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  #1  
Old 12-06-2019, 03:42 PM
condition_2 condition_2 is offline
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Students with disabilities

I had my first student with a physical disability when I hosted a Basic Pistol class recently. This person could stand, but for a very limited time and needed to lean against the bench/table to steady themselves. This class ranged in age 27 to 71. Obviously, I want to make sure Iím not making them feel different but you have to make some adjustments for them. I think everything went ok, especially since the class evaluation had high marks returned from everyone. Anybody else have any students that required assistance and how did you do?
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  #2  
Old 01-04-2020, 12:31 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Majority of classes these days seem to be focused on high speed quasi special forces training handbooks bought from the back of "mercenary today" or "modern survivor".

Basic pistol is about teaching how to actually shoot. That means standing or sitting and hitting the target.
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Old 01-04-2020, 03:06 PM
Oldguy9 Oldguy9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
Majority of classes these days seem to be focused on high speed quasi special forces training handbooks bought from the back of "mercenary today" or "modern survivor".

Basic pistol is about teaching how to actually shoot. That means standing or sitting and hitting the target.
The OP asked if anyone else experienced a student with a disability. Are you saying only physically fit people take defensive instruction?

I certainly hope that is not true-who needs defensive training more- a recent college quarterback or a 60 year old woman with arthritis? I would think the later.
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  #4  
Old 01-04-2020, 03:14 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldguy9 View Post
The OP asked if anyone else experienced a student with a disability. Are you saying only physically fit people take defensive instruction?

I certainly hope that is not true-who needs defensive training more- a recent college quarterback or a 60 year old woman with arthritis? I would think the later.
MOST classes, wether its a basic introduction to shooting, or a carry permit class, 99% are set up specifically for people who can stand, run, jump, and things that handicappers cant do.

Here in my own state, I have seen the training over view for carry permit classes that required students to complete "basic" situational shooting techniques like crawling under a table while shooting at a target. And running across open field/parking lot while shooting at a target.
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Old 01-04-2020, 03:50 PM
Oldguy9 Oldguy9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
MOST classes, wether its a basic introduction to shooting, or a carry permit class, 99% are set up specifically for people who can stand, run, jump, and things that handicappers cant do.

Here in my own state, I have seen the training over view for carry permit classes that required students to complete "basic" situational shooting techniques like crawling under a table while shooting at a target. And running across open field/parking lot while shooting at a target.
Well...if that's true..the defensive gun community would do well to rethink training.That would attract the more vulnerable among us. Precisely the ones with the greatest need. (Excluding of course, those whose jobs take them in harm's way regularly.)
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  #6  
Old 01-04-2020, 04:04 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldguy9 View Post
The OP asked if anyone else experienced a student with a disability. Are you saying only physically fit people take defensive instruction?

I certainly hope that is not true-who needs defensive training more- a recent college quarterback or a 60 year old woman with arthritis? I would think the later.
MOST classes, wether its a basic introduction to shooting, or a carry permit class, 99% are set up specifically for people who can stand, run, jump, and things that handicappers cant do.

Here in my own state, I have seen the training over view for carry permit classes that required students to complete "basic" situational shooting techniques like crawling under a table while shooting at a target. And running across open field/parking lot while shooting at a target.
Anyone having students crawl under tables, while calling it ‘basic’ anything is more into themselves and being ‘enter-trainers’ than good instructors.......

Back to the OP. Yes, I’ve done it a few times over many years. Aside from making sure everything I might ask them to do being safe (think stability and holsters if those apply), we’re off to the races.

It’s the instructors job to work with the limitations the student has, rather than the other way around for any sort of basic course. That’s where you learn to operate the gun, related equipment, and learn the fundamentals of shooting.

We can play commando, and shoot from our chute harness later.
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  #7  
Old 01-04-2020, 05:14 PM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldguy9 View Post
Well...if that's true..the defensive gun community would do well to rethink training.That would attract the more vulnerable among us. Precisely the ones with the greatest need. (Excluding of course, those whose jobs take them in harm's way regularly.)
I have yet to find a course directed to those with physical limitations.
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  #8  
Old 01-04-2020, 08:58 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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It is up to the instructor to adapt!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter59 View Post
Anyone having students crawl under tables, while calling it Ďbasicí anything is more into themselves and being Ďenter-trainersí than good instructors.......

Back to the OP. Yes, Iíve done it a few times over many years. Aside from making sure everything I might ask them to do being safe (think stability and holsters if those apply), weíre off to the races.

Itís the instructors job to work with the limitations the student has, rather than the other way around for any sort of basic course. Thatís where you learn to operate the gun, related equipment, and learn the fundamentals of shooting.

We can play commando, and shoot from our chute harness later.
Yes, the training group I used to be associated with encourages all ages and abilities and were committed to safety and everyone's success! Our application asked if anyone has "special needs" to speak with the director in advance for accommodation needs.

I have no idea what planet "Pocketshaver" is from!

All the best in 2020,
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  #9  
Old 01-09-2020, 02:27 PM
condition_2 condition_2 is offline
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This person is now going to take my concealed class so I 'm sure I'll have to tailor a few range stages to their limitations. They had a walker that had a seat so I'm sure we'll use that instead of the kneeling stage. I definitely agree you have to work with the student to make them feel comfortable with what they are doing, safely (for them and the rest of us on the range). I would never try to dissuade anybody from learning how to shoot. Now, what type of firearm, that's another subject... LOL
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  #10  
Old 01-11-2020, 09:48 PM
Doctor481 Doctor481 is offline
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Several years ago, when we were required to have annual advanced training for church carry, we had a lady in a wheelchair. From memory she shot with us 2 years. We warned the instructors when we were setting up the class.
She was the only female at the class and was initially bashful. The instructors didnít really do anything different for her, only all of her shooting was seated.
She ended up outshooting most of the guys .
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  #11  
Old 01-12-2020, 03:08 PM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
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I am an Army veteran (33+ years of service) retired as 100% disabled. Now all of us vets know that does not necessarily mean that I am confined to a wheel chair or walker, but I do have limitations. I am a Gunsite grad as well as having the benefit of some more advance military training beyond the basic stuff that most do year after year (Macridge Road/Range 37 at Bragg, etc). All of that said, I have been concerned with my reduced abilites due to my injuries and normal aging. Enough so that I contacted one of the nationally known trainers (that has occasionally posted on this forum). I got crickets for a reply.....

Now I am better off than many if not most disabled/aged folks, so I am not in as much need of alternatives to the norms as they are. I am convinced that the time to deal with that stuff is now, not later. I guess the trainers are working the most profitable clientele and view the market for disabled/handicapped/aged as not worth their trouble.
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  #12  
Old 01-12-2020, 05:40 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
Yes, the training group I used to be associated with encourages all ages and abilities and were committed to safety and everyone's success! Our application asked if anyone has "special needs" to speak with the director in advance for accommodation needs.

I have no idea what planet "Pocketshaver" is from!

All the best in 2020,
Im from Michigan. And the classes I referenced were located in Michigan.

Wanting people to complete shooting events in order to get a CPL or even to learn BASIC GUN SKILLS , that are based on training standards for Green Berets and Navy Seals is rather farfetched of an idea.

No state mandates a person be required to swing on a rope for 5 minutes, or run across an open field before shooting at a target. So how do the little training classes get away with that ****?
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  #13  
Old 01-14-2020, 08:20 AM
condition_2 condition_2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor481 View Post
Several years ago, when we were required to have annual advanced training for church carry, we had a lady in a wheelchair. From memory she shot with us 2 years. We warned the instructors when we were setting up the class.
She was the only female at the class and was initially bashful. The instructors didnít really do anything different for her, only all of her shooting was seated.
She ended up outshooting most of the guys .
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  #14  
Old 01-14-2020, 08:27 AM
condition_2 condition_2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBBBill View Post
I am an Army veteran (33+ years of service) retired as 100% disabled. Now all of us vets know that does not necessarily mean that I am confined to a wheel chair or walker, but I do have limitations. I am a Gunsite grad as well as having the benefit of some more advance military training beyond the basic stuff that most do year after year (Macridge Road/Range 37 at Bragg, etc). All of that said, I have been concerned with my reduced abilites due to my injuries and normal aging. Enough so that I contacted one of the nationally known trainers (that has occasionally posted on this forum). I got crickets for a reply.....

Now I am better off than many if not most disabled/aged folks, so I am not in as much need of alternatives to the norms as they are. I am convinced that the time to deal with that stuff is now, not later. I guess the trainers are working the most profitable clientele and view the market for disabled/handicapped/aged as not worth their trouble.

Good on you for being proactive, I truly hope you find the training that you are looking for. And, thanks for your service.
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  #15  
Old 01-14-2020, 02:50 PM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
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One thing that I am specifically concerned with is the disparity of force issue. It does not come up much in discussions when the perp and good guy are somewhat equally matched. My concern is with those in poor health who may not be able to withstand a few punches from a bad guy, thereby needing to go to gun when a health person would not. No one that I am aware of addresses this in training.
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  #16  
Old 04-13-2020, 04:51 PM
gunfighter45 gunfighter45 is offline
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My late teacher and friend Louis Awerbuck had me go without my meds for a couple of days before and during one of his classes. Iím a diabetic and have the accompanying condition called gastroperesis. It caused nausea and vomiting. I was having issues with this when I attended Gunsite. I had discussed this w/Louis and he opined I needed to train for a worst case scenario (the meds I was taking at the time were less than completely effective). I was able to push through and perform to an acceptable standard. My latest meds have been effective for years so itís a moot point but it was good to know just in case...
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  #17  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:12 PM
kwo51 kwo51 is offline
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Knees will not allow running or turning quick so I gust shot and waddled.
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  #18  
Old 04-19-2020, 12:41 AM
cavelamb cavelamb is offline
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I recently took the NRA basic pistol class from Roger (GrampsAE50).

And the RSO certification and the pistol instructor certification.

Like BBBill, I'm 100% disabled vet but not normally confined to a wheel chair.
My lower back is sometimes unstable from repeated helicopter crashes.
My knees are wobbly just from being old.


My worst problem is that I am deaf as a post. I can hear a bit better with
my earmuffs on (noise canceling helps a lot) but still have to keep an eye on
everything at the same time.

The rest of the students in all the classes were young and sturdy country boys
and one police officer. I'm sure they all could have done tacti-cool if needed.

The crew teaching those classes went out of their way to make me comfortable
and make sure I was safe at the range. And they were careful not to make me
feel "disabled" when I did need help. (Bless you, Roger)

At the end of the instructor course we did do some rolling around on the ground
shooting.
Nobody laughed at the old man, so I didn't have to shoot any of my fellow students.
We all got through it and had fun doing so.

@pocketshaver...
The focus of a class is whatever the instructor wants it to be, and can get people
to pay him for. If the instructor want's to teach how to kill everybody eight ways
with either hand, good for him.

If Michigan actually does require that kind of training, then that's what you do.
Do they? Really?
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Old 04-19-2020, 02:39 AM
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The first time i had to re-qualify for my CCW (now you can do it online with no shooting) we had a blind woman with her husband. This caused quite a delay while the administrators decided what to do. Of course they were mainly concerned about their liability. Finally they decided to let her go through the course. She maxed the written test. But when her husband had to lead her into the range someone with balls moved them to the far end of the range. Of course she failed, but she had the same chance as everyone else and the range couldn't be accused of discrimination.
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Old 04-19-2020, 05:05 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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First, full disclosure: I'm a training snob. The vast majority of what people consider "training" isn't, and I have very little tolerance for compromising standards. Proper training includes, without exception, an assessment of student performance, against a known, quantifiable standard. To do otherwise is either laziness or cowardice on the instructor's part...
To most, thsi seems rather harsh. With 30+ years in a green suit, almost all in SOF, I'm acustom to standards. Can't do 70s/240 on an APFT? See ya. Can't ruck 12m? This isn't for you. Can't get thru basic airborne (and later JM)? Go be a track toad. This is the world I cam up in. There ARE physical requirements to perform some tasks well. Can't do it? Sorry, life isn't fair. Suck it up, buttercup.

That out of the way, "basic" pistol is, or should be, just that- basic. Working hands. At least one decent eye. A little grey matter between the ears...

The biggest problem that I see with the firearms "training" industry is that there are no real standards, commonly accepted understanding of expectations, consistency in instruction or instructor development.... my 14 month old rott pup (who's current skills include chewing, drooling, and napping) can probably earn an NRA "instructor" cert in a short weekend..... and this seems to be the gold standard. Anyone can buy a polo and ball cap, and hang up a shingle.

The problem with the industry developing any real standards is that it would cut off the beer mone for thousands upon thousands of part time, hobby "instructors" and hold those claiming this as a profession accountable....
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  #21  
Old 04-19-2020, 11:29 PM
cavelamb cavelamb is offline
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Country boy, you once were a raw beginner.

Remember?

So, like Julie Andrews singing her do, re, mi - it all starts at the very beginning...

do - muzzle discipline

re - Sight picture

mi - trigger control

If we can get these three things across to new shooters we have earned our beer money.

There are many standards.
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Last edited by cavelamb; 04-19-2020 at 11:40 PM.
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2020, 12:32 AM
VetPsychWars VetPsychWars is offline
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My father shot his class for concealed carry with me and an instructor I trusted. He was in his late 70s at the time.

I had talked with the instructors ahead of time so they knew what to expect. His pistol at that time was a Bersa Concealed Carry in .380ACP. I loaded his magazines form him and he had a chair when he needed it. Now he has, as I do, a S&W M&P EZ9, because racking that Bersa was a chore for him.

He completed the class with no problems.

Actually, now that I recall, he had hunter safety, so in Wisconsin he strictly speaking didn't need the class, nor did I, but we did it anyways, because live fire training with good instructors is worth what you paid and then some!

I used my 1918 Colt. :-) Lots of 9s and .380s. poppoppop!

Then there's me... BOOM BOOM BOOM!

A little accommodation goes a long way, is my message.

Tom
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  #23  
Old 04-20-2020, 07:18 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavelamb View Post
Country boy, you once were a raw beginner.

Remember?

So, like Julie Andrews singing her do, re, mi - it all starts at the very beginning...

do - muzzle discipline

re - Sight picture

mi - trigger control

If we can get these three things across to new shooters we have earned our beer money.

There are many standards.
I was, and i was quite clear that basic should be basic....

You're correct there are many "standards"- thats the problem. You and I may have vastly differences ideas of what the standard of "basic" proficiency is, or should be...
When you have an "all standards are equally valid" mentality, then the standard becomes whatever an individual, at a moment in time, decides it is... rarely is there anything quantifiable to assess if one has met the standard....

There's nothing "professional " about such a practice, or mindset. That's where the industry, as a whole, has failed. Its completely uncontrolled, unmanaged, undisciplined, and lacks any unifying standards or consistency.
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I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
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  #24  
Old 04-20-2020, 09:59 AM
condition_2 condition_2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavelamb View Post
I recently took the NRA basic pistol class from Roger (GrampsAE50).

And the RSO certification and the pistol instructor certification.

Like BBBill, I'm 100% disabled vet but not normally confined to a wheel chair.
My lower back is sometimes unstable from repeated helicopter crashes.
My knees are wobbly just from being old.


My worst problem is that I am deaf as a post. I can hear a bit better with
my earmuffs on (noise canceling helps a lot) but still have to keep an eye on
everything at the same time.

The rest of the students in all the classes were young and sturdy country boys
and one police officer. I'm sure they all could have done tacti-cool if needed.

The crew teaching those classes went out of their way to make me comfortable
and make sure I was safe at the range. And they were careful not to make me
feel "disabled" when I did need help. (Bless you, Roger)

At the end of the instructor course we did do some rolling around on the ground
shooting.
Nobody laughed at the old man, so I didn't have to shoot any of my fellow students.
We all got through it and had fun doing so.

@pocketshaver...
The focus of a class is whatever the instructor wants it to be, and can get people
to pay him for. If the instructor want's to teach how to kill everybody eight ways
with either hand, good for him.

If Michigan actually does require that kind of training, then that's what you do.
Do they? Really?
To obtain a concealed license, Michigan does not require the kind of training that Pocket shaver described. Minimum of 8 hours training (3 on the range) by certified instructors.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(qhi...me=mcl-28-425j
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  #25  
Old 04-24-2020, 01:59 PM
nikerret nikerret is offline
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Here’s a good, what not to do:

https://www.worldstarhiphop.com/vide...1HMXKLRcF2oOQP

It looks like they were trying and had good intentions, but common sense went out the window.

If you’re not sure how well a wheelchair will go over gravel and years of unpoliced casings, you should probably do some dry runs, first.
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