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  #1  
Old 04-02-2020, 09:09 PM
Lab4Us Lab4Us is offline
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An Article Some May Like

Just came across this, thought Id share...

https://www.businessinsider.com/anni...sidearm-2020-4
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  #2  
Old 04-02-2020, 10:27 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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I would have to agree largely with the gist of the article - Thanks!
I always thought Colonel Jeff Cooper nailed it when he said the Beretta 92 was way too big a pistol for the little 9MM cartridge.

What the author may not know is that the M1911 was actually replaced by the Italian Beretta as part of a "Sweetheart (Politics) Deal" - if the United States would buy Millions of dollars worth of Italian pistols, Italy would in turn sign on to the F-16 Eurofighter deal, AND Allow us to put intermediate range Nuclear Missles on Italian soil pointed at the Russians......
So the change had nothing to do with "interoperability" of the mediocre 9MM cartridge (who worries about exchanging handgun ammo on a battlefield?) - and everything to do with US/Italian Politics! And still we kept the substandard Beretta for 30 years! And we are still saddled with the puny 9MM. CC
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  #3  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:02 PM
JB6464 JB6464 is offline
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If I was ever called back to duty and was given a choice I would still carry a M1911 over a 9mm any day of the week .
Even though it carries less in the magazine , I know it will get the job done .
And lets be honest , if your down to using your sidearm in a firefight your odds are already against you and you better looking for a quick escape route .
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  #4  
Old 04-03-2020, 05:29 AM
1911turbo 1911turbo is offline
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Drink every time the author says "stopping power".
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Old 04-03-2020, 06:39 AM
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Comrade 1911turbo, why you hev "John Browning" in Cyrillic?
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Old 04-03-2020, 07:03 AM
1911turbo 1911turbo is offline
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Comrade 1911turbo, why you hev "John Browning" in Cyrillic?
I needed big red letters to find my posts easier Might as well use my native tongue while at it.
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Old 04-03-2020, 07:03 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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KGB....ya??
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Old 04-03-2020, 08:16 AM
1911turbo 1911turbo is offline
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KGB....ya??
I could tell you but then I'd have to introduce you to a 7.6238mmR round.





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  #9  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:00 AM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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The old pistols were due for an upgrade eventually. The newest ones were built in 1945. The M9 isn't a bad pistol at all, aside from being a little on the bulky side. I always thought the S&W 459 would've been a good choice. I don't know how well it held it's own against the Beretta and Sig towards the end of trials though. I just enjoy seeing American designed handguns in use. The Beretta broke that tradition.
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  #10  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
I would have to agree largely with the gist of the article - Thanks!
I always thought Colonel Jeff Cooper nailed it when he said the Beretta 92 was way too big a pistol for the little 9MM cartridge.

What the author may not know is that the M1911 was actually replaced by the Italian Beretta as part of a "Sweetheart (Politics) Deal" - if the United States would buy Millions of dollars worth of Italian pistols, Italy would in turn sign on to the F-16 Eurofighter deal, AND Allow us to put intermediate range Nuclear Missles on Italian soil pointed at the Russians......
So the change had nothing to do with "interoperability" of the mediocre 9MM cartridge (who worries about exchanging handgun ammo on a battlefield?) - and everything to do with US/Italian Politics! And still we kept the substandard Beretta for 30 years! And we are still saddled with the puny 9MM. CC
I have a copy of the official GAO report on the M9 controversy that was published in the late 1980s. It actually mentioned your claims and concluded that those clams were unfounded. Unless of course you still don't believe the government...

I was enjoying the author's article until he started interjecting his personal opinions and began bashing the M9. A lot of people in the military wanted to hate the M9, and the claims of unreliability are either greatly exaggerated or easily explained. They're really no different than the complaints leveled against the M1911A1 in the early 80s when a bunch of people in the military badly wanted to get rid of it. The fact is the M9 was a very capable service weapon if maintained properly, which it often wasn't.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:06 AM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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I don't have as much of a beef with the 9mm round, in this application, as many other guys do.

Yes, I agree it's not as good as .45 but it does have it's advantages. This is why it's the go-to for the vast majority of the police & military organizations on earth. It's THE round.

I also agree that the M9 seemed like an unnecessarily big & bulky choice.

Overall, I think that if I was carrying 100 lbs of Kevlar & assorted crap into battle (more than a Knight's armor weighed, and they were mounted!)------- I'd want the current Sig and an M4.

Not a Garand & a 1911.

I think the Beretta was a poor choice. And that the Sig is a good one. And that's an easy call to make from my leather swivel chair in my home office.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:18 AM
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I think if the 9mm round was truly as bad as some say it is it would never have become NATO standard and used by virtually every other western military for the past 80 years. Nobody except the USA and some Latin American countries ever used the .45ACP for any length of time, unless the weapons were given to them for free by us. It is true that a .45 ball round has a better chance of stopping an enemy with one shot than does a 9mm ball round, but most users with any intelligence know that what you hit them with isn't nearly as important as hitting them where it counts.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911turbo View Post
I needed big red letters to find my posts easier Might as well use my native tongue while at it.
Bueno, mon ami. Da svidanya.
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Old 04-03-2020, 12:42 PM
ronbwolf ronbwolf is offline
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The .45 acp round in fmj is superior to the 9mm fmj, and the "stopping power" debate has been beat to death. The improvements in metallurgy for bullets has definitely increased the viability of using 9mm for SD. I still adhere to Col. Coopers "at least .40 caliber, 200 grains or more, and 1000 + fps." That said, I have been carrying a 9mm DW edc while waiting for my 10mm commander that was built by Fusion Arms. I have to say that the accuracy, low recoil, even with Underwoods 147 grain load, is far more pleasant that the larger calibers. I received my 10mm, and I am "wringing it out," and still carrying my DW. As for the Beretta, I don't fish, so I have no need for a fish weight!

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  #15  
Old 04-03-2020, 02:12 PM
Sierra 49er Sierra 49er is offline
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Nothing against the 9mm and its upgrades. However, that said, the 45 ACP does not need upgrades to do the job - so I'll stick to the 1911 45 ACP.
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  #16  
Old 04-03-2020, 02:28 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Yes, if you don't have to carry 95+ pounds of other stuff already, yes, a single stack steel .45 1911 is doable. Ah, the luxuries of being a civilian.
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  #17  
Old 04-03-2020, 04:08 PM
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A loaded M1911A1 and two spare magazines is about the same weight as a loaded M9 and two spare magazines. The difference is one gives you 21 rounds to fight with while the other one gives you 45.
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:08 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
I think if the 9mm round was truly as bad as some say it is it would never have become NATO standard and used by virtually every other western military for the past 80 years.
It became the NATO standard because it has been in-use in Euroland since WWI. They have lots of ammo and even their SMGs are/were chambered in that caliber, so there was no reason to change. Economics and apathy out-trumps effectiveness every time.
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:12 PM
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Well, if there's no reason to change then that means it's really not that bad, right? Had our European allies felt the 9mm was inadequate they could just as easily have adopted the .45ACP instead.
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:48 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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It's about compromise. Where do you see the balance point?

Is the the Keltec PMR 30 the best defensive choice because it has a giant heap of .22 onboard? --------- probably not.

Is a .500 Nitro Express Howda Pistol the best choice because it has two shots that could drop a Cape Buffalo? --------------- probably not.

But 9mm strikes a pretty good balance between capacity & power.

And I believe that on a battlefield your adversary is more likely to stand & fight, if not actually advance, under fire.

Whereas in our civilian world there is little to compel our attackers to do that. And plenty to compel them to run the heck away.

So I expect that extra capacity trumps extra power in military use. Running low on, or out of, ammo is a very realistic concern in warfare.

Not so much when fighting carjackers in Scranton. So yes, carry a .45 when stateside. And a 9mm when dropping into Afghanistan.
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Old 04-03-2020, 05:58 PM
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When the 1911 was King of the Battlefield its adversaries were mostly armed with bolt-action rifles and single-stack 9mm Luger (or 8mm Nambu) pistols. Today's battlefield involves a whole helluva lot more bullets sailing back and forth, and our forces are more likely to be outnumbered and rely on force multipliers to gain the upper hand. A seven-shot pistol is not ideal in today's combat environment, because you're up against multiple adversaries with AK-47s, RPGs, portable automatic weapons and high-cap 9mm pistols.

In home defense or when stopping a couple thugs in a parking lot, you've got the advantage of carrying your personal 1911 with one in the pipe and modern magazines giving you nine shots, plus you get to carry hollow points giving your .45 even more stopping power. That is usually more than adequate for any conceivable personal defense scenario.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #22  
Old 04-03-2020, 06:05 PM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Handguns in general really have a limited place in warfare. The adoption of the M17 was far more redundant than the adoption of the M9. There is really no need to update handgun designs constantly. There are some places still using Hi Powers.
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  #23  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:25 PM
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Handguns in general really have a limited place in warfare. The adoption of the M17 was far more redundant than the adoption of the M9. There is really no need to update handgun designs constantly. There are some places still using Hi Powers.
Agreed. While the M17 is a decent handgun there is really very little it can do that a railed M9A1 can't. I remember reading an article on a British website about how the British Army's new Glock 17s were so much more powerful and effective than the old Hi-Powers they replaced. Yeah, a 17-shot 9mm is so much more powerful and effective than a 13-shot 9mm. The bad guy on the other end of it wouldn't even know the difference.

By the way, the popular notion that the M1911A1 remained our service pistol for 74 years because it was the most badass handgun on the planet is false. It remained so because 2.5 million were made during two world wars, leaving the government with such a large surplus that there was never enough of a reason to junk all of them and get something better. The Army badly wanted to go with a smaller, lighter pistol in 9mm right after the end of World War Two, but they could never convince the bean counters that it was really necessary to spend the money on what was a very minor weapon in the arsenal.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #24  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:38 PM
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The Army badly wanted to go with a smaller, lighter pistol in 9mm right after the end of World War Two, but they could never convince the bean counters that it was really necessary to spend the money on what was a very minor weapon in the arsenal.
So they spent the money and replaced em' all... but only went smaller and lighter on the ammo?!?!?
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:25 PM
wildphil wildphil is online now
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Are soldiers required to carry a handgun? I would think that another magazine or two for their rifle would be preferred over a handgun for around the same carry weight. I know that a few assignments a handgun is probably adequate. But it seems to me that a handgun is not needed at all for most military uses. I am not a military person and may be all wrong. But I know that if I were ever in a situation and there was any gunplay that I would prefer to be armed with a rifle.
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