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  #26  
Old 04-03-2020, 08:45 PM
passx passx is offline
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Personally I think any of the “defense” ammo is a total waste, be it +p, +p+ or whatever, most of generates enough recoil that it limits accuracy.

The mantra I subscribe to is shot placement, shot placement, shot-placement, more important to hit your target than making the bullet go faster,,,,my .02
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  #27  
Old 04-03-2020, 08:52 PM
INV136 INV136 is offline
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I don't know about +P .45 ACP, but, I have a NHC all steel 10mm 1911 that I shoot Underwood Ammo Xtreme Penetrator ammo out of and it works just fine. Underwood Ammo is full power 10mm ammunition. All of the other brands of factory 10mm (except maybe Double Tap) load under powered 10mm cartridges that are comparable to .40 S&W cartridge ballistics.
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  #28  
Old 04-03-2020, 09:02 PM
INV136 INV136 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
Personally I think any of the “defense” ammo is a total waste, be it +p, +p+ or whatever, most of generates enough recoil that it limits accuracy.

The mantra I subscribe to is shot placement, shot placement, shot-placement, more important to hit your target than making the bullet go faster,,,,my .02
You have a valid point, if you were only shooting at paper targets at the range that don't move, don't shoot back and don't use cover or concealment. In the real world, you shoot at whatever part of the bad guy's anatomy that presents itself. If you can only see an arm or a leg or foot, then that's what you shoot at.

In law enforcement, they train you to shoot at the center of mass. Because a threat is not going to be standing still while engaged in a gunfight to kill you. If you aim at center of mass you have a better chance of hitting the threat, since the threat will be moving and trying to not get shot himself, all while trying to kill you.

If you are a sniper and are shooting at a person from 800 yards, then you can take your time and use shot placement to drop that target as quickly and efficiently as possible because the target doesn't know you are there and you have the luxury of shot placement. In an up and personal situation where the threat knows you are there and is trying to kill you, you take the shots that are available to you in the instant.

One thing that I noticed during firearms training, especially tactical firearms training, in situations where you have only split seconds to take your shot(s), your accuracy decreases with stress and time limitations. If you only fire when you have a vital area of the threat's body in your sights, then you're going to get yourself killed wasting time waiting to get that vital spot in your sights. The threat is not going to be standing still like a target waiting for you to fire that kill shot.

Even skilled knife fighters, when faced with a moderately skilled knife fighter, will forego attempting to attack well guarded vital areas and attempt to inflict as much damage on the hands/arms, fingers or any where else they can strike, to cause blood loss/tissue damage and weaken their opponent enough that they can win the fight.

Last edited by INV136; 04-03-2020 at 09:06 PM. Reason: additional info
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  #29  
Old 04-03-2020, 09:13 PM
pepe1 pepe1 is offline
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
I'm from St. Louis too and yeah, that IS a dumb kweschun. If a .45 ACP isn't powerful enough for you then just buy a .44 Magnum and stop fooling around with this piddly military junk......... The irony here is that the guys who designed the .45 ACP were working on one goal - to design a cartridge that would drop an enemy cavalryman's HORSE because soldiers were for the most part still riding horses at that time. The rounds were tested on steers and horses (and a few human cadavers hanging from a rope). If it will drop a horse it will almost certainly work pretty well on a human. +P is mostly just marketing and it WILL shorten the service life of your gun if you shoot enough of it. You don't need it - standard pressure loads will do a fine job if you can place them where they need to go. If you cannot then caliber does not matter at all.
There are no dumb questions. Sometimes there are dumb answers.
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  #30  
Old 04-03-2020, 09:45 PM
45ofcourse 45ofcourse is offline
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Originally Posted by david_root2000 View Post
Just a note. Hornady shows 4.8 as MAX titegroup for a 230 grain bullet.

David

Sure you can use +P.
And I should have mentioned my 5 gr is 200 swc. Dont mean to steer anyone into dangerous ground
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  #31  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:37 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Originally Posted by passx View Post
Personally I think any of the “defense” ammo is a total waste, be it +p, +p+ or whatever, most of generates enough recoil that it limits accuracy.

The mantra I subscribe to is shot placement, shot placement, shot-placement, more important to hit your target than making the bullet go faster,,,,my .02
It depends on the gun and caliber. A +P .38 Special round is definitely more stout than a simple range or target load, but it is far more effective. In a 4" steel-framed revolver it should still be very controllable, but if you're shooting a 2" Airweight Smith you may find a +P .38 is too hard to easily control. I use +P ammo in my 9mm SIG P365, but for some people the recoil may be too harsh in such a small pistol so they're better off with standard-pressure ammo. You use what's reliable and what you can shoot accurately first and foremost. You worry about whether it's nuclear-tipped a distant second.
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  #32  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:38 PM
TRX302 TRX302 is offline
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Clark Custom has a list of "not recommended" 1911s for their .460 Rowland conversions. They developed the list the hard way, by tracking customer guns that had problems.
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  #33  
Old 04-03-2020, 11:17 PM
1911crazy 1911crazy is offline
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I mainly shoot Russian wolf 45acp ball ammo or 230 gr rn leadcast.

Back in the late 70’s my new colt gov series 70 the sites came loose from the hammering it took constantly shooting hot reloads. I hot loaded those Speer jhp soup bowl bullets. Lessons learned you must adjust your recoil spring to the hotter loads.
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  #34  
Old 04-03-2020, 11:30 PM
Markbo Markbo is offline
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Hers how I look at it. 1911s handle 10mm and .460 Rowland which are both a lot higher velocity and pressure so why wouldn't it handle a magazine or two per range trip? I Use standard ball ammo to practice with and shoot one or two mags of chosen carry ammo to confirm point of impact. Works for me.
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  #35  
Old 04-04-2020, 07:54 AM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Since you're asking: "in general" I would say yes, any modern 1911 in good working order from a repuatable manufacturer should be able to handle +p pressures...

I keep a mag of it in EVERY 1911 as a self-defense round (200gr. Cor-Bon "flying ashtrays"), but I WOULDN'T feed a pistol a steady diet of that at the range and such.
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  #36  
Old 04-04-2020, 09:06 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
Mainly I was asking as an academic question; for example if I accidentally bought a box of +P, not noticing that it wasn't the standard-pressure stuff, would it be safe to shoot it in a 1911.
I think it would be better to read the label than to study the gun's specs.
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  #37  
Old 04-04-2020, 09:36 AM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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Originally Posted by Sierra 49er View Post
Seems like the match load of 45 ACP using 8 gr of Titegroup with a 230 grain RN works just fine..
8 gr of titegroup with a 230 gr bullet? Holy cow. I was under the impression that titegroup is a pretty fast powder.

How's the brass look?

Side note, I've got thousands of S&B brass that was loaded HOT! These primers are completely squashed flat and super hard to deprime. I'm new to reloading, so there is that, but no primers in 45 have ever looked anything like these S&B cases I've got. Pretty sure it's factory ammo too.
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  #38  
Old 04-04-2020, 09:42 AM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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Originally Posted by Markbo View Post
Hers how I look at it. 1911s handle 10mm and .460 Rowland which are both a lot higher velocity and pressure so why wouldn't it handle a magazine or two per range trip? I Use standard ball ammo to practice with and shoot one or two mags of chosen carry ammo to confirm point of impact. Works for me.
Sure, but that's apples to oranges. The platform can eat 10mm, but it's the barrel that's doing all the work.
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  #39  
Old 04-04-2020, 09:43 AM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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I saw Chrono results yesterday where +p gold dots were actually slower than regular gold dots. Ponder that.
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  #40  
Old 04-04-2020, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiesaun View Post
I saw Chrono results yesterday where +p gold dots were actually slower than regular gold dots. Ponder that.
+P ammo usually gets its extra velocity by using a slower-burning powder. In a short-barreled pistol where the powder doesn't get enough time to burn I can easily see that happening.
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  #41  
Old 04-04-2020, 11:03 AM
Boston Bill Boston Bill is offline
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Magnum Primers

Quote:
Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
Mainly I was asking as an academic question; for example if I accidentally bought a box of +P, not noticing that it wasn't the standard-pressure stuff, would it be safe to shoot it in a 1911. Never said I felt the need for more a more powerful round, or handgun. A couple of people jumped to that conclusion on their own; but re-reading my first post, I can see why.

I think any .45ACP HP would do fine for SD; and ball too, for that matter. I'm inclined to HP due to over-penetration concerns with ball; but maybe that is not so much of a concern with a relatively slow, wider 230gr bullet, compared to a faster 9mm round.

Fortunately, in my own mind I am the greatest shot ever, so missing is not possible..... My Rock (5" Pro Match Ultra) will do 2" groups or less (3 of 4 shots) at 25 yards with Rem HTP 185gr JHP, if I have my act together. Most of the time that would be my SD round, with Hornady Critical Defense used for winter (heavy coats, open HP clogging up). Never shot anyone and hope to keep it that way of course.
You made me laugh. What do I do with the 1k magnum primers I bought. I load my 45 acp l
on the lighter side. Is it ok to use the magnum primers instead of the regular primers?
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  #42  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:10 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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All full loaded 10MM is essentially +P - and sometimes a little more. Colt used a Delrin recoil spring guide as a "permanent but replacable ShokBuff" and dual springs giving up around 22lbs.

So, in a steel framed 5" with enough spring, I cannot imagine a problem. Make sure your springs are good (change if unsure), I would use 18lb. for a +P in a .45ACP. And when practicing with warm stuff, use a ShokBuff - never carry with one installed (shortens slide stroke). Also, change out your firing pin spring with an "extra power" and change it when you change recoil springs.

Another good upgrade is to install a "flat bottomed" firing pin stop from EGW or Harrison - returns the 1911 to it's original John Moses Browning design as it originally was issued to the US Armed Forces, and handles the recoil forces better. Many users report better controlability and your brass doesn't go into the next county. This is slightly tuneable - the angle controls the effect, so study a bit first before installing or have a gunsmith do it. CC
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  #43  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:22 PM
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Thanks to all, excellent informative thread. Keep it up.

My fave LGS has this Rock 10mm that is calling to me, $679. Don't "need" it, but you know how that goes.....love the double-stack grip. 16+1! No bothering with a spare mag in the pocket.
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Last edited by TominMO; 04-04-2020 at 03:29 PM.
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  #44  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:32 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiesaun View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markbo View Post
Hers how I look at it. 1911s handle 10mm and .460 Rowland which are both a lot higher velocity and pressure so why wouldn't it handle a magazine or two per range trip? I Use standard ball ammo to practice with and shoot one or two mags of chosen carry ammo to confirm point of impact. Works for me.
Sure, but that's apples to oranges. The platform can eat 10mm, but it's the barrel that's doing all the work.
No........not at all.
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  #45  
Old 04-04-2020, 06:04 PM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
+P ammo usually gets its extra velocity by using a slower-burning powder. In a short-barreled pistol where the powder doesn't get enough time to burn I can easily see that happening.
That makes a lot of sense actually.
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  #46  
Old 04-04-2020, 06:06 PM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
No........not at all.
You're suggesting that the chamber and barrel are not what contains the pressure? Of course they are.
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  #47  
Old 04-04-2020, 06:37 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by jamiesaun View Post
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
No........not at all.
You're suggesting that the chamber and barrel are not what contains the pressure? Of course they are.
It's not what is allowing the gun to use 10mm levels of recoil force without battering itself to death no. I dare you to drop the springs in a 10mm gun down to 9mm target weights and see how much the gun is beat up, the barrel doesn't do any work in terms of preventing things from being beat up unless it has expansion chamber(s) at the end.
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  #48  
Old 04-04-2020, 06:49 PM
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A 1911 frame is fairly thin in most areas and flexes quite a bit during recoil. With super-hot loads eventually it'll crack at the dust cover junction and possibly the slide stop cutout as well. With the low-pressure, non +P .45ACP rounds the frame simply isn't subject to the same level of pounding and will normally last tens of thousands of rounds. If +P loads gave me something the standard-pressure .45 rounds didn't I'd consider using them, but they don't so I won't.
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  #49  
Old 04-05-2020, 12:58 AM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
It's not what is allowing the gun to use 10mm levels of recoil force without battering itself to death no. I dare you to drop the springs in a 10mm gun down to 9mm target weights and see how much the gun is beat up, the barrel doesn't do any work in terms of preventing things from being beat up unless it has expansion chamber(s) at the end.
Agreed. But the springs are tunable, so to speak. What determines if a gun can shoot a hot load is the chamber support and the strength of the barrel. Not the springs
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  #50  
Old 04-05-2020, 01:12 AM
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My department issues the HST 230g +p, never a problem.
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