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  #1  
Old 08-01-2015, 08:54 PM
Retired AF CE Retired AF CE is offline
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WC Flat Recoil Spring Commander Length

All,


I have a Dan Wesson CCO and I am thinking of changing out the recoil spring to a WC flat recoil spring http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wir...ctinfo/651C22/

I know I need a .250 dia guide rod but will this spring work in a 4-1/4 commander length slide?

Also, I don't want to use the WC Flat Recoil Spring Kit. I wanted to use the short guide rod setup. Is the WC Bullet Proof guide rod , part number 576S .250 dia? http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Recoil-S...ductinfo/576S/

Thanks,
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  #2  
Old 08-01-2015, 10:09 PM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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Wilson won't make 1/4" flat wire guide rods in GI length for guns less than 5" barrel length.

EGW makes kits for commanders but only in full length.
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Last edited by remanaz; 08-01-2015 at 10:11 PM.
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  #3  
Old 08-01-2015, 11:39 PM
7east 7east is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retired AF CE View Post
All,


I have a Dan Wesson CCO and I am thinking of changing out the recoil spring to a WC flat recoil spring http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wir...ctinfo/651C22/

I know I need a .250 dia guide rod but will this spring work in a 4-1/4 commander length slide?

Also, I don't want to use the WC Flat Recoil Spring Kit. I wanted to use the short guide rod setup. Is the WC Bullet Proof guide rod , part number 576S .250 dia? http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Recoil-S...ductinfo/576S/

Thanks,
You have to buy the flat kit and use the supplied guide rod, then use a separate full length guide rod plug for a commander length gun. WCR posted the exact part numbers in a thread a while back. I have that setup in my 4.25" gun. Works great.

So to answer your questions: yes that spring works, and no that is not the correct diameter guide rod.

I believe this is the plug I ordered-http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Replacement-Plug-Full-Length-Guide-Rod/productinfo/25P/

Last edited by 7east; 08-01-2015 at 11:49 PM.
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  #4  
Old 08-04-2015, 09:14 AM
Retired AF CE Retired AF CE is offline
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I found what I am looking for from Nighthawk Custom! I am not chasing rabbits down rabbit holes anymore!

I called WC and they told me about this: http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/shop/...il-system.html

Nighthawk has the commander set up in stock if anyone is interested!
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  #5  
Old 08-04-2015, 10:44 AM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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Your link shows for gov length. You will have to cut that guide rod and spring down to commander length right? It also says to be for a 9mm which in Gov length will have a lighter spring than 45. You are putting this in a DW CCO right?

Why not just buy the correct parts from EGW. For some reason EGW does not include the spring with the guide rod and plug but does sell the spring in their spring section on page 2.

This is the blued plug version but they also sell a SS version.

http://www.egwguns.com/index.php?p=product&id=78


http://www.egwguns.com/index.php?p=product&id=104



Now if you are wanting to convert it to a GI length guide rod setup like I have for mine then by all means cut away.
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  #6  
Old 08-04-2015, 11:29 AM
Retired AF CE Retired AF CE is offline
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Originally Posted by remanaz View Post
Your link shows for gov length. You will have to cut that guide rod and spring down to commander length right? It also says to be for a 9mm which in Gov length will have a lighter spring than 45. You are putting this in a DW CCO right?

Why not just buy the correct parts from EGW. For some reason EGW does not include the spring with the guide rod and plug but does sell the spring in their spring section on page 2.

This is the blued plug version but they also sell a SS version.

http://www.egwguns.com/index.php?p=product&id=78


http://www.egwguns.com/index.php?p=product&id=104



Now if you are wanting to convert it to a GI length guide rod setup like I have for mine then by all means cut away.
I called them, they have the commander setup in stock! They have not updated the site.
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  #7  
Old 08-04-2015, 11:33 AM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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Originally Posted by Retired AF CE View Post
I called them, they have the commander setup in stock! They have not updated the site.
I see. Since you are posting the link you might want to mention that the link is not for the cmd model that you are talking about.
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  #8  
Old 08-04-2015, 12:42 PM
Retired AF CE Retired AF CE is offline
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Originally Posted by remanaz View Post
I see. Since you are posting the link you might want to mention that the link is not for the cmd model that you are talking about.
I am not stupid! I know this already! Read my post!
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  #9  
Old 08-04-2015, 12:55 PM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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Originally Posted by Retired AF CE View Post
I am not stupid! I know this already! Read my post!
I am not calling you stupid. Your post may confuse people as you are posting a link for a different item then the one you are referring too. Especially since you are posting it in other threads too.
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  #10  
Old 08-05-2015, 12:19 AM
mbsigman1 mbsigman1 is offline
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Hey, Mr Retired.....

Although I (as the owner of several Commanders) appreciate the information you shared, your response was a bit on the harsh side, don't you think?
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  #11  
Old 08-05-2015, 02:29 PM
themao themao is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retired AF CE View Post
All,


I have a Dan Wesson CCO and I am thinking of changing out the recoil spring to a WC flat recoil spring http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wir...ctinfo/651C22/

I know I need a .250 dia guide rod but will this spring work in a 4-1/4 commander length slide?

Also, I don't want to use the WC Flat Recoil Spring Kit. I wanted to use the short guide rod setup. Is the WC Bullet Proof guide rod , part number 576S .250 dia? http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Recoil-S...ductinfo/576S/

Thanks,
I own a Nighthawk Talon II commander, and I could not get the Nighthawk Everlast system to work on my pistol due to fitting issues.

To use Wilson's flat wire recoil spring on your commander length pistol, you need the following:

Flat wire recoil spring 4" compact, 22 lb (651C22) (http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wir...ctinfo/651C22/)

a flat wire recoil spring guide (not sure if they sell this individually, and they did not three years ago when I made the switch, so I bought the kit instead)

25P replacement plug, full length guide rod (http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Replacem...oductinfo/25P/)


Or you can buy the kit, item 651: (http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wir...oductinfo/651/ ) and then buy the 25P plug. The plug that comes with the kit won't work for the commander.

I noticed slightly smoother cycling and a slight change in the timing of the cycling. If you shoot enough, you will notice a difference vs a standard 18 lb chrome silicon spring set up.

Go ahead and try the Everlast, but I tried it when it first came out. I could not get it to fit in my gun without sending it back to Nighthawk. Wilson's set up worked out of the box from the get go, which is what I wanted in the event I needed to replace the parts, etc.
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  #12  
Old 08-05-2015, 07:11 PM
rvanno rvanno is offline
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That sounds like a lot of work for a recoil spring!!
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  #13  
Old 08-05-2015, 09:40 PM
Jimsea Jimsea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themao View Post
I own a Nighthawk Talon II commander, and I could not get the Nighthawk Everlast system to work on my pistol due to fitting issues.

To use Wilson's flat wire recoil spring on your commander length pistol, you need the following:

Flat wire recoil spring 4" compact, 22 lb (651C22) (http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wir...ctinfo/651C22/)

a flat wire recoil spring guide (not sure if they sell this individually, and they did not three years ago when I made the switch, so I bought the kit instead)

25P replacement plug, full length guide rod (http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Replacem...oductinfo/25P/)


Or you can buy the kit, item 651: (http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wir...oductinfo/651/ ) and then buy the 25P plug. The plug that comes with the kit won't work for the commander.

I noticed slightly smoother cycling and a slight change in the timing of the cycling. If you shoot enough, you will notice a difference vs a standard 18 lb chrome silicon spring set up.

Go ahead and try the Everlast, but I tried it when it first came out. I could not get it to fit in my gun without sending it back to Nighthawk. Wilson's set up worked out of the box from the get go, which is what I wanted in the event I needed to replace the parts, etc.
A question for you. Based on your links above you're using the Wilson guide rod specified for their 4 inch guns in your commander. Does using the slightly shorter FLGR enable you to still remove/pull the guide rod and spring out the back rather than using a bushing wrench and pulling the spring out the front?

I ask this because Wilson also lists a one piece guide rod for the 4 1/4 commander which I am assuming will restrict spring removal strictly from the front.

If I can get full functionality from the guide rod specified for the 4 inch instead of the 4 1/4 FLGR for my commander I might try the shorter of the two.
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Current 1911s: DW custom CCO Valkyrie 38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .45, EB Executive Elite govt .45

Sold: Wilson custom CQB Govt/bobtail 38s, EB SFC .45, EB SF .45, DW Guardian .45, DW CCO .45, DW Vbob .45, NH T4 9mm COTEP

Last edited by Jimsea; 08-05-2015 at 09:46 PM.
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  #14  
Old 08-06-2015, 05:17 PM
themao themao is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimsea View Post
A question for you. Based on your links above you're using the Wilson guide rod specified for their 4 inch guns in your commander. Does using the slightly shorter FLGR enable you to still remove/pull the guide rod and spring out the back rather than using a bushing wrench and pulling the spring out the front?

I ask this because Wilson also lists a one piece guide rod for the 4 1/4 commander which I am assuming will restrict spring removal strictly from the front.

If I can get full functionality from the guide rod specified for the 4 inch instead of the 4 1/4 FLGR for my commander I might try the shorter of the two.
I'm using the flat wire recoil spring guide rod that comes in the 4" kit for two reasons:

1. The flat wire recoil spring has a smaller inner diameter than a standard recoil spring, and as a consequence, it requires a recoil spring guide rod that possesses a smaller overall diameter than a standard guide rod. A standard length or full length guide rod for a commander, that is meant for the traditional chrome silicon springs, will not work in conjunction with the flat wire recoil springs that Wilson Combat sells (such as the full commander length guide rod that you are referring to here: http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Full-Len...oductinfo/25C/)

2. Wilson Combat does not sell a specific flat wire recoil spring guide rod meant for commanders, only the 4" model. Despite this, it really doesn't matter because it's a 22 lb spring and works outstanding with all of the standard 230 grain FMJ and personal defense loads I've tried.

To address your question regarding disassembly and reassembly, yes you can load the spring and guide rod from the rear when disassembled and then put the bushing back on with the plug in place. It is hell to depress the reverese 25P plug (and I have baby fingers), but it can be done. The system (recoil spring, reverse plug, bushing + guide rod) stays together fairly well when the slide is off the frame during reassembly, and you can put everything together onto the frame and lock it into place with the slide stop with some practice. Not using a bushing wrench can be painful though when depressing the 25P plug with your thumb though, but of course, I have baby fingers

Does that answer your questions? I would go ahead and try it out. The entire reason I did it, is because I got sick of changing recoil springs every 1200-1500 rounds (even when using Wolff's awesome springs). If Wilson develops a proprietary magazine/feed ramp system to make the 1911 feed more reliably with different bullet types, I will never shoot a Glock again
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  #15  
Old 08-06-2015, 06:04 PM
Jimsea Jimsea is offline
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Thanks for the quick and concise response. I am gong to try your suggestion on a 38 super commander using 25p and the 4" FLGR kit w/15# flat spring.

Looks to be impossible to locate flat wire springs in other than 15# or 22# that will work in the commander. 15# should be fine though with light loads. Could also clip the 22# to tune it to my liking.
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Current 1911s: DW custom CCO Valkyrie 38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .45, EB Executive Elite govt .45

Sold: Wilson custom CQB Govt/bobtail 38s, EB SFC .45, EB SF .45, DW Guardian .45, DW CCO .45, DW Vbob .45, NH T4 9mm COTEP

Last edited by Jimsea; 08-06-2015 at 06:08 PM.
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  #16  
Old 08-06-2015, 09:02 PM
themao themao is offline
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http://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/

I would call these guys first. Likewise, you probably would be better off starting with a 22 lb spring and trimming it. 15 lbs sounds way to light for .38 super. The power is similar to a .40 cal if I'm not mistaken.

Given time and cash, I really would like to try a .38 super pistol for carry. It just makes more sense on the 1911 platform than does 9 mm. Of course, it's not like my .45 ACP commander is lacking anything, and I can control it just fine.
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  #17  
Old 08-06-2015, 10:00 PM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimsea View Post
Thanks for the quick and concise response. I am gong to try your suggestion on a 38 super commander using 25p and the 4" FLGR kit w/15# flat spring.

Looks to be impossible to locate flat wire springs in other than 15# or 22# that will work in the commander. 15# should be fine though with light loads. Could also clip the 22# to tune it to my liking.
If you want a commander length 1/4" rod EGW sells them. They both will work though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by themao View Post
http://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/

I would call these guys first. Likewise, you probably would be better off starting with a 22 lb spring and trimming it. 15 lbs sounds way to light for .38 super. The power is similar to a .40 cal if I'm not mistaken.

Given time and cash, I really would like to try a .38 super pistol for carry. It just makes more sense on the 1911 platform than does 9 mm. Of course, it's not like my .45 ACP commander is lacking anything, and I can control it just fine.
15 is the usual spring rate for 38 super. 22 is on the high end for a 4.25" 45 being that commanders in 45 typically run 18 or 20. The ISMI flatwire spring that EGW selles for commanders in 45 is a 22 though. I provided a link in a previous post in this thread.
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Last edited by remanaz; 08-06-2015 at 10:07 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-06-2015, 10:05 PM
Jimsea Jimsea is offline
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Originally Posted by remanaz View Post
If you want a commander length 1/4" rod EGW sells them. They both will work though.



15 is the usual spring rate for 38 super. 22 is on the high end for a 45 being that commanders in 45 typically run 18.
I found a Wilson govt 17# flat spring that would be a good candidate for some experimental trimming down to commander size. I'll cut it down until no spring bind then tune it from there.

........appreciate the replies.

Sorry for the hijack OP. This thread has a lot of good info. Let us now how you make out.
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Current 1911s: DW custom CCO Valkyrie 38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .45, EB Executive Elite govt .45

Sold: Wilson custom CQB Govt/bobtail 38s, EB SFC .45, EB SF .45, DW Guardian .45, DW CCO .45, DW Vbob .45, NH T4 9mm COTEP
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  #19  
Old 08-08-2015, 09:24 AM
themao themao is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remanaz View Post
If you want a commander length 1/4" rod EGW sells them. They both will work though.

15 is the usual spring rate for 38 super. 22 is on the high end for a 4.25" 45 being that commanders in 45 typically run 18 or 20. The ISMI flatwire spring that EGW selles for commanders in 45 is a 22 though. I provided a link in a previous post in this thread.
I stand corrected. Sorry, I skipped over your post.
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  #20  
Old 08-08-2015, 10:35 PM
Jimsea Jimsea is offline
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Ok......the parts are will be here in a couple of days. I bought a Wilson 4" flat wire kit (+25p) to use in a 38s commander. I also bought the Bob Marvel flat wire kit for the commander. I have several pistols and will use both spring kits.

I have question: .......never mind. I got the answer.
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Current 1911s: DW custom CCO Valkyrie 38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .45, EB Executive Elite govt .45

Sold: Wilson custom CQB Govt/bobtail 38s, EB SFC .45, EB SF .45, DW Guardian .45, DW CCO .45, DW Vbob .45, NH T4 9mm COTEP

Last edited by Jimsea; 08-08-2015 at 11:13 PM.
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  #21  
Old 08-08-2015, 10:56 PM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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Think about how you currently remove your spring plugs. Now imagine if there was a solid rod that was flush with the end of the plug. Could you push the plug in to rotate the bushing? In this case it is more so for the bushing to stll be able to be turned without hitting the guide rod.
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Old 08-08-2015, 11:28 PM
Jimsea Jimsea is offline
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The answer is/was.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by remanaz View Post
In this case it is more so for the bushing to stll be able to be turned without hitting the guide rod.

Then there is always the paper clip take down to remove the FLGR from the equation all together.

So, one could cut the FLGR flush with the end of the 25p open ended plug, however it would eliminate a take down method (barrel bushing rotation/plug and spring out the front). You just don't see any cut that way I've noticed.
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Current 1911s: DW custom CCO Valkyrie 38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .45, EB Executive Elite govt .45

Sold: Wilson custom CQB Govt/bobtail 38s, EB SFC .45, EB SF .45, DW Guardian .45, DW CCO .45, DW Vbob .45, NH T4 9mm COTEP
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  #23  
Old 08-09-2015, 02:51 AM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimsea View Post
The answer is/was.......





Then there is always the paper clip take down to remove the FLGR from the equation all together.

So, one could cut the FLGR flush with the end of the 25p open ended plug, however it would eliminate a take down method (barrel bushing rotation/plug and spring out the front). You just don't see any cut that way I've noticed.

That would be correct sir.

I remove all my slides while still under spring tension anyways.

I have installed EGW angle bore bushing on all 4 of my bushing guns and left them wrench needing tight. So I don't bother turning the bushing unless I really need to remove the barrel.

On my bull barreled 4" SA I converted it to a GI setup and installed a closed end reverse plug so there is no option of unloading the spring tension. This one is now using a Wilson flatwire spring/guide rod in GI fasion.
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:37 PM
Jimsea Jimsea is offline
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Well, for anyone following this thread everything I ordered came UPS today........the Nighthawk Bob Marvel flatwire recoil spring kit advertised for a commander length slide, the Wilson 4" flatwire kit, a 25p recoil spring plug, various individual flatwire springs of varying weights, and a set of Black/gray Wilson G-mascus govt (non-bobtail) grips.

And on top of that my T-4 also emerged off the back of the UPS truck as well after getting a one piece rounded butt magwell installed. It was like a kid at Christmas........I didn't know which package to open and fondle first.

As you have guessed the T4 was fondled first and it is way beyond what I expected. The fit in the hand is really nice with that magwell.

Since the NH Bob Marvel flatwire kit was in the same bag I tried to pop that into one of my DW commanders. Several things.......my slide is setup so the recoil spring plug will only come out the front of the slide meaning the paper clip takedown is a no go. The provided NH recoil plug is not for a thick barrel bushing, and last but not least the guide rod head is oversized and will not drop into the slide. It hits both sides of the rail and binds up when you push it down. So, that is too much work to get that right. It's going back.

Next, I whipped out the Wilson 4" flatwire kit which is touted as a drop-in unit. First I noticed the 25p recoil plug (at least the one I got) is for a standard diameter guide rod, not the .250 guide rod needed to run flatwire springs. So, I tried installing it with the NH plug which is the proper diameter. First thing I noticed was the Wilson guide rod head is quite a bit smaller than the OEM DW guide rod head. It was a little loose instead of the snug/precise fit of the DW. After I got it all together, because the Wilson guide rod is little shorter than a standard commander FLGR the end of the Wilson guide rod did not extend into to the .250 opening of the open end plug. When I tried to cycle the slide the tip of the guide rod would hang-up as it tried to pass into the .250 opening. That's not going to work for me either.

It looks like T4 will be my only flatwire 1911. The Wilson and Wessons all run perfectly with the traditional springs. Looks like I will leave them alone and change out springs more often.

The other positive today was cutting down (bobbing) the standard Wilson G-mascus grips. They are not available for a bobtail. Making a bobtailed version out of the standard grips was a breeze. The G-10 was supper easy to work with......30 minute job and they look like they were ordered that way.

Anyone considering a flatwire spring kit conversion.........hope these posts help you with your decisions.
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Current 1911s: DW custom CCO Valkyrie 38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .38s, Nighthawk Falcon commander .45, EB Executive Elite govt .45

Sold: Wilson custom CQB Govt/bobtail 38s, EB SFC .45, EB SF .45, DW Guardian .45, DW CCO .45, DW Vbob .45, NH T4 9mm COTEP

Last edited by Jimsea; 08-12-2015 at 09:41 PM.
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  #25  
Old 08-12-2015, 10:15 PM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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There is still the EGW commander one you haven't tried.
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