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  #1  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:26 AM
High_Noon High_Noon is offline
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Baer's Hard Fit

I just ordered a UTC, 1.5," NFCS. Last night I came across this thread: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthr...=992214&page=2

The exchange between Rob at Alchemy and Dave at Evolution regarding Baer's hard fit has me concerned that I made the wrong decision. Granted, I'm unlikely to reach a round count of 30K, but I'm concerned nonetheless, that both Rob and Dave seem to disagree with Baer's build philosophy.

I'm blowing my budget to purchase this UTC. I have no idea what the cost might be to properly correct the hard fit on my UTC (which I have not taken possession of yet.) Should I be concerned? I don't want to have to send in an expensive pistol I just purchased to correct the hard fit, when for a just a bit more I could have purchased a Alchemy Custom Prime.

I never knew of the Alchemy Custom Prime until last night and now I'm second guessing myself.
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:55 AM
sprmx199 sprmx199 is offline
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No need to second guess your decision.

I have a couple of Baers and have had no issues with either one each with a few thousand rounds thru each.

Now, with that said, Baers are built to Uncle's Les specs and his alone.

If you happen to have an issue, send it back to Les or to one of the top smiths that hang out on here to get it fixed or corrected.

Personally, I have guns built by Rob and Dave and are top notch and would not trade them for the world, but there is something about a Baer that feels just right as well.

Hope it helps, Ray.
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:57 AM
Jacobconroy75 Jacobconroy75 is offline
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I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Baer. Of my five 1911s it feels much more solid than the others. So far it's been more reliable and accurate too.

Mine was purchased second hand though, so someone else had to break it in. Baer has been in business selling hard fit pistols for a long time. People keep buying them.

You might wind up be required to put a little effort into making it the pistol it will become. If you think that process would ruin your range trips for the first 500 rounds, then maybe a different maker would be a better choice for you.
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  #4  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:58 AM
High_Noon High_Noon is offline
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sprmx199: Thanks Ray, that does help. I think I'm over-reacting. I guess what has me spooked is that according to both Rob and Dave the lower lugs on a Baer are not fully finished and that there is no reason that a pistol should be super hard to rack and require a bushing wrench to field strip.

Jacobconroy75: Good to know, and no, I don't believe the break-in process would ruin my trips to the range - that is - as long as I'm able to rack the slide on the danged thing.

Last edited by High_Noon; 12-13-2019 at 11:45 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:20 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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I wouldn't sweat it. I've got 6 Baers. They all run balls out. Unless you're a 1%'er, you likely can't afford the ammo to wear the gun out. And if you do, send it to Rob to have a new barrel fit.
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  #6  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:22 AM
RodII RodII is offline
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Like most concerns that people worry over, I always fall back on my rule #1-
"Read less, shoot more."
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  #7  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:26 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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I find it hard to believe whatever they have been doing for so long doesn't work. If it didn't I would think there would be a mound of evidence by now to state so.

So whether it works for me or not which it doesn't I find it hard to believe without hearing something to the contrary that there is something so wrong about it.
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  #8  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:18 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Amen to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RodII View Post
Like most concerns that people worry over, I always fall back on my rule #1-
"Read less, shoot more."
I would not sweat it. I bought my first Baer back in May. Coming up on two thousand rounds with nary a hitch. And I have not even cleaned it yet. Maybe I will one of these days.
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  #9  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:38 PM
snakebill snakebill is offline
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Highnoon- a few things I might add- I love my Pll and my fathers monolith. I disassemble and reassemble them (and all my 1911’s now) like a cz. I hold the slide back at the take down notch and remove the slide stop, then remove the complete slide, spring and all at once. I reassemble the same way that way you’re not fighting the spring and plug with an absurdly tight bushing.
Although there are a few peeves I have with Baer now, they’re not deal breakers. I still find my Baer to be my favorite and best shooting pistol. If/when something happens to it, I’ll deal with it then. I’m not crazy about the lower lug fit or the cast slide stop, but they’re fine so far, and I’m sure they’ll stay that way. I really do love the alchemy prime and I believe it’s better in every way than my pll, but it’s also almost twice what I paid.
On the plus side, I feel for me, Baer’s extra big grip fits me perfectly. The sights are exactly what I like and the kart barrels are hands down the best. Since it broke in it is so smooth it’s addicting to just rack the slide. I’m sure you’re going to be very pleased with your purchase.
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:46 PM
UpperMW UpperMW is offline
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You did just fine, enjoy it. The Boss model I have is the most accurate gun I have and I can't remember having an ftf. It is my understanding that the tight fit thing is intended to be like the way handmade guns were done since 1930s.

Baers are unique old school guns. Maybe just different from the way builders do things now from a technology standpoint, but my experience says every bit as good or better and cheaper.
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  #11  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:38 PM
wimpy wimpy is offline
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Do not be concerned, like most of the baer owner I think my p11 is the best shooting pistol I own,and the one I love to shoot. I have just passed 10,000 rounds( more than any of my other handguns or rifles) and it still works great, just gets smoother. I just shot 4 bowling pins,in a row at 45 yds,standing on my hind feet, if you do your part a baer will bring smiles. WIMPY
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  #12  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:04 PM
wc145 wc145 is offline
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I wouldn't worry about it. The first Baer I bought was a Custom Carry that was supposed to have had about 250rds through it. That gun ran perfect, never a hitch, from the first time I shot it. It was so accurate and easy to shoot well I sold it and took the plunge and bought a new Boss. Again, not a hiccup. Took it out of the box, lubed it and shot a USPSA match with it and won single stack.

I've had an Alchemy built custom and it was a great gun. And I think the new Alchemy guns look great and are very well built, a friend has a Commander size. But, I don't feel like I'm missing anything and I'm not selling my Baers to buy one. I expect that you can ask every custom 1911 'smith out there what their build philosophy is and you'll get a different answer from each. One thing that sells me on Baers, beyond the way the guns perform, is that Les has been building them the same way for decades. He isn't swayed by fads or what's popular at the moment. To me, that kind of longevity says he has his formula down and it works.
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  #13  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:48 PM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
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Many members on our Team bought them. After not getting the service we needed to get them to match standards, or for some maintain match standards we had another gunsmith fit new Kart barrels, bushings, replace slide stops and do trigger work. They were great after that. Unfortunately the $600+ bill per pistol put each 1911 in Rock River and even nearly full custom territory. In my completely baseless opinion most folks don’t have the equipment to test their pistols (ransom or HEG rest), load precision match ammunition, compete in precision sports (Bullseye) at distance (50 yards) and expend enough ammunition to determine, or detect/observe later accuracy issues and will therefore be exceptionally happy.

Plenty of good ones. One of our guys has a pre-move Baer that is an absolute laser. Just give it a good look then contact Les for any issues you find.

Great articles to use to support inspecting your pistol.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...ster-gunsmith/

https://www.bullseyepistol.com/cstomgun.htm
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Last edited by JayhawkNavy02; 12-13-2019 at 11:31 PM.
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:15 PM
High_Noon High_Noon is offline
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Thanks fellas, you have put my mind at ease. Hammond sent me photos of the pistol this AM and he gave it a “once over.” He said that the slide was not as difficult to rack as he thought it was going to be. I asked him about the slide stop fitment and he said that it was not the best, but was acceptable – the photos he sent me show a pretty good gap, but it looks like it engages ok when the slide is locked back. He also said that the safety was definitely stiff, but not so much so that he had trouble with it. I haven’t had a chance to view the photos he sent me in detail yet, but I will do so later. I can always send the pistol into Rob at Alchemy to have a Wilson slide stop installed and have him fit the lower lugs properly and perhaps tune the trigger after I get it good and broken in – hopefully such work won’t cost too much.

**********
TRSOtto: Nope I’m not a 1%er, but I’d like to be.

RodII: I like the way you think.

Dddrees: I’m sure you’re correct.

USMM guy: Not sure if I’ll wait that long to strip and clean mine.

snakebill: Yes, I’ve seen the Alchemy video on this and I will dis/reassemble in this manner. I also think you’re correct in your assessment of the Alchemy Prime, but I’ve never handled one – I have seen videos and they sure are sweet-looking pistols, but then so are Baers. Glad to hear that yours broke in so nicely. --- What are the things that bother you about your PII?

UpperMW: I do like the fact that the Baer build is old school – something about a fully hand-built pistol is highly gratifying to own.

wimpy: That’s a lotta’ rounds. Glad to hear your PII is your best-shootin’ iron.

wc145: That’s what I’m hoping for with my new UTC and you definitely have a point about every builder having a different build philosophy – and Baer certainly has his formula down. Also good to read that you don't feel like your missing anything with the Baer vs. the Alchemy Prime.

JayhawkNavy02: Thanks for the links – I will definitely look them over. I’m sure you’re correct in your assessment that most do not have equipment and time to shoot like your team. Hopefully, I’ll get lucky and get a good ‘un.

Last edited by High_Noon; 12-13-2019 at 11:55 PM.
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  #15  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:52 PM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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OP,
You did your homework, excellent!!! And using Hammond was another great choice.
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  #16  
Old 12-13-2019, 08:29 PM
snakebill snakebill is offline
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snakebill: Yes, I’ve seen the Alchemy video on this and I will dis/reassemble in this manner. I also think you’re correct in your assessment of the Alchemy Prime, but I’ve never handled one – I have seen videos and they sure are sweet-looking pistols, but then so are Baers. Glad to hear that yours broke in so nicely. --- What are the things that bother you about your PII?

Before I answer your question I want to say I really do love my Baer and would buy it again. I have never had a FTF or FTE and I only shoot my handloaded 200gr swc. I’m a big colt fan and with all the complaints about mim parts (never had a problem with those either) I thought the Baer was all steel. I was a bit irked that the slide stop and mag catch/release were cast. I know they’re cast well, it just bugs me. After seeing and hearing the lower lug debate I can clearly see a flat file was used. Again, no issues though. Finally I love/hate that the slide turned a bit purple. Some call it pluming. You see it on old blued colts. Apparently it’s because Baer uses a different steel for the slide and the frame. Some days I like it, others not so much. If it bothers me that much I’m not shooting enough.
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  #17  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:10 PM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Some like the Plum look, I don't:-(
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  #18  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:27 PM
High_Noon High_Noon is offline
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snakebill: Thanks for the reply. Yes, I too am not thrilled that the slide stop and mag release are cast on Baer pistols - but that's easy enough to remedy. I also read that the grip safety was cast, but I have not been able to corroborate this yet - if so, that is also bothersome for a high-end pistol such as the Baers. Then again, in order to meet their price point, there has to be savings somewhere along the line.

gumbee: Thanks, and I've had many years to drool over and research most of the high-end pistols (I'm just a bit remiss that I didn't find out about the Alchemy Prime until last night, but I'm gonna start saving my pennies for one). I agree with you regarding the pluming and if mine starts to plum, it will get a re-blue when I eventually send it in to Rob at Alchemy for the aforementioned work. However, I read that Baer changed his blueing formula to combat this problem, but I don't know if this is true.

Last edited by High_Noon; 12-14-2019 at 06:18 PM.
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  #19  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:48 PM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpperMW View Post
Baers are unique old school guns. Maybe just different from the way builders do things now from a technology standpoint, but my experience says every bit as good or better and cheaper.
Not old school, shortcuts. The cost is passed on to the buyer to replace the barrel. Marketing at its best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snakebill View Post
I thought the Baer was all steel. I was a bit irked that the slide stop and mag catch/release were cast. I know they’re cast well, it just bugs me. After seeing and hearing the lower lug debate I can clearly see a flat file was used.
I would have zero worries on the slide stop, beaver tail and mag release being cast.
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Last edited by JayhawkNavy02; 12-14-2019 at 12:05 PM.
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  #20  
Old 12-14-2019, 09:43 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snakebill View Post
.... I thought the Baer was all steel. I was a bit irked that the slide stop and mag catch/release were cast. I know they’re cast well, it just bugs me. After seeing and hearing the lower lug debate I can clearly see a flat file was used. Again, no issues though. Finally I love/hate that the slide turned a bit purple. Some call it pluming. You see it on old blued colts. Apparently it’s because Baer uses a different steel for the slide and the frame.
Baers cast parts are still steel.

I'd be willing to bet that the slide and frame are both 4140 Ordnance grade steel....but with a slight difference in hardness....hence the difference in blue. I might be wrong....but I doubt it. Rob from Alchemy would know for certain.
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  #21  
Old 12-14-2019, 06:02 PM
High_Noon High_Noon is offline
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Regarding "pluming," lowegan, a moderator and gunsmith on another forum, had this to say:

"Plum color on Ruger frames, loading gates and cylinders is quite common with older guns. It's actually a defect but many people ... especially collectors go nuts over defective bluing jobs.

Here's the skinny ... bluing salts are added to pure water to form a "super saturated solution". When mixed to the proper proportions, it goes to a low boil at 292 deg F, which is the ideal temperature for hot bluing tanks. Water boils at 212 deg F so you have to keep adding water or the solution will get too strong. If the solution is not carefully controlled where either the temperature gets too high or too much water boils off, the gun will come out of the tanks with a plum color.

Further, Ruger uses molybdenum in their frames, cylinders, and loading gate alloys. This strengthens the metal but has a nasty side affect ... in time, a nice bluing job will turn plum colored. Some times it takes several years for the plum color to show up ... sometimes it never does show up.

So ... a combination of the two above conditions ... older Ruger SAs could come right out of the box with a plum color or may turn plum in a few years .... either way, it's a defect in the bluing process that can be avoided. Ruger now uses an additive in their bluing tanks that prevent plum coloring. Brownell's sells it as "S" additive. BTW, you rarely see plum barrels because they are a different steel alloy."

-----

Perhaps Baer slides have a higher molybdenum content than their frames. I can't imagine that they don't watch the chemistry of their blueing tanks.

Last edited by High_Noon; 12-14-2019 at 06:06 PM.
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  #22  
Old 12-15-2019, 06:21 AM
buyamerican buyamerican is offline
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I had 4 at one time and the 5 inch guns ran fine out of the box. The 4.25 inch Commander length gun was a nightmare and I would never buy a 4.25 inch Baer again. You can put your mine at ease the 5 inch guns run fine. As other have said Les Builds them the way he wants to and thats ok. I will say Alchemy and EA does make some valid points. If you use Wilson 47 magazines there is a good chance you will have to trim the base pad slightly to get it to seat and you can forget about a drop in magwell. The best thing to do with a LB gun is buy it and shoot it as is. Again you did not make a mistake so enjoy your new LB.
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  #23  
Old 12-15-2019, 07:52 AM
duketbrd88 duketbrd88 is offline
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Just shoot it and enjoy it. It will be more accurate then you ever will be. Mine is like a laser. They are great guns , if you already have a bad taste about Baer and keep reading stuff than, you mines well just sell it and move on, because you will never enjoy it it. Oil it good and shoot a couple hundred rounds through it and then report back how nice it is. Remember Rob is a great guy and used to work there, but has moved on to bigger and better things. Everyone has a different build philosophy. If you for some reason you don't like it, you can always sell it. I am sure you will love it, or if you are not sure just see if you can take a little loss now and upgrade to the prime with your dealer. I am sure you will love it.
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  #24  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:37 AM
MayberryCoSAR MayberryCoSAR is offline
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Ditto the comment from member buyamerican re: Wilson Combat 47 mags and LB. I use the 7-round 47s exclusively, the ones with the low-profile steel basepad. I file just a bit of the material off the pad and cold-blue the exposed metal on the pad afterwards. They can be tight or impossible to seat in my UTC without that slight modification.

The goodness of the UTC has made that step more than worthwhile. You’re in for some good times with your LB!
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  #25  
Old 12-15-2019, 09:46 AM
High_Noon High_Noon is offline
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I generally run Chip McCormick 8 round Power Mags, so hopefully I won't have a seating issue.
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