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  #1  
Old 04-07-2020, 02:05 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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Remember the Bundy Ranch Confrontation?

Well, Ammon Bundy is now leading a "Liberty Rebellion" confronting Idaho governor's order on covid 19 gatherings and is proposing to come to the rescue of people affected by forced business shut-down.

https://dnyuz.com/2020/04/07/a-liber...avirus-orders/
Quote:
The meeting, which appeared to violate orders by Gov. Brad Little of Idaho to avoid group gatherings, was an assertion of what Mr. Bundy said was a constitutional right to peacefully assemble. But Mr. Bundy said he also hoped to create a network of people ready to come to the aid of those facing closure of their businesses or other interference from the government as a result of the coronavirus outbreak.
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  #2  
Old 04-07-2020, 03:07 PM
CBR1107 CBR1107 is offline
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What an idiot. Just like that pastor here in Louisiana.
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  #3  
Old 04-07-2020, 03:47 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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I try -- as best I can -- to see each side of a difference of opinion.

Here, I support both freedom and common sense, including duties towards others.

I suppose it becomes a question as to whether the "common sense" displayed here is pushing the boundaries of negligence, or even gross negligence, towards others. Freedom is what our Country is all about ... really, really important. But at some point, even freedom doesn't support negligence towards others, resulting in easily foreseeable harm to their health or loss of life.

Will be interested in others' thoughts, and respectful of each.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 04-07-2020 at 03:51 PM.
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  #4  
Old 04-07-2020, 03:59 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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We all know that our Constitutional right to basically do as we please is being temporarily infringed in the interest of national security. This isn't the first time in history that it's happened. Don't forget the mandatory blackouts during World War Two, for example. As long as there is a valid reason for it I don't think most of us mind. But if things get better and the government keeps restrictions in place then of course that's going to alarm many people. The Bundys unfortunately seem to like instigating trouble in the name of liberty, which is the last thing we need right now.
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  #5  
Old 04-07-2020, 04:16 PM
warbird1 warbird1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
We all know that our Constitutional right to basically do as we please is being temporarily infringed in the interest of national security. This isn't the first time in history that it's happened. Don't forget the mandatory blackouts during World War Two, for example. As long as there is a valid reason for it I don't think most of us mind. But if things get better and the government keeps restrictions in place then of course that's going to alarm many people. The Bundys unfortunately seem to like instigating trouble in the name of liberty, which is the last thing we need right now.
Agree on all points.
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  #6  
Old 04-07-2020, 04:46 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
I try -- as best I can -- to see each side of a difference of opinion.

Here, I support both freedom and common sense, including duties towards others.

I suppose it becomes a question as to whether the "common sense" displayed here is pushing the boundaries of negligence, or even gross negligence, towards others. Freedom is what our Country is all about ... really, really important. But at some point, even freedom doesn't support negligence towards others, resulting in easily foreseeable harm to their health or loss of life.

Will be interested in others' thoughts, and respectful of each.
I agree that both side have points and the correct position is somewhere between the two extremes.

To be honest the various governments and their agencies (state, Federal and Foreign) have not been entirely truthful or executed fool proof plans to halt the spread of the virus. Especially when you consider the money that FEMA, the CDC and many Federal and State agencies get specifically to study a potential pandemic and how to mitigate it. Frankly they have been reckless on some points, spot on on other points in mitigating the spread of the infection.

My biggest beef with the CDC, the Surgeon General, and WHO, has been their falsehood that it was unnecessary to wear face coverings for the first month this virus became news. During the entire month of March 2020, they unanimously stated that masks were unnecessary for Joe and Jane Public. I think that singularly is their biggest mistake, and the proof is that they then walked back their position after it was too damn late.

It wasn't until only a week ago that the CDC reversed its statement on mask... even if they only suggested cloth covering (not the N95).

If they had recommended very early on that people wear masks, First of March and keep a distance from each other, the two precautions could have had a greater result flattening the curve. It could have also saved the nation from such a widespread shutdown.

That is what we have seen in places like Taiwan and South Korea where the wearing of mask was commonly accepted for decades. That is why the Covid 19 is so successfully suppressed in those place. Both places are a model on how to handle a pandemic type pathogen.

So the fact that Ammond Bundy completely distrusts the government and anymore draconian measures that the government is imposing is understood; after all the they are literally putting businesses out of business, and rendering millions unemployed. However, unless he comes up with an alternative plan to keep the virus from going full blown pandemic, his actions may in fact make the government look smart, and it could backfire on those that dispute that the state has a constitutional power to do what it is doing.
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  #7  
Old 04-07-2020, 04:48 PM
SC shooter SC shooter is offline
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Freedom without common sense would be anarchy.

I meant to quote chrysanthemum's post above.
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Last edited by SC shooter; 04-07-2020 at 04:52 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-07-2020, 06:42 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is online now
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Bundy is a camera seeking doorknob.
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  #9  
Old 04-07-2020, 08:05 PM
earlwb earlwb is offline
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I think that there are lots of people there in Idaho with a deep distrust of the government. They just simply don't believe the government and anyone that even remotely is associated with the government.

I remember the Feds and their standoff at Ruby Ridge with the Weavers. It resulted in them shooting and killing a US Marshall and two of the Weavers.

The the Waco disaster that resulted in a large number of religious zealots committing suicide.

Bundy and his insurrection was of course another situation.

the Feds just don't seem to be very good at doing things without getting people killed in the process. it does have me wondering how many people will die if the Democrats ever get their way and ban most guns in the USA. They would have to send the SWAT teams to every home to confiscate the guns. it is a miracle every time the SWAT team goes to a home and doesn't shoot someone. Even if Congress approves the military to go house to house I think it would still result in many shootings happening.

Last edited by earlwb; 04-07-2020 at 08:10 PM. Reason: add more info
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  #10  
Old 04-07-2020, 08:38 PM
f1racefan f1racefan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter59 View Post
Bundy is a camera seeking doorknob.
Succinct and to the point.

But hey, it is America. If one big doorknob wants to lead a bunch of follower doorknobs into getting infected, and possibly exiting this life...liberty will have been exercised and Darwin's theory of natural selection will have been vindicated.
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  #11  
Old 04-07-2020, 09:23 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f1racefan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter59 View Post
Bundy is a camera seeking doorknob.
Succinct and to the point.

But hey, it is America. If one big doorknob wants to lead a bunch of follower doorknobs into getting infected, and possibly exiting this life...liberty will have been exercised and Darwin's theory of natural selection will have been vindicated.
Well said Sir!:-)
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  #12  
Old 04-08-2020, 01:11 PM
SC shooter SC shooter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earlwb View Post

I remember the Feds and their standoff at Ruby Ridge with the Weavers. It resulted in them shooting and killing a US Marshall and two of the Weavers.

The the Waco disaster that resulted in a large number of religious zealots committing suicide.
I remember that too. It was back when Bill was busy with Monica and gun hating Hillary was running the country.
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  #13  
Old 04-08-2020, 01:31 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earlwb View Post
I think that there are lots of people there in Idaho with a deep distrust of the government. They just simply don't believe the government and anyone that even remotely is associated with the government.

I remember the Feds and their standoff at Ruby Ridge with the Weavers. It resulted in them shooting and killing a US Marshall and two of the Weavers.

The the Waco disaster that resulted in a large number of religious zealots committing suicide.

Bundy and his insurrection was of course another situation.

the Feds just don't seem to be very good at doing things without getting people killed in the process. it does have me wondering how many people will die if the Democrats ever get their way and ban most guns in the USA. They would have to send the SWAT teams to every home to confiscate the guns. it is a miracle every time the SWAT team goes to a home and doesn't shoot someone. Even if Congress approves the military to go house to house I think it would still result in many shootings happening.
Indeed. All points.

One of my British friends always pronounced Waco as "Wacko"... all while not having any clue as to the American idiomatic meaning of "Wacko". An unintended double entendre.
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  #14  
Old 04-08-2020, 02:08 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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This is a really good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
We all know that our Constitutional right to basically do as we please is being temporarily infringed in the interest of national security. This isn't the first time in history that it's happened. Don't forget the mandatory blackouts during World War Two, for example. As long as there is a valid reason for it I don't think most of us mind. But if things get better and the government keeps restrictions in place then of course that's going to alarm many people. The Bundys unfortunately seem to like instigating trouble in the name of liberty, which is the last thing we need right now.
The casinos on the Atlantic City NJ waterfront. They did not want to dim their lights, despite the fact that they were silhouetting merchant ships. The German U-boat commanders loved it. They were eventually forced to kill the lights for that reason but they fought it tooth and nail.

This is not the first reference to this kind of thing that has come up here. My two cents worth in a another thread was that how upset do you really want to get at the idea of something being curtailed that you really do not want to partake of anyway?
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  #15  
Old 04-08-2020, 02:12 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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There's no enumerated Constitutional right to run a for profit, commercial business....

There ARE enumerated rights to keep and bear arms- and to peaceably assemble, as well as to freedoms of movements....

Using mandatory blackouts as a comparisons is aplles to crankshafts....
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Old 04-08-2020, 02:31 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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With all due respect Country.

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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
There's no enumerated Constitutional right to run a for profit, commercial business....

There ARE enumerated rights to keep and bear arms- and to peaceably assemble, as well as to freedoms of movements....

Using mandatory blackouts as a comparisons is aplles to crankshafts....
I think that you missed the point. That being that when a little bit of inconvenience to some can provide a great benefit to all. Why is it even questioned?

I think that this is what we are examining here, freedom and rights aside.
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Old 04-08-2020, 02:40 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I think that you missed the point. That being that when a little bit of inconvenience to some can provide a great benefit to all. Why is it even questioned?

I think that this is what we are examining here, freedom and rights aside.
And if you're willing to put rights aside, for a "great benefit to all", why not support banning private firearms ownership? Tens of thousands of lives annually will be spared- thats an absolute fact. Other crimes may increase, but homicide witha firearm as the mechanism would essentially cease....
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Old 04-08-2020, 03:22 PM
parallax parallax is offline
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All I remember is a crook who was grazing his cattle on federal land for 20+ years without paying grazing fees, and managed to get a lot of other "sovereign citizen" lemmings to follow him.
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Old 04-08-2020, 03:25 PM
parallax parallax is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
There's no enumerated Constitutional right to run a for profit, commercial business....

There ARE enumerated rights to keep and bear arms- and to peaceably assemble, as well as to freedoms of movements....
And there are UNENUMERATED RIGHTS, or does your copy of the Constitution not have the 9th amendment in it?

Amendment IX: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
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Old 04-08-2020, 03:27 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by parallax View Post
All I remember is a crook who was grazing his cattle on federal land for 20+ years without paying grazing fees, and managed to get a lot of other "sovereign citizen" lemmings to follow him.
Concur. Bundy is a criminal nut.... however, it doesn't change the principle....
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Old 04-08-2020, 03:32 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by parallax View Post
And there are UNENUMERATED RIGHTS, or does your copy of the Constitution not have the 9th amendment in it?

Amendment IX: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
It does contain the IX Amendment....

What unspecified "rights" are you suggesting may be being infringed upon?

Regardless, specified, enumerated rights, when they conflict with other, abstract, vague, non specified "rights" (which don't exist until a Court says otherwise) take precedence.
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  #22  
Old 04-08-2020, 04:49 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I did not say anything about putting rights aside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
And if you're willing to put rights aside, for a "great benefit to all", why not support banning private firearms ownership? Tens of thousands of lives annually will be spared- thats an absolute fact. Other crimes may increase, but homicide witha firearm as the mechanism would essentially cease....
I said putting up with some inconvenience, there is a huge difference.

Now who is comparing Apples to crankshafts as you put it?
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  #23  
Old 04-08-2020, 05:03 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I think that you missed the point. That being that when a little bit of inconvenience to some can provide a great benefit to all. Why is it even questioned?

I think that this is what we are examining here, freedom and rights aside.
This is what you said...., verbatim.

When it is a government order to limit assembly, or to restrict movement, or forcibly closing places where such things occur, it is casting aside very clearly enumerated rights....

If it is recommendations to do the same, with sound reasons for doing so, backed by transparency of information- you get essentially the same results, people will, by and large, choose to comply for their own well being. You get a ~90% solution- and zero government overreach.

The membership here flipped a lid when gun stores and government systems to process gun purchases were shut down as "non essential".... yet most meekly support government mandates that imposed lockdowns and public assemblies, and directly violate those clearly enumerated rights....

Bottom line:
ASK, and there's no issue.
ORDER, and its a clear violation of the Constitution.
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Old 04-08-2020, 05:25 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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That is correct.

I said freedoms and rights aside. That that is not the issue here. But that inconveniences for the greater good is what we are talking about. I did not say anything about freedoms and rights. As I clearly said, which you quoted, I put that aside Am I clear now?
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  #25  
Old 04-08-2020, 05:38 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I said freedoms and rights aside. That that is not the issue here. But that inconveniences for the greater good is what we are talking about. I did not say anything about freedoms and rights. As I clearly said, which you quoted, I put that aside Am I clear now?
If you're suggesting that those "inconveniences" be by government mandate or order, then yes, you're quite clear. When those ordered "inconveniences" use the Constitution as toilet paper (reasonable, given the current availability), its unlawfully. Period.

People CHOOSING to limited their movements, interactions, and assembly- WITHOUT the threat of "law', is another matter entirely....
Just because one would voluntary comply with such orders does not changes the equation.

Anyone who supports, in any way, such "orders" does not support the Constitution.... period. All they have is special interest support, cherry picking what rights they support, and those they will cast aside at the drop of a hat....

Bottom line remains unchanged- ORDERING vs ASKING.....
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