Break-in Question - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-06-2020, 08:54 PM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
Break-in Question

A friend of mine recently bought a S&W EZ 9mm. We have shot it a couple of times at the range, for a total of about 100 rounds. IMO it is very inaccurate--i.e. groups noticeably larger than with any gun I have ever shot, at a given distance. At 30 feet I expect to shoot groups with most shots touching. No chance with this thing; it shotguns.

So is 100 rounds enough to tell how it's going to shoot? I don't want her to get stuck with a lemon. No issues with function, just accuracy. IME, many guns begin to settle in fairly well with as little as 20 rounds through the pipe. IIRC my Rock 1911 shot very well from round 1.

Possibly it just needs cleaning. Anyone have experience with this particular gun and can comment on its accuracy?
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-06-2020, 08:58 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Texas
Posts: 11,572
If something is wrong with a new gun's accuracy, I rather doubt that further "break-in" time will cure the ills.

On occasion it is possible for an internal machining glitch to be present in the barrel. If -- just if -- that might be the case, it would certainly explain what you're describing.

I'd surely try cleaning the barrel (nothing to lose), but I'm not all that optimistic that that will cure the problem.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Life Member

"Freedom is only a temporary thing unless it is backed by the blunt capability and willingness to fight back against evil with sufficient arms." -- Myself

Last edited by chrysanthemum; 04-06-2020 at 09:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-06-2020, 09:20 PM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
If something is wrong with a new gun's accuracy, I rather doubt that further "break-in" time will cure the ills.

On occasion it is possible for an internal machining glitch to be present in the barrel. If -- just if -- that might be the case, it would certainly explain what you're describing.

I'd surely try cleaning the barrel (nothing to lose), but I'm not all that optimistic that that will cure the problem.
My thought exactly. Again because nothing to lose, I may polish the muzzle with my lapping kit. Also will try some SD ammo to give it the best chance to tighten up the groups.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:26 PM
dsk's Avatar
dsk dsk is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 70,205
In my experience Smith & Wesson doesn't make many one-hole wonders these days, at least as far as their poly semi-autos are concerned. My SD9VE, M&P 2.0C, and M&P 22C are all pretty ho-hum regarding accuracy. However while not match pistols they are still more than adequate for their intended use. If you can have yet another person try grouping with it, otherwise look at the muzzle crown to be sure there isn't a burr somewhere. Also try a different brand and weight of ammo. Just be sure it really is the gun and not you or the ammo before you start trying to fix things.
__________________
Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-06-2020, 11:10 PM
1911_Bandit 1911_Bandit is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Eastern Iowa
Posts: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
… I may polish the muzzle with my lapping kit ...
I have never heard of this. How does this increase accuracy?
__________________
No pulse, no problem.

Last edited by 1911_Bandit; 04-06-2020 at 11:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-07-2020, 02:46 AM
drail drail is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 15,168
Polishing isn't going to help. Have several people shoot it. If it shoots terribly for all of them then you have a problem. How much play is there in the barrel/slide fit (front and rear)?

Last edited by drail; 04-07-2020 at 02:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-07-2020, 04:21 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 7,836
Accuracy and S&W EZ 9mm pistol

Quote:
So is 100 rounds enough to tell how it's going to shoot? I don't want her to get stuck with a lemon.
It might be a "lemon!" However, I would try using some good 9mm match ammo, and rest the gun on sandbags and test it at 30 ft, just to remove any possibility of human error. I have had guns that shot some brands of ammo much better than other brands used in the same gun.....

If the gun is the S&W Shield EZ 9mm, any compact handgun is usually more difficult to shoot to obtain good accuracy due to the shorter sight radius. If the trigger pull is heavy and inconsistent each time the trigger is pressed, this may lead to bigger shot groups.....

Hopefully, the gun will shoot better with better ammo! If the gun is used for self defense as a purse gun, if it shoots a 3" group at 21 feet, that is not all that bad for a close quarter encounter......as long as the shooter has good marksmanship skills and can "hit where they aim!"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-07-2020, 08:09 AM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911_Bandit View Post
I have never heard of this. How does this increase accuracy?
What dsk said in post 4 about a burr problem on the muzzle. You want a uniformly smooth transition from the rifling to the non-rifled part at the muzzle.

MCarbo sells this simple muzzle lapping kit. Very simple to use.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-07-2020, 08:37 AM
1911_Bandit 1911_Bandit is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Eastern Iowa
Posts: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
What dsk said in post 4 about a burr problem on the muzzle. You want a uniformly smooth transition from the rifling to the non-rifled part at the muzzle.

MCarbo sells this simple muzzle lapping kit. Very simple to use.
Thanks for the link.
__________________
No pulse, no problem.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-07-2020, 08:55 AM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by drail View Post
1. Polishing isn't going to help.
2. Have several people shoot it. If it shoots terribly for all of them then you have a problem.
3. How much play is there in the barrel/slide fit (front and rear)?
1. Perhaps not, but I want to look at the muzzle with a magnifying glass to see if I want to polish it anyway. Can't hurt.
2. I know it's not me. I was doing my part when shooting it*. And unfortunately, both range employees who can shoot as well as me have also been laid off temporarily due to the Wuhan virus!
3. I'll check on that. Didn't notice a problem there when I took it apart for initial lubing.

* For example, here is my thread on shooting with my Spfld 911 .380. I can count on one hand the number of people I know who can shoot as well as me, and have a couple of fingers left over. Especially at 25 yards with the iron sights. Any gun. Talking about slow marksmanship shooting here, which is what I was doing with the EZ. Lotsa people can outshoot me at speed, because I haven't practiced combat shooting that much--so far. Of course I know that if I went to an actual serious competition like bullseye shooting, probably everyone would blow me away. I'm just a good club shooter.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 04-07-2020 at 09:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-07-2020, 09:30 AM
buck460XVR buck460XVR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: 'ell if I know
Posts: 985
I'd try some different ammo(good stuff), and let someone else shoot it, off a rest. I'd also like to know what your definition of "it shotguns" is. Personally, I wouldn't expect Match Grade accuracy from a sub $400 pistol. Is the new owner capable of accuracy better than what the gun will give her? If the gun is for SD/HD, I would be more concerned with function and reliability than Bullseye accuracy.

While I'm probably not the self-admitted expert shot like you are, I use handguns for my primary deer hunting firearms. That means I shoot a lot. Still, with any new platform, I have a learning curve. That learning curve generally takes more than a few rounds. If others have an issue, using different ammo, off a rest, then I would contact S&W.
__________________
Guns are like Harleys and Women. You can never have too many.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-07-2020, 10:01 AM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by buck460XVR View Post
I'd try some different ammo(good stuff), and let someone else shoot it, off a rest. I'd also like to know what your definition of "it shotguns" is. Personally, I wouldn't expect Match Grade accuracy from a sub $400 pistol. Is the new owner capable of accuracy better than what the gun will give her? If the gun is for SD/HD, I would be more concerned with function and reliability than Bullseye accuracy.

While I'm probably not the self-admitted expert shot like you are, I use handguns for my primary deer hunting firearms. That means I shoot a lot. Still, with any new platform, I have a learning curve. That learning curve generally takes more than a few rounds. If others have an issue, using different ammo, off a rest, then I would contact S&W.
Forgot to mention that we also shot her 20-round box of Rem HTP. Tighter groups than range ammo, but still not satisfactory. I know there are people here who don't think much of that brand, but I have found it to be very accurate and trouble-free in all calibers. I didn't measure groups, sorry; will do so next time, before and after muzzle lapping. At 21 feet I expect to see pretty much one hole, or maybe up to an inch grouping. This gun is producing maybe 3" groups! My Rock 1911 will easily do that at 75 feet. I've seen 1.5" for 3 of 4 shots at 75, and fairly commonly holes touching.

Shooting off a rest gives me only slightly tighter groups; so not a major indicator.

Granted the gun is for SD and great accuracy is not actually required for close-in situations. Maybe I'm being over-critical of it. The owner has shot a bit, but she is still a noob who needs a bit of coaching--grip, anticipation, etc. Coming along though.

My learning curve with an unfamiliar gun is very short, usually just grip and trigger pull weight. One mag is usually plenty.

Yeah I know I'm kinda proud of being able to shoot well, and do brag some; but it's based on results, not exaggeration. We all have egos. But false modesty is just as big a phony ego trip as false pride. I do try to keep things in perspective.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 04-07-2020 at 10:11 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-07-2020, 05:39 PM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
Went to my favorite LGS to hopefully score some good 9mm. No luck; they do have range ammo but no good stuff. All I have now in that caliber is range ammo, plus a couple of mags of Hornady CD for my 365 carry gun. Not gonna shoot that in her gun, becuz zombies, or something. Well, I might pump out five rounds from my spare mag.....

We're gonna go shoot it next Monday. She will drop by my house a little early so I can check it out for muzzle imperfections, and general barrel fit in the gun. Will polish the muzzle if needed.

So no update until the 14th.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-07-2020, 06:50 PM
dsk's Avatar
dsk dsk is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 70,205
Be careful what you do to it. If there are any obvious problems you should let S&W handle it under warranty rather than trying to fix it yourself.
__________________
Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-07-2020, 08:02 PM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Be careful what you do to it. If there are any obvious problems you should let S&W handle it under warranty rather than trying to fix it yourself.
Good point. I'll hold off on polishing the muzzle, so she has a more legit claim to send it in.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-07-2020, 08:08 PM
VetPsychWars VetPsychWars is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Greenfield WI
Posts: 1,083
My father and I both bought one of these, so I am interested.

Remember, clean every day for a week, every week for a month, well you know.

Lots of cheap 9mm ammo on the market. Make sure you get get a box of the best stuff.

Tom
__________________
2020 M&P EZ Shield 9
2015 Remington R1S
2017 Remington-UMC by Turnbull
1918 Colt
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-08-2020, 07:38 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
Forgot to mention that we also shot her 20-round box of Rem HTP. Tighter groups than range ammo, but still not satisfactory. I know there are people here who don't think much of that brand, but I have found it to be very accurate and trouble-free in all calibers. I didn't measure groups, sorry; will do so next time, before and after muzzle lapping. At 21 feet I expect to see pretty much one hole, or maybe up to an inch grouping. This gun is producing maybe 3" groups! My Rock 1911 will easily do that at 75 feet. I've seen 1.5" for 3 of 4 shots at 75, and fairly commonly holes touching.

Shooting off a rest gives me only slightly tighter groups; so not a major indicator.

Granted the gun is for SD and great accuracy is not actually required for close-in situations. Maybe I'm being over-critical of it. The owner has shot a bit, but she is still a noob who needs a bit of coaching--grip, anticipation, etc. Coming along though.

My learning curve with an unfamiliar gun is very short, usually just grip and trigger pull weight. One mag is usually plenty.

Yeah I know I'm kinda proud of being able to shoot well, and do brag some; but it's based on results, not exaggeration. We all have egos. But false modesty is just as big a phony ego trip as false pride. I do try to keep things in perspective.
3" groups at 30', slightly better off a rest???

You got a good one!

Its not a 1911, will never come close to one.
__________________
Ex-Military, 20+ years 3-Gun competitor, Colt certified Armorer, NRA Instructor, NSRT Officer-Retired, LGS Guru.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-08-2020, 08:43 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 848
For a self defense gun I almost always shoot at 12-15 yards at the range. If it works at that range it will work closer. I alternate two hand and strong hand grip. I expect all rounds to be in the "9" or better of a B52 target.

While I don't have cheap EDCs they are not that pricey. Usually an H&K or lately maybe a Sig P365. While I rarely carry a 1911 I would expect the same and better accuracy from them. My Dan Wesson and Sig 1911's are better.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-08-2020, 11:43 AM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
3" groups at 30', slightly better off a rest???
Nope, read again--3" groups at 21 feet. With good guns I expect half that, at most. If I'm doing my part, of course.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-08-2020, 01:00 PM
Johnny handgun's Avatar
Johnny handgun Johnny handgun is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: D.M. IA
Age: 61
Posts: 7,553
What weight bullets have you put on paper so far? It seems like a lot of the poly pistols like the lighter stuff but try it all to see if that helps.
__________________
Meet me, Jesus, meet me in the middle of the air, if my wings should fail me, Lord, please meet me with another pair, so I can die easy. *WWG1WGA*
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-08-2020, 03:37 PM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
115 grain. I have some 124 and 147 though.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-09-2020, 07:08 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
A friend of mine recently bought a S&W EZ 9mm. We have shot it a couple of times at the range, for a total of about 100 rounds. IMO it is very inaccurate--i.e. groups noticeably larger than with any gun I have ever shot, at a given distance. At 30 feet I expect to shoot groups with most shots touching. No chance with this thing; it shotguns.

So is 100 rounds enough to tell how it's going to shoot? I don't want her to get stuck with a lemon. No issues with function, just accuracy. IME, many guns begin to settle in fairly well with as little as 20 rounds through the pipe. IIRC my Rock 1911 shot very well from round 1.

Possibly it just needs cleaning. Anyone have experience with this particular gun and can comment on its accuracy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
Nope, read again--3" groups at 21 feet. With good guns I expect half that, at most. If I'm doing my part, of course.
What am I missing? you first say 30', then 21'? No matter. at either distance its no shotgun. Lol
__________________
Ex-Military, 20+ years 3-Gun competitor, Colt certified Armorer, NRA Instructor, NSRT Officer-Retired, LGS Guru.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-09-2020, 08:09 AM
1saxman 1saxman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 14,991
Paper plate at 30' is good enough for one of these cheap shorties. If the shooter decided to take such a 'long shot' and thought they could justify it in court, the assailant would certainly be hit in the torso, assuming the shooter did their job. I typically use 15 yds (45') for pistols and if I can get it shooting into that paper plate with a roughly-centered group, I'm pretty much okay.
Now with a 1911 or pistol with fixed barrel, I'm looking for 3" or less at that distance. Never forget the time I took my PT1911 to the range after refinishing it and installing night sights. I installed the sights based on the old sight positions and a little speculation, knowing how it had been shooting.
I set out a target at 15 yards consisting of a 1" stick-on dot on a piece of paper, and cut the edge of the dot with the first shot (usually my best shot). The guys next to me said 'Somebody knows how to shoot'. Funny, because I really don't - just get lucky sometimes.
My little 'shorty' 9mm is a Kel Tec P11 that I thought was not capable of hitting the broad side of a barn. I took it with me to a son's house in another state and we went to the range to shoot some pistols. He took the Kel Tec and shot it straight as an arrow - I couldn't believe it. So when I got home, armed with the knowledge that it was me all along, I rapidly improved on it just from knowing it was possible.
__________________
The Old Dominion
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-09-2020, 08:43 AM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
What am I missing? you first say 30', then 21'? No matter. at either distance its no shotgun. Lol
In post 1, I mentioned 30 feet, true. But in post 12, the one you quoted in your post 17, I mentioned 21 feet. Hope this clears it up. Sorry for any unintended confusion.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-09-2020, 02:45 PM
TominMO's Avatar
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 576
For reference, this is what I expect out of a gun, with good ammo. Installed a front night sight on my Rock 1911 .45, a 5" Pro Match Ultra.
Shooting Remington HTP 185gr JHP, to check alignment; 20' and 30' targets.
It turned out to be spot on (pic 1). Second 30' shot blew away the 1" orange sticky. Muffed the 3rd shot.
The 50' group looked like the 30' one but about 2" low due to distance (sights set for this ammo at 30').
At 75', not too good; of 14 shots, ten were nicely centered but too much vertical. Closest nine shots were 4.5" vertically by 1.5" horizontally. But at least it proved the sights were right, which was the point of today's range visit.

Also was sighting in my Glock 17 (pic 2), which I just stuck Truglo night sights on. Range ammo--CCI Blazer 115gr, 5 shots at 20'. First group shot today. Third pic was from a few years ago, before I lernd how to shoot gooder. The G17 at 50 yards, Rem HTP, stock sights/trigger.

Edit: Pic 4 is the Rock sightin at 75'. This also includes three shots at 50', bottom center, obliterated by four at 75'. POA was center of the 2" black stickon. You can read my various errors. For all shots, 7.5" vertical and 6.75" horizontal. Tossing the highest and rightest shots gives 4.5" vertical and 4.25" horizontal for 12 of 14. But the only ones I'm happy with are the five low-center shots; 1.8" OTO.
Attached Thumbnails
Rock sightin.JPG   G17 sightin.JPG   Glock50yds.JPG   Rock sightin 75ft.JPG  
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 04-10-2020 at 10:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:53 AM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved