How To Get Your 9mm Gun To Shoot As Flat As Possible - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-01-2020, 08:20 PM
Steven1127 Steven1127 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 139
How To Get Your 9mm Gun To Shoot As Flat As Possible

Using an off the shelf 9mm 4.25" barrel gun, what "mechanical" things yield the most bang for the buck in terms of getting that gun to shoot flatter? Different recoil spring? Hammer spring? Different factory ammo weight? Something else? A combo of things. I'm not asking about gunsmithing type stuff...just things that can be bought and swapped out (without changing the type of barrel).

This post isn't meant to go down the stance/grip/trigger pull route.

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-01-2020, 08:37 PM
vortec vortec is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 505
Flat trajectory is usually obtained by lighter and faster bullets. Riflemen have been doing that for years. I don't see where any mechanical changes on the gun would have any impact (pun intended) on "flatter shooting".
__________________
Vortec
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-01-2020, 08:41 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Texas
Posts: 11,553
^^^

This. Bullet drop over x yards distance is a function of the bullet's characteristics and velocity.

A longer barrel can yield somewhat higher velocity, but that's probably about it in regard to the firearm itself.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Life Member

"Freedom is only a temporary thing unless it is backed by the blunt capability and willingness to fight back against evil with sufficient arms." -- Myself

Last edited by chrysanthemum; 03-01-2020 at 08:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 03-01-2020, 08:52 PM
Trucker3573 Trucker3573 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 39
I am actually thinking the OP isn’t referring to bullet trajectory but muzzle flip???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-01-2020, 08:53 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,984
Compensator.
__________________
Carry gun:Wilson Carry Comp Custom .45S Pocket carry:on loan Other 1911s:WC Supergrade Accucomp .38, WC BW Opticomp, WC CQB Compact, WC CQB Professional, WC Super Sentinel, WC CQB Elite 9mm, WC EDC X9, WC X9S, Ed Brown SR, NHC Predator II Opticomp, NHC T3 Hardchrome, Kimber Ultra, ATI Tactical, RIA Tactical 10mm, Kimber Ultra Diamond 9mm, Detonics Combat Master MKVI, Colt Centennial .460 Roland
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-01-2020, 09:28 PM
anonymouscuban anonymouscuban is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Age: 49
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trucker3573 View Post
I am actually thinking the OP isn’t referring to bullet trajectory but muzzle flip???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yup. I also think this is what he meant. He wants to reduce recoil.

Compensator or learn to manage the recoil.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-02-2020, 04:40 AM
Flight Medic's Avatar
Flight Medic Flight Medic is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,544
Add weight to the end of the barrel? I noticed less muzzle flip once I added a Surefire weapon light to one of my pistols. And my Monolith Heavyweight has less flip than any of my other 5" .45 1911s.

If that's indeed what you meant.


There's also products like this...

https://zahal.org/all-categories/gun...g-systems-dpm/
__________________
KAG - VOTE TRUMP 2020

Last edited by Flight Medic; 03-02-2020 at 06:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-02-2020, 06:19 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,905
Comp and light as mentioned above, but also lower power factors (MXV)...Most of the 9mm 115 gr ball stuff is super mild. Only 9 I have is a PPQ (and only in 4"), cheeze, the 115 gr ball loads don't raise the muzzle at all. First time I shot the gun with these loads I thought I was getting squib loads (true story).

Unless you are running in the open class, or looking to run 9 major, I would think you can solve all your muzzle rise issues just with loading (use the "comp" money to buy more ammo).

If you are speaking for SD, I use HST (regular, not +P) 147 gr. It induces a little muzzle rise in my PPQ but not much. I would suspect the lower grain/power factory 9mm SD loads, even less.
__________________
Member: NRA, GOA, ANJRPC, VCDL.
"To be born free is an accident. To live free is a responsibility. To die free is an obligation."-Gen. Halley.
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." –Ulysses
Ekeibolon - Jeff Cooper

Last edited by combat auto; 03-02-2020 at 06:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-02-2020, 06:34 AM
Steven1127 Steven1127 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 139
I am in fact asking about recoil/muzzle flip. Let's eliminate comps or lights as to possible suggestions. Now what are your thoughts?

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-02-2020, 06:42 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven1127 View Post
I am in fact asking about recoil/muzzle flip. Let's eliminate comps or lights as to possible suggestions. Now what are your thoughts?

Thanks
Loading as I mentioned above...Don't underestimate loading, even in 45 low PF-loading can make it feel like a 9mm as far as recoil.

To help us help you, what 9mm practice/match ammo, and what SD/HP ammo are you using now? Need to know the grains and velocity for each type..Loading is an easy way to address this issue (recoil spring changes sometimes needed), I would expect folks would like to know what ammo you are using if they are going to suggest mechanic changes to you gun (spring weight, etc).
__________________
Member: NRA, GOA, ANJRPC, VCDL.
"To be born free is an accident. To live free is a responsibility. To die free is an obligation."-Gen. Halley.
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." –Ulysses
Ekeibolon - Jeff Cooper

Last edited by combat auto; 03-02-2020 at 06:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-02-2020, 07:03 AM
Steven1127 Steven1127 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Loading as I mentioned above...Don't underestimate loading, even in 45 low PF-loading can make it feel like a 9mm as far as recoil.

To help us help you, what 9mm practice/match ammo, and what SD/HP ammo are you using now? Need to know the grains and velocity for each type..Loading is an easy way to address this issue (recoil spring changes sometimes needed), I would expect folks would like to know what ammo you are using if they are going to suggest mechanic changes to you gun (spring weight, etc).
When you say "loading", I'm not sure if you literally mean loading my own ammo or just what kind of ammo I'm using. I don't load and don't plan on loading so I'm talking about off the shelf ammo. Most of my ammo has been Federal, Winchester White, Fiocchi or Speer Lawman 115gr or 124gr FMJ. Just range stuff, not for competing or SD (I live in NJ and we can't carry).
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-02-2020, 07:16 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven1127 View Post
When you say "loading", I'm not sure if you literally mean loading my own ammo or just what kind of ammo I'm using. I don't load and don't plan on loading so I'm talking about off the shelf ammo. Most of my ammo has been Federal, Winchester White, Fiocchi or Speer Lawman 115gr or 124gr FMJ. Just range stuff, not for competing or SD (I live in NJ and we can't carry).
Loading can be either, your own, or factory...I don't roll my own either, today their are lots of choices out there so often one can find a factory load which suits one's needs (albeit, reloading gives one the most flexibility).

What are the velocities on those two ball loads?

Ex., I run PMC ball 115Gr 1150fps which = a 133 power factor. As mentioned above it doesn't induce any noticeable amount of rise in the muzzle on my 4" plastic PPQ...

Not sure if there are lighter PF loads from factory then this though, maybe someone else would know.

If your 115 gr is similiar to the PMC, perhapes someone can recomend a recoil spring change to you (maybe I don't know if it would make much of a difference)...What weight 9mm recoil spring do you have in their now?
__________________
Member: NRA, GOA, ANJRPC, VCDL.
"To be born free is an accident. To live free is a responsibility. To die free is an obligation."-Gen. Halley.
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." –Ulysses
Ekeibolon - Jeff Cooper

Last edited by combat auto; 03-02-2020 at 07:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-02-2020, 07:18 AM
Culpepper Cattle Co. Culpepper Cattle Co. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,003
OP, you aren't making this easy eliminating any gunsmithing approach or items to bolt on and add weight. Properly tuning 1911s isn't generally modular or swappable, but given your stated parameters:

Select one and only one make of ammunition that's reliable in your pistol and serves your purpose, then tune your mainspring and recoil spring interplay to that ammo for reliable function, recoil mitigation and slide durability, i.e., not battering itself unnecessarily.

Suggest you watch the Primary & Secondary podcast "Two World Wars!" in which several 1911 shooters and gunsmiths discuss the design and its use. Look particularly for the stretch where Joe Chambers talks about springing 1911s correctly for insights into how the mainspring and recoil spring are properly understood to function, their interplay and what suggested poundages to use.

I'd also consider just contacting Chambers through his website or posting the question on TOS where he's active and has his own subforum and letting him know your exact model 1911 and exact ammunition to be used and see what poundages he recommends for springing.

And yes, have to throw in if you're dealing with unwanted amounts of perceived recoil in a 9mm 1911, this may be a technique issue you're trying to solve with a hardware solution.

ETA:

Also consider a full length guide rod, especially Nighthawk's Everlast/Bob Marvel system. (This doesn't change that you'll still have to find the correct interplay between recoil and mainspring weights.)

Last edited by Culpepper Cattle Co.; 03-02-2020 at 07:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-02-2020, 07:53 AM
RandyP RandyP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Age: 71
Posts: 2,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven1127 View Post
I am in fact asking about recoil/muzzle flip. Let's eliminate comps or lights as to possible suggestions. Now what are your thoughts?

Thanks
I'm thinking full size steel handguns. My CZ75 SP-01 Tactical absorbs 9mm like it was a rimfire (to ME). After a lot of practice when I used to Bullseye compete, the .45ACP 1911 barely made the muzzle move to my perception.

But if you're not competing and not able to carry for SD, what issue do you feel reduced muzzle flip will solve/correct? Muzzle rise IS often a matter of gun handling technique. Perceived recoil is often related to basic physics and gun design. Light, short handguns will always be kinda 'snappy', longer barreled heavy guns will not.
__________________
Several firearms in .22LR, .380ACP, 9mm, 7.62x25, 7.62 Nagant, .38/.357, 7.62x54R, .45ACP and .223. Lee reloading gear.

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-02-2020, 08:13 AM
Steven1127 Steven1127 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Loading can be either, your own, or factory...I don't roll my own either, today their are lots of choices out there so often one can find a factory load which suits one's needs (albeit, reloading gives one the most flexibility).

What are the velocities on those two ball loads?

Ex., I run PMC ball 115Gr 1150fps which = a 133 power factor. As mentioned above it doesn't induce any noticeable amount of rise in the muzzle on my 4" plastic PPQ...

Not sure if there are lighter PF loads from factory then this though, maybe someone else would know.

If your 115 gr is similiar to the PMC, perhapes someone can recomend a recoil spring change to you (maybe I don't know if it would make much of a difference)...What weight 9mm recoil spring do you have in their now?

Muzzle
Federal Velocity PF
115 1180 136
124 1150 143

Speer
115 1200 138
124 1090 135
147 985 145

Remmington
115 1135 131
124 1125 140
147 990 146
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-02-2020, 08:27 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 21,303
I load 147 gr subsonic 9mm for moderate muzzle rise. I see factory load shooters with Federal 150 gr Syntech.

Racegunners lean to lighter recoil springs than stock.
Some balance it out with a small radius firing pin stop to give more resistance from the mainspring.
A full length guide rod will add a bit of weight under the barrel, a tungsten rod even more but at a good bit higher price.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-02-2020, 08:48 AM
hardluk1 hardluk1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,368
Steven1127 I saw no mention of a shot timer so how do you compare changes now .

If you have a shot timer then start a log book shooting any changes .

Buy a couple firing pin stops , square bottom that you can file and smooth a smaller radius to change the recoil impulse and have several choices to try and a few different recoil and main spring weights to try . One ammo you did not cover considering the state where you live for carry is Federal Guard Dog 105gr ammo or one of Leighs lite non expandable loads !

You did fail to mention the handgun so is it a commander !! how about the frame material in 9mm its a soft shooter as it is and you say you don't want to look at GRIP ? Well like it or not Nitrile coated gloves will take care of grip control issues so you can at least see any difference in time and accuracy with out a not so great grip causing issues with any changes .

Then with a shot timer and a log book to take changes Its all on you to find what ever it is your looking for .

MY wife carrys a Kimber ultra 9mm and she prefers a hst147gr over lighter bullets but then we don't live in nj ether . In her 4.25 M&P is a 124gr underwood +P that my 64 year old wife prefers for carry .

You say you won't reload ammo , to bad as then you can really make your own pop fart loads even a child can enjoy in a lite small pistol .
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-02-2020, 08:52 AM
Steven1127 Steven1127 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
I load 147 gr subsonic 9mm for moderate muzzle rise. I see factory load shooters with Federal 150 gr Syntech.

Racegunners lean to lighter recoil springs than stock.
Some balance it out with a small radius firing pin stop to give more resistance from the mainspring.
A full length guide rod will add a bit of weight under the barrel, a tungsten rod even more but at a good bit higher price.
Sorry for the stupid question but can you put a FLGR in a commander size barrel?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-02-2020, 09:01 AM
Litespeedaudio Litespeedaudio is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 95
Tungsten One Piece Full Length Guide Rod. Will add a little weight to the front and help reduce muzzle flip.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-02-2020, 09:25 AM
Culpepper Cattle Co. Culpepper Cattle Co. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven1127 View Post
Sorry for the stupid question but can you put a FLGR in a commander size barrel?
If you buy the commander-sized ones you can...
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-02-2020, 09:26 AM
Culpepper Cattle Co. Culpepper Cattle Co. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardluk1 View Post
...You did fail to mention the handgun so is it a commander !!...
OP states it's a commander.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-02-2020, 09:27 AM
Culpepper Cattle Co. Culpepper Cattle Co. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyP View Post
I'm thinking full size steel handguns...
OP states he's looking to swap parts...
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-02-2020, 10:47 AM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Great American Desert
Posts: 23,003
Years ago an old gunsmith told me most pistols (including 1911s of course) are sort of a dance of the springs so one might think about changing those. I think Wolff makes calibration packs for Commanders when thinking about recoil springs and one can get different main springs also. There is also the bottom of the firing pin stop, often discussed with 10mm 1911s but a rounded bottom on a 9mm might help felt recoil also.

I am thinking 10mm here as 9mm to me is a little step up from a 22 conversion unit as far as recoil in even my LW Commanders. My problem with 9mm is that when I shoot two very similar pistols, say Colt GCNMs in 45ACP and 9mm then I get smaller groups at say 25 yards with the 45.



Friends who are into 9mm tell me I need to look into heavier 9mm match ammo.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-02-2020, 11:18 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 6,096
"This post isn't meant to go down the stance/grip/trigger pull route."

You have added several qualifiers.

The only thing left is stated above. Small radius FPS and reduced return to battery spring.
Some people prefer lighter bullets some prefer heavier bullets.

Your grip, stance and gun with it's preferred ammo will determine reduced muzzle flip.

Smiles,
__________________
John, Retired LEO, CA POST Certified Firearms Instructor, NRA Endmt., NRA Instructor, NRA RSO, Blue Lives Matter
Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-02-2020, 11:21 AM
Steven1127 Steven1127 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Loading can be either, your own, or factory...I don't roll my own either, today their are lots of choices out there so often one can find a factory load which suits one's needs (albeit, reloading gives one the most flexibility).

What are the velocities on those two ball loads?

Ex., I run PMC ball 115Gr 1150fps which = a 133 power factor. As mentioned above it doesn't induce any noticeable amount of rise in the muzzle on my 4" plastic PPQ...

Not sure if there are lighter PF loads from factory then this though, maybe someone else would know.

If your 115 gr is similiar to the PMC, perhapes someone can recomend a recoil spring change to you (maybe I don't know if it would make much of a difference)...What weight 9mm recoil spring do you have in their now?
12lbs according to the WC rep on the phone.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:44 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved