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  #1  
Old 02-27-2020, 08:19 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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Shooting Left

I consistently shoot somewhat left at the range. The sights are dialed in. I know the basic reasons: Finger not right on the trigger or anticipating recoil and have tried to correct but still having difficulty.

Strangely when I shot outside in competition I did not have this issue. Also less pronounced when shooting 1911's as opposed to other handguns whether DA/SA or LEM trigger.

Thoughts.
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  #2  
Old 02-27-2020, 09:30 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Longer triggers on 1911, and if your poly's have a long reach to the trigger I would suppose the same thing could happen, can cause this...

Happens to me sometimes when I shoot my 1911's with long triggers (which usually come stock). I have to "concentrate more on getting a perfect grip and then I am fine, right down the spine. With my 1911/2011 with a medium trigger NP at all phenomenon doesn't occur.

I have medium size hands as measured by snugly fitting leather gloves (proverbial "fit like a glove" :-)).
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Last edited by combat auto; 02-27-2020 at 09:32 AM.
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  #3  
Old 02-27-2020, 09:39 AM
f1racefan f1racefan is online now
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Similar issues here. I think in competition, when the clock's ticking, when your brain realizes the sights are on target, you just pull the trigger, then transition to the next target. Because things happen so quickly, you don't have time to "flinch", if you will. When you shoot at the range, the rate of fire is much slower, giving your brain plenty of time to think over the smack the recoil is going to give to your hand when you squeeze the trigger.
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  #4  
Old 02-27-2020, 11:14 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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A strange case I saw recently with someone shooting almost 100% left by about 3-4 inches turned out to be an eye issue. The individual is cross eye dominant (right handed shooter) and when shooting with both eyes open his non-dominant eye was pulling his vision in such a way that his actual aim was slightly to the left even he thought he was aiming on target. After all the possibilities such as flinching, trigger pull, etc. were exhausted, I suggested he close his dominant eye and only shoot with his weak eye. He literally cleared up the issue in a couple of range sessions. Now the question is can he retrain his eyes and make the right eye into the dominant eye to shoot with both eyes open.
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  #5  
Old 02-27-2020, 11:51 AM
ejr10mm ejr10mm is offline
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I shoot Glocks left unless I use a lot of finger on the trigger.
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  #6  
Old 02-27-2020, 01:12 PM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Guys....this is not always a finger issue but a grip issue.

Here is an excel ode I show my students.

Best with a laser...

Sight you gun....no ammo. Now, instead of pressing the trigger, suddenly squeeze your grip. Note where the light goes....to the left and usually low. Most shooters squeeze the trigger which implies they squeeze the grip too.

Keep a firm grip....the same level of firmness before, during and after the shot and it likely won’t matter where your finger is.

I have corrected dozens of shooters using this method.
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  #7  
Old 02-27-2020, 02:55 PM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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Thanks for all the suggestions.
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  #8  
Old 02-27-2020, 03:40 PM
mdellis49 mdellis49 is offline
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And if all else fails move the rear sight to the right
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  #9  
Old 02-27-2020, 05:15 PM
SC shooter SC shooter is offline
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I shoot just a hair to the left unless I make myself think about pulling the trigger straight back. I think I push it slightly when I am not concentrating on it.
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  #10  
Old 02-28-2020, 04:43 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Shooting left....

On a 1911 style pistol, I like a short trigger with a flat trigger pad. When a right handed person shoots a 1911 with a long trigger or places too much finger on the trigger, often times the inside of their trigger finger will press against the right side of the frame.....when they press the trigger back, they may inadvertently push the frame to the left.....

When I use a short 1911 trigger and use only the middle tip of my finger before the first joint, the underside of my trigger finger never touches the frame......and I am able to keep my shots where I aim.....

I do not recommend shooting with the non-dominant eye. The reason why one eye may be more dominant is the brain knows it has the best visual acuity. I have been shooting pistols for a very long time, and I am left eye dominant and a right handed shooter, and use my left eye for sighting pistols. Using my dominant eye for aiming allows me to keep both eyes open. I simply turn my head a bit to the right, and don't feel it is a handicap, but more of a positive thing to use my shooting eye with the best visual acuity...... When I shoot my rifles, I use optics, which allows good sighting with my non-dominant eye......

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 02-28-2020 at 04:46 AM.
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  #11  
Old 02-28-2020, 07:54 AM
anonymouscuban anonymouscuban is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Guys....this is not always a finger issue but a grip issue.

Here is an excel ode I show my students.

Best with a laser...

Sight you gun....no ammo. Now, instead of pressing the trigger, suddenly squeeze your grip. Note where the light goes....to the left and usually low. Most shooters squeeze the trigger which implies they squeeze the grip too.

Keep a firm grip....the same level of firmness before, during and after the shot and it likely won’t matter where your finger is.

I have corrected dozens of shooters using this method.
^^^^This^^^^

I would further argue that when a right hand shooter shoots left, its rarely a trigger issue. Almost always a grip issue. As WaterDR pointed out, it comes from squeezing too hard with the strong hand.

Strong hand grip should be just enough to hold the gun in your hand so it doesn't fall out. All of your grip strength should come from your support hand.

The other thing I suggest is to double up the ear pro. Wear buds and muffs. Especially indoors. This may help with flinch if you've also got that going on.



Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
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  #12  
Old 02-28-2020, 08:43 AM
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Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
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If a right handed shooter jerks the trigger it will go low left. That's the most common reason for shots to go left... telling the gun to fire rather than letting it go off. If you are getting a surprise break, and the shots are still left, then the grip moves up the list as a likely cause. Milking the grip can displace the shot low, or to the weak side, or some combination. Not milking the grip is an element of trigger control.
Trigger control is moving the finger, straight back, in isolation.
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  #13  
Old 02-28-2020, 09:23 AM
hardluk1 hardluk1 is offline
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SCfromNY many 1911's come from the factory with a LONG trigger that does not work well with standard thickness grip panels so perhaps your problem is with trigger reach and or grip width for a right hand shooter with less than large hands .

Thin grip panels and or a short trigger may fix your problems and do it at home in 20 minutes .
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  #14  
Old 02-28-2020, 09:41 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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Recently picked this up. https://mantisx.com/

It needs a railed gun, but has been pretty good at picking up and differentiating movements while shooting. My son picked it up at a gun show several weeks ago. I tend not to shoot left. One of my faults was/is moving my wrist up resulting in higher POI.

I scoffed at first, but the drills are good and it then quantifies and tabulates them. It may help get some tendencies while shooting sorted.
Pretty good imho...
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  #15  
Old 02-28-2020, 10:00 AM
Wavygravy Wavygravy is offline
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I tend to shoot slightly left. It has improved as I've practiced, but still there. Grip and trigger tips have improved it. I have only one eye, though (my right eye), so it may be a bit of depth perception issue as well in my case. I would be interested to hear any comment/suggestion from marksmen here, but am not trying to derail the OP's thread.
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  #16  
Old 02-28-2020, 11:32 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
On a 1911 style pistol, I like a short trigger with a flat trigger pad. When a right handed person shoots a 1911 with a long trigger or places too much finger on the trigger, often times the inside of their trigger finger will press against the right side of the frame.....when they press the trigger back, they may inadvertently push the frame to the left.....

When I use a short 1911 trigger and use only the middle tip of my finger before the first joint, the underside of my trigger finger never touches the frame......and I am able to keep my shots where I aim.....
Same here, a med-trigger gives me some leeway with the grip...I didn't really have an issue when all my 1911's were long triggers, but now that I spend roughly 80% of the time shooting 4 1911/2011's with a medium trigger, when I am shooting the long trigger 1911 that 20% of the time I have to be extra careful to get that perfect grip. (Medium size hands). I was going to swap it out when WC was doing some service on my gun, but any trigger work, even if it has nothing to do with T-weight requires a customer to sign a waiver if the trigger is less than 3.5# taking responsibility of the gun. Since this gun has a 3# from the start NOOB from WC before this rule was there (they weren't changing it), I felt it was total nonsense and passed on the trigger swap.
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Last edited by combat auto; 02-28-2020 at 11:38 AM.
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  #17  
Old 02-28-2020, 06:22 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
Recently picked this up. https://mantisx.com/

It needs a railed gun, but has been pretty good at picking up and differentiating movements while shooting. My son picked it up at a gun show several weeks ago. I tend not to shoot left. One of my faults was/is moving my wrist up resulting in higher POI.

I scoffed at first, but the drills are good and it then quantifies and tabulates them. It may help get some tendencies while shooting sorted.
Pretty good imho...
They make a mount that fits into the base plate of a 1911 mag so you can use your non railed 1911. I have one. Pretty cool thing to play with.
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  #18  
Old 02-28-2020, 06:29 PM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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I went from Weaver to Isosceles stance to fix that in the short term (it works!). Would still LIKE to correct it with Weaver, but I'll take what I can get for the time being.
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  #19  
Old 02-28-2020, 08:00 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
They make a mount that fits into the base plate of a 1911 mag so you can use your non railed 1911. I have one. Pretty cool thing to play with.
Thanks TRSOtto, I didnt know about the other mount.
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  #20  
Old 02-29-2020, 02:14 PM
Mikeybigs Mikeybigs is offline
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Brought a friend to the range. He was a newer shooter. Before we went to the range I had him check for eye dominance. I spoke to him about sight picture, trigger squeeze, proper hold etc.

He was shooting left. I couldn’t spot the issue. I had a range office observe him and he picked up the problem. He had too much finger on the trigger.

Had him change to using the first finger pad and all was good.

Mike
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  #21  
Old 02-29-2020, 03:45 PM
BCC BCC is offline
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I generically call moving the sights off target a flinch. What has seriously helped me is shooting a lot with a red dot. You can actually see that you are moving the gun and with enough repetition, now that you see what you are doing wrong with every shot, for me, the brain compensates and the flinch stops. And stays stopped, whether in the future, shooting a red dot or iron sights.
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  #22  
Old 03-01-2020, 02:53 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Correcting a "flinch"

As an NRA Firearms Instructor for over 5 years, I have had the opportunity to work with quite a few newcomers to shooting a pistol, and many were ladies that wanted a handgun for home protection and/or concealed carry. In the state of Florida, to obtain a concealed weapon permit, a person needs to show "proof of handgun proficiency" and participating in a training class with an NRA certified firearms instructor is one way to meet the requirement.

I have found that a flinch is most often caused by "loud noise" and the subsequent recoil. Anytime I noticed a student with "muffs" and shooting glasses with thick temples, or ladies with large earrings, the ear muffs were not as effective to reduce the noise since it did not make a good seal to block the noise around the ears. I would recommend foam ear plugs and muffs, and this often reduced the noise and the "flinch." The range where I taught had a small plastic case with 2 foam ear plugs that sold for 35 cents at the time.....

Double hearing protection may help new students to prevent the loud noise that may cause a flinch...…and I always recommended a good "dry fire" program to practice keeping the sights in alignment before, during, and after the shot is fired. Good follow through allows the shooter to "call their shots" for firing single shots during range practice.

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 03-01-2020 at 02:57 AM.
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  #23  
Old 03-01-2020, 03:36 AM
megafiddle megafiddle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCfromNY View Post
I consistently shoot somewhat left at the range. The sights are dialed in. I know the basic reasons: Finger not right on the trigger or anticipating recoil and have tried to correct but still having difficulty.

Strangely when I shot outside in competition I did not have this issue. Also less pronounced when shooting 1911's as opposed to other handguns whether DA/SA or LEM trigger.

Thoughts.
Are these small groups that are consistently to the left, or just errant shots that are consistently to the left?

It's very difficult to shoot small groups if you are doing something wrong. If your groups are good, your sights are off.

-
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  #24  
Old 03-01-2020, 08:21 AM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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This is purposely somewhat long decsription ( going down memory lane). To show how I learned to apply all the general tips and styles.
Background
First learned to shoot k frame and 1911-A1 by my dad and uncle both military veteran uncle US Marine in the Pacific.
Did pretty well not give it much of a thought.

Years later about 15 yrs ago decided to get back into shooting.
A lot more resources compared to the early 70s.

I heard and read the following:
I heard to the place the pad of your finger on the rigger when first started shooting.
I heard place your hand as high as possible for the grip
I heard put the gun in the web of your hand.
I heard surprise break
I heard sweep the trigger do not stage.
Seemed like applicable to k frames and 1911-A1s.

All that advice was from trainers and other shooters and gun magazine writers. I took it under advice and tried them out.


Went to a public range first time ever about 15 yrs ago, before that shot only on private property.

At the public range

I observed others , looking for tips maybe or to see what they were shooting. People very friendly tried out each other pistols shared technique etc.
Some were very good.
Some could not group ( figured new shooter) and if did group was usually left and low. I watched out for that in my shooting.

About 15 yrs ago I decided to try out some of those plastic Tupperware 9 mms.

But could not bring myself to get a 9mm , so I bought. SA XD 45.

But with the XD had a different tendency, not low left but instead slightly low dead center.

First noticed with this XD 45, and observing other XD users that many did too. Low but centered.

After a couple of times I got better but still low.

When cleaning and dry fire I noticed the trigger pull was easy untill it got some resistance just at the trigger break. But that was at the arc of the trigger motion past 90 degrees so I was putting slightly more pressure at time of the trigger break and had the affect of dipping the barrel slightly.

So I modified my approach, I made sure my finger was placed mid trigger not near the tip. And I made sure I did not break my wrist, held solid.

Next up

The j frame.

I never owned one but shot k frames very well.
The k frames dimensions are just about right to luckily get a good working grip and trigger placement.

The j frame not so. I need to use much more trigger finger. By more I mean closer to the hand not closer to the finger tip.
By the way
1911-A1is pretty good fit for me, standard 1911-A1. So luckily (thanks John Moses) I hit the sweet spot.
Had a mil spec SA .45 ACP.

After a while I decide to get a 9 mm Tupperware for carry.

All striker fired. Finally decided on the G26 for carry.

But the Glock guys say they shot low left. My experience XD guys shot lower center .
I tried the Glock similar tendency low left at first.

Then I found what I was doing wrong.

I tried a one size fits all approach , as implied by all that advice.

My experience
The G26 fit best if I held it like and old school law enforcement training film where the gun is in line and level with your wrist and elbow. The trigger finger is more like a j frame placement near the knuckle closest to the hand. If too close to the tip then my trigger finger was pushing upward right at the break and the muzzle would dip low left. This was a trigger issue not a grip issue.
Grip pressure only on the front strap and backstrap no push pull or what ever.

As the Glock is partially compressed striker spring and need to clear the trigger block it feels similar to a two stage trigger or a S&W style staging. Not clean as crisp but has a distinct wall.
Once I noticed all these factors I lear to apply the appropriate technique for each handgun I shoot.

So I have improved application of variation of my technique such that I get very good results with pretty much any gun
LCP s to Desert Eagle. Oh ye I have an lcp for pocket carry.

Summary

Learn by dry fire practice experiment , what combinations of factors and techniques you need for each individual gun you use.

I found there is no one size fits all magic technique.

Once you get it down then try all the other option iscoclese Weaver etc. But first learn how to use your gun in one hand range work and then Branch out.

If there are instructors around you pay for some training. Even then you need to experiment to get the best technique for you.

Always keep your front sight on the target through your trigger press.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 03-01-2020 at 09:08 AM.
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  #25  
Old 03-01-2020, 09:42 AM
7in1911 7in1911 is offline
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I went shooting with a lady yesterday who wanted more time on her new SA Hellcat 9mm.

After shooting for a while, most of her shots were going left. I asked where her finger was placed on the trigger. When she shot again, I noticed her right thumb (shoots right handed) wasn't indexed to the side of the frame, rather sticking out and support hand was being used to do the work the right thumb should be doing.

I explained using the right thumb like a clamp and the support hand to help do the rest.

When she went back to shooting, all of her shots were centered where they should be.

Grip, sight alignment and trigger control is what she was focused on.
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