" move by P-Trump and how it enhances his position is beyond the understanding of people who don't think past the routine-talking points found on the news channels.

President Trump could bag his deal in 3 week. If not he will prevail with his E.O., the money is already been identified. Either way he wins, and America wins this one. The lefty may sue him over the EO, but on what basis, he has the authority, the legislator's couldn't come up with a deal, he has the $$$ in other departments, the latest 18,000 strong caravan (and already another one planned in Feb.) is proof it is a crisis. And the Border-Potrol Leadership says they need a wall. This entire attempted-block by Nancy is a joke, and her lawyer's will be laughed out of the Supreme Court.
"Your justices, we are suing the POTUS because we don't like walls". The entire thing is rather comical.
Great post. Like someone said earlier, President Trump is playing chess.
  #56  
Old 01-29-2019, 08:31 AM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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because everyone knows wall's work and the price tag is a pittance when it comes to federal budget's.
Here is hard proof that walls don't work.

https://youtu.be/EpnFyLxr1qQ

Do you want to pay 25B for this?
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 01-29-2019 at 08:35 AM.
  #57  
Old 01-29-2019, 09:02 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
Here is hard proof that walls don't work.

https://youtu.be/EpnFyLxr1qQ

Do you want to pay 25B for this?
You can't be that disingenuous where you don't understand that without that barrier to slow them down, these illegals would likely never been captured. This video actually proves that walls work if you can get past the 10 seconds of the video of them going over it...Now multiply those few by thousands who are in the process of storming the boarder - coming soon - with nothing to slow them down. But I don't think you are being disingenuous per se my friend, but you are not using your critical thinking skills (which you accuse Trump supporter's of not using) because the "Wall" is a "Dog-whistle" call to you, invoking a programmed dogmatic response Pavlov would be proud of.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-29-2019 at 09:27 AM.
  #58  
Old 01-29-2019, 09:27 AM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
You can't be that disingenuous where you don't understand that without that barrier to slow them down, these illegals would likely never been captured. This video actually proves that walls work if you can get past the 10 seconds of the video of them going over it...Now multiply those few by thousands who are in the process of storming the boarder - coming soon - with nothing to slow them down. You're not using your critical thinking skills (which you accuse Trump supporter's of not using) because the "Wall" is a "Dog-whistle" call to you, invoking a programmed dogmatic response Pavlov would be proud of.
How do you think the BP knew where to pick them up? That was an infrared camera that recorded that whole thing. Slow them down? Nope. They just wait for the BP to give them a ride once they get over. Most of them aren't running drugs anyway, they're seeking asylum. Best way to do that is just turn yourself over to BP. Why do you think they were all just standing around like they were waiting for a bus? They know about catch and release. They also know that being in BP custody is a hell of a sight better than dying in the desert. A lot of them call the BP once they get over.

If the wall is such a great idea why didn't a GOP congress fund it?
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 01-29-2019 at 10:31 AM.
  #59  
Old 01-29-2019, 09:52 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
How do you think the BP knew where to pick them up? That was an infrared camera that recorded that whole thing. Slow them down? Nope. They just wait for the BP to give them a ride once they get over. Most of them aren't running drugs anyway, they're seeking asylum. Best way to do that is just turn yourself over to BP. Why do you think they were all just standing around like they were waiting for a bus? They know about catch and release. They also know that being in BP custody is a hell of a sight better than dying in the desert. A lot of them call the BP once they get over.
There is just no logic in your argument. "The wall will not stop everyone, so let's eliminate it so we stop no-one at all". That is like saying we can't stop all crime in this country, so lets just stop fighting crime.

The laws need to change also. But if you can't stop them, changing the laws will not be effective. These are all things which need to be done to fix the problem. And building the wall is the easiest of all these components.

Just look at the last caravan, the only way they stopped them from storming across was with bob-wire (a barrier) and tear gas.

+Border Security leadership says they need the wall to do their job, that is quite an endorsement!
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-29-2019 at 10:01 AM.
  #60  
Old 01-29-2019, 10:12 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Think as the "Wall" as a basic security building block. The most basic in a very real way. Just like your home, without a door, alarm's, gun's, non-lethal force, the ability for the Police to get there on time, and even laws supporting SD, all turn out to be less effective. The door is the building block, which although just like "the wall" is not fool-proof, it makes all these other things either unnecessary for a given threat-event or work even better when the escalation is required.

Door's and Wall's are TOOL's-of-COMPASSION, enabling less often use of harsher methods. (Trump should use this line in the State-of-the-Union).


So my friend, until you agree to take the door to the outside world off your home, I don't think you have much of an argument.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-29-2019 at 10:51 AM.
  #61  
Old 01-29-2019, 10:35 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post

So my friend, until you agree to take the door to the outside world off your home, I don't think you have much of an argument.

Add to that, remove your gun safe door or never shut it...
  #62  
Old 01-29-2019, 10:45 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post

And I agree with you about the revenge politics. The socialists are trying to bury Trump. The socialists have voted for walls before so it's apparent that they just don't want Trumps wall.

I think a lot of this is backlash from Trump politics and his rhetoric during the campaign. Trump didn't want to play nice with anyone, even the GOP, so now he doesn't have the political capital to pull off the thing that matters to him the most. His own fault.
ALL of the left and too much of the GOP just cannot accept Trump WON.
TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE COUNTRY, they just can’t let it go.

Trump has been at the table to make a deal, the left ran away and continue to do so. If they can’t do their fiscal responsible duties, they should resign.

Any barrier will slow invaders and funnel them making it more efficient for BP I would think. Remove the incentives for these illegals, end sanctuary cities and states and immediately END the birth right citizenship.
  #63  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:18 AM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
There is just no logic in your argument. "The wall will not stop everyone, so let's eliminate it so we stop no-one at all". That is like saying we can't stop all crime in this country, so lets just stop fighting crime.

The laws need to change also. But if you can't stop them, changing the laws will not be effective. These are all things which need to be done to fix the problem. And building the wall is the easiest of all these components.

Just look at the last caravan, the only way they stopped them from storming across was with bob-wire (a barrier) and tear gas.

+Border Security leadership says they need the wall to do their job, that is quite an endorsement!
The wall costs $2000 a foot. A ladder costs $40 and a shovel about $20.

The pentagon says it needs a new F-22 fighter that costs 120 million. That's quite and endorsement too.

At what point will people wake up and quit listening to the fed gov't begging for more money. The fed is broke and borrows half the money it spends.

The only wall I would consider spending money on is a 21st century virtual wall, not something from the Ming dynasty.

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For all the Great Wall’s magnificence as a structure, it was only effective if manned by disciplined troops. The remoteness coupled with the harsh living conditions tested even the most steadfast.
History repeats itself.
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  #64  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:53 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
The wall costs $2000 a foot. A ladder costs $40 and a shovel about $20.

The pentagon says it needs a new F-22 fighter that costs 120 million. That's quite and endorsement too.

At what point will people wake up and quit listening to the fed gov't begging for more money. The fed is broke and borrows half the money it spends.

The only wall I would consider spending money on is a 21st century virtual wall, not something from the Ming dynasty.



History repeats itself.
Ha, conflating all the problem's with the federal debt with the 5.XB$ he is asking for. It is a trivial amount in comparison, doesn't even qualify as a round-off error. Go after all the waste created by mostly the lefty expanding government.

A drone isn't going to stop anything. Drones work well in the military because it is often followed by lethal force. We are not in the business of vaporizing illegal's, hence even more important to use "Tools-Of-Compassion" like walls and doors.

Let me know when you are going to follow your own suggestion and take the door's to the outside off your house.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-29-2019 at 12:10 PM.
  #65  
Old 01-29-2019, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
...We are not in the business of vaporizing illegal's, hence even more important to use "Tools-Of-Compassion" like walls and doors...
If we were willing to use lethal force to defend the border we'd have it secured in a month. Most folk don't have the stomach for it. Not sure I do, either.

BUT, the idea behind using lethal force isn't to kill the problem, it's to discourage the problem. Minefields aren't used to kill people; they're used to deny people access. Yes, people would die trying to cross. People die trying to cross already.
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  #66  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:07 PM
CyberDyneSystems CyberDyneSystems is offline
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Walls haven't worked since the western adoption of gun powder,. I'd have expected the people on this forum here of all places to grasp that part of history.

Time and time again history has shown us how walls can be circumvented by the next step in technology. In this case, we aren't talking about massive castles falling to the first cannon shot,. (and thus they stopped building castles because it no longer made economic sense to invest the time and money into something that could be defeated by a far less costly easier to make cannon) as we won't even have defenses that would require anything as powerful as a cannon to blast through it. No instead we are talking about a simple 10,000 year old idea, a wooden ladder which can be made out of cheap wood anywhere. Not exactly high tech.

All warfare is won on economics. It's how Reagan won the cold war. The more bang for your buck, the more likely you will win. Guerrilla tactics, terrorists, supplying the locals to fight for you with rifles, these are the cost effective ways to win. I'm not suggesting this IS a war, ( some I am sure will feel it is. It's certainly been called it.) ...war or not, the same economics, and the frankly no longer common sense, should apply.

Money that is put towards ACTUAL security should be put towards personal and tech. It should be cost effective.

If you build a 2000 mile wall, none of it serves any purpose without personnel and tech to monitor it. In this case the wall serves only to slow the time it takes to cross the border, by perhaps only a matter of minutes.

If we actually put in place the tech and personal to monitor the wall, then we could have simply omitted the wall all together. It's the monitoring that will reduce or stop the crossing of our border. Just putting a wall there will do nothing but cost money.

So why spend the $5 billion?

Last edited by CyberDyneSystems; 01-29-2019 at 02:16 PM.
  #67  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:34 PM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Let me know when you are going to follow your own suggestion and take the door's to the outside off your house.
Why would I do that. It's winter here, 32° this AM.

I never lock my doors anyway. I don't live in the city. I'm 12 miles away from a very small town.

Let me know when you decide to move into the 21st century. Check your calendar, it's 2019.
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 01-29-2019 at 04:02 PM.
  #68  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:50 PM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Originally Posted by CyberDyneSystems View Post
Walls haven't worked since the western adoption of gun powder,. I'd have expected the people on this forum here of all places to grasp that part of history.

Time and time again history has shown us how walls can be circumvented by the next step in technology. In this case, we aren't talking about massive castles falling to the first cannon shot,. (and thus they stopped building castles because it no longer made economic sense to invest the time and money into something that could be defeated by a far less costly easier to make cannon) as we won't even have defenses that would require anything as powerful as a cannon to blast through it. No instead we are talking about a simple 10,000 year old idea, a wooden ladder which can be made out of cheap wood anywhere. Not exactly high tech.

All warfare is won on economics. It's how Reagan won the cold war. The more bang for your buck, the more likely you will win. Guerrilla tactics, terrorists, supplying the locals to fight for you with rifles, these are the cost effective ways to win. I'm not suggesting this IS a war, ( some I am sure will feel it is. It's certainly been called it.) ...war or not, the same economics, and the frankly no longer common sense, should apply.

Money that is put towards ACTUAL security should be put towards personal and tech. It should be cost effective.

If you build a 2000 mile wall, none of it serves any purpose without personnel and tech to monitor it. In this case the wall serves only to slow the time it takes to cross the border, by perhaps only a matter of minutes.

If we actually put in place the tech and personal to monitor the wall, then we could have simply omitted the wall all together. It's the monitoring that will reduce or stop the crossing of our border. Just putting a wall there will do nothing but cost money.

So why spend the $5 billion?
That's where this border security thing will end up and the dems and GOP together will probably be the ones to do it. They have to get the Ming dynasty president out of office first. 25B buys a lot of tech and boots on the ground.
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 01-29-2019 at 03:54 PM.
  #69  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:13 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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If we were willing to use lethal force to defend the border we'd have it secured in a month. Most folk don't have the stomach for it. Not sure I do, either.

BUT, the idea behind using lethal force isn't to kill the problem, it's to discourage the problem. Minefields aren't used to kill people; they're used to deny people access. Yes, people would die trying to cross. People die trying to cross already.
Well, this is what makes defense of the boarder so challenging, we are not fighting another military - we are fighting thugs, rapists, drug-dealer's, slave-trade (human trafficking), some terrorists, etc., mixed in mostly with civilian's. We wouldn't get away with using lethal force (except if directly attacked) even if we thought it was morally correct. Law suits out the wazoo both here and the UN.

And that is also why virtual wall's, drones, and all this other stuff which may work in conjunction with a lethal force threat in a military war have little value, as we can see today with our border. Virtual walls, give you virtually open border's.

And that is where the wall comes in. It is the basic-building-block tool of compassion to defend against civilian intruder's. Without it you either need to use lethal force or accept an open boarder like we have now. The wall is used in conjunction with other non-lethal tools in a symbiotic way. Without the wall, the other nonlethal items will not work, and vise versa.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-29-2019 at 04:20 PM.
  #70  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:47 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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If the left said they would immediately and permanently end all sanctuary cities including ending all benefits starting with birth right citizenships, healthcare, etc...it would possibly discourage illegals. Drones take pictures. My friends car was stolen out of his employers parking lot...All the security tape showed was his car leaving the parking lot.
Bottom line, if there’s no physical barrier of some type used, in conjunction with adequately equipped (armed) border patrol, they can use all the cyber/drone/techno gadgetry in the world and it’s not going to work.
The left doesn’t want them kept out for their vote, otherwise they wouldn’t be fighting so hard for all the sanctuary nonsense.
It’s not that tough to figure out, the left doesn’t want to.
  #71  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:07 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
Let me know when you decide to move into the 21st century. Check your calendar, it's 2019.
I know that is a lefty talking point, that it is old technology, and I suppose this is all you are left with in this discussion as your other points fell apart on examination. But even this last lefty talking point is silly as most of their other talking points, as it seems by their thinking if you use gunpowder in your weapons, you are living in the 9th century when it was invented, and hence it will not work today. So you have a very long way to catch up with your thinking and your calendar's.

Gunpowder like wall's have been around for so long because they are very effective for the purpose they are designed. And that is exactly why the left doesn't want the wall (as Plantar mentioned) because they want open border's.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-29-2019 at 05:16 PM.
  #72  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:23 PM
Timbo3 Timbo3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
I know that is a lefty talking point, that it is old technology, and I suppose this is all you are left with in this discussion as your other points fell apart on examination. But even this last lefty talking point is silly as most of their other talking points, as it seems by their thinking if you use gunpowder in your weapons, you are living in the 9th century when it was invented, and hence it will not work today. So you have a very long way to catch up with your thinking and your calendar's.

Gunpowder like wall's have been around for so long because they are very effective for the purpose they are designed. And that is exactly why the left doesn't want the wall (as Plantar mentioned) because they want open border's.
Ahh finally a sense of reason and common sense. I was getting a little tired of the Libby narrative.
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  #73  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:39 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberDyneSystems View Post
Walls haven't worked since the western adoption of gun powder,. I'd have expected the people on this forum here of all places to grasp that part of history.

Time and time again history has shown us how walls can be circumvented by the next step in technology. In this case, we aren't talking about massive castles falling to the first cannon shot,. (and thus they stopped building castles because it no longer made economic sense to invest the time and money into something that could be defeated by a far less costly easier to make cannon) as we won't even have defenses that would require anything as powerful as a cannon to blast through it. No instead we are talking about a simple 10,000 year old idea, a wooden ladder which can be made out of cheap wood anywhere. Not exactly high tech.

All warfare is won on economics. It's how Reagan won the cold war. The more bang for your buck, the more likely you will win. Guerrilla tactics, terrorists, supplying the locals to fight for you with rifles, these are the cost effective ways to win. I'm not suggesting this IS a war, ( some I am sure will feel it is. It's certainly been called it.) ...war or not, the same economics, and the frankly no longer common sense, should apply.

Money that is put towards ACTUAL security should be put towards personal and tech. It should be cost effective.

If you build a 2000 mile wall, none of it serves any purpose without personnel and tech to monitor it. In this case the wall serves only to slow the time it takes to cross the border, by perhaps only a matter of minutes.

If we actually put in place the tech and personal to monitor the wall, then we could have simply omitted the wall all together. It's the monitoring that will reduce or stop the crossing of our border. Just putting a wall there will do nothing but cost money.

So why spend the $5 billion?
^^^This^^^ makes no sense at all^^ Arming guerillas?

I’m guessing you’re in favor of sanctuary cities and states too...

Btw, No one ever suggested to do away with border patrol.
  #74  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:19 PM
John Joseph John Joseph is online now
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So how do you go about building a monetary reserve to hold you over the next time your pay check evaporates?
  #75  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:53 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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Originally Posted by John Joseph View Post
So how do you go about building a monetary reserve to hold you over the next time your pay check evaporates?
There’s no question the wrong people had their paychecks held up imho, which is why nothing got done for more than a month.

But What does anyone do when they’re met with an unexpected expense?
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