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  #1  
Old 04-21-2004, 06:19 PM
CTI1USNRET CTI1USNRET is offline
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How many rounds to become proficient?

How many rounds do you think it takes to become proficient with your weapon? Reload practice? Clearing jams practice?
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Old 04-21-2004, 07:00 PM
MarkW
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Everyone is different

It depends on the individuals skill, dexterity, mental capacity, etc.....
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Old 04-21-2004, 07:15 PM
Crazy Horse Crazy Horse is offline
 
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I would say if you took a pistol shooting course from one of the many well known shooting schools, in which you'll shoot approximately 3000 rounds in five days of 8-10 hours-per-day of shooting, that at the end of that course you'll have the fundamentals of basic shooting down. From that base you can then either take more advanced courses, which I would highly recommend, or practice on your own.

Once you have the fundamentals of pistol shooting down, the key is PRACTICE. Practice, practice, practice. The more you practice, the better you'll become. I would say that everyone should shoot a bare-bones minimum of once a month, with a more recommended amount of shooting being once a week (i.e. every weekend). Get into reloading because that really takes the bite out of ammo costs; besides it's fun.

If you don't take lessions from one of the well known schools, then you're gonna have a hard time CORRECTLY learning the basics of pistol shooting. Then you'll just be practicing bad techniques over and over; reinforcing that which you're doing wrong.

Learning how to shoot from your buddy, may or may not be a good idea. Depending upon what sort of skill level your buddy has and whether or not your buddy has the teaching skills to be able to adequately translate his knowledge of shooting skills (given that he has them in the first place) to you.

The bottom line is I would highly recommend taking a basic five day pistol course from one of the great schools, namely: Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Sig Academy and Blackwater - to name just a few of the better known ones.
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  #4  
Old 05-04-2004, 02:01 AM
Andy Andy is offline
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[QUOTE=Crazy Horse]I would say if you took a pistol shooting course from one of the many well known shooting schools, in which you'll shoot approximately 3000 rounds in five days of 8-10 hours-per-day of shooting, that at the end of that course you'll have the fundamentals of basic shooting down. From that base you can then either take more advanced courses, which I would highly recommend, or practice on your own.QUOTE]

I only shot half that amount during the last course I took at Gunsite (499), and only about 1300 in their introductory 250 class...

Get the basics of the Modern Technique of the Pistol down right the first time. Perfect Practice makes for perfect technique. That way, you won't have to unlearn any bad habits. Dry fire practice is always accessible, cheap, and one only needs some live-fire practice/shooting to keep recoil management in perspective.

I would encourage you to take a course at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Blackwater, Mid-South, or any class offered by Randy Cain, Louis Awerbuck, Steve Gonzalez, Pat Rogers, Tiger McKee, Tom Givens, Jim Crews, etc. The Rogers School in GA is also quite good.

Good luck!!
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:05 AM
XTrooper XTrooper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTI1USNRET
How many rounds do you think it takes to become proficient with your weapon? Reload practice? Clearing jams practice?
There's no magic number that, once reached, will make someone "proficient." Everyone learns and responds to that learning at a different rate.
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Old 04-22-2004, 12:20 PM
NORD NORD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTI1USNRET
How many rounds do you think it takes to become proficient with your weapon? Reload practice? Clearing jams practice?
Just to give you an idea...I have about 2000 rounds through my 1911 and I am still learning and practicing. I feel confident with my pistol in some situations but I know I have a lot to learn still. I have learned some invaluable tips and ideas just reading threads on this forum!
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Old 04-22-2004, 12:30 PM
CTI1USNRET CTI1USNRET is offline
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I'm not just starting out. I've put about 15,000 rounds through two 1911 pattern autos in the past two years. I'm just curious to hear the numbers you guys think indicates sufficient practice.

I'll be buying a progressive press and expect my shooting will increase dramatically.

I'm also considering a course at the SIGARMS Academy in Epping, NH. I live about 70 miles from there.
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Old 04-23-2004, 09:16 AM
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I agree with Crazy Horse. I can tell you from personal experience that I put probably five thousand rounds down range in the first year I got back into shooting. My grip/stance/etc was worthless, and while I read a lot of books and tried a lot of things, I never got it quite right.

I'm not talking about one of those "Man, my IDPA scores are awful" kinds of bad-shooting. I'm talking about "I sure wish I could hit a paper plate at seven yards" kind of bad shooting.

If I had continued down that path, I'd have put another ten or twenty thousand rounds downrange without a lot of improvement.

Then I took a five-day Defensive Handgun course from Thunder Ranch. The real value from taking a (good) formal class is that you have an instructor correcting you every time you screw something up. So you build good skills instead of reinforcing bad ones.

The net result isn't that I'm the world's best pistol shot. I'm not. However, I have a stable stance and grip, and as long as I'm halfway paying attention, I can put rounds where I need to. And now I find that my skill improves every time I go shooting. Before, I couldn't say that.

So, in my case (everyone learns differently), formal training was well worth the money.
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Old 04-23-2004, 10:05 AM
Walking Point Walking Point is offline
 
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One of the best things about USPSA and IDPA is that they will show you where your weaknesses are when it comes to accuracy and gun handling under whatever pressure the timer/crowd can manage to generate.
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Old 04-23-2004, 02:01 PM
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I've got 30+ years behind pistols and at least 500,000 rds down range in that time, I'm just getting where I'm proficient enough in my mind.

I've seen men and women shoot for years and not be proficient but a danger to everyone around them. Training will be key as another noted, and not the training which entails you firing bny yourself with buds on the ranges line.

Brownie
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:22 PM
XTrooper XTrooper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTI1USNRET
I'm also considering a course at the SIGARMS Academy in Epping, NH. I live about 70 miles from there.
I took an advanced pistol course there a few years ago when Bank Miller was still director of the academy. It was excellent and I'd recommend the school to anyone.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:27 PM
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Damn thing is I keep forgetting how many rounds I've fired...I'll NEVER get there.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:45 PM
aclundwall aclundwall is offline
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61,875.3

I became proficient somewhere between 61,875 and 61,876

Man, there's no answer to this. Go to your local target range and compare yourself to those around you, and you'll feel pretty good.

Then go to a match, and watch the hotshots, and go home feeling humbled!

Last edited by aclundwall; 04-28-2004 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:36 PM
wichaka wichaka is offline
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How many rounds do you think it takes to become proficient with your weapon? Reload practice? Clearing jams practice?


It takes the average person 3-5,000 repetitions of something for it to become second nature, i.e., you'll do it automatically.

Some folks are much faster at picking it up, I've not seen anyone who had to go that many reps., but the more practice the better.
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:38 PM
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:47 PM
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My theory is, if you ask yourself if you're proficient, and you have to think about the answer, keep practicing.
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Old 04-28-2004, 06:34 PM
Mus Mus is offline
 
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It seems like alot of people have trouble distinguishing between proficiency and mastery.

I think Crazy Horse gave one of the better answers.
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Old 04-28-2004, 10:06 PM
Redhat Redhat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTI1USNRET
How many rounds do you think it takes to become proficient with your weapon? Reload practice? Clearing jams practice?
First you have to decide what "proficient" is. It also depends on your practice sessions. Some folks blow hundreds of rounds in a single session and don't improve anything. Practice doesn't make perfect...perfect practice makes perfect. In other words you should focus on the basics and then concentrate on your weaknesses. It helps greatly to have someone with you who knows what to look for like jerking the trigger, losing focus on the front sight etc.

I would advise you to become comfortable with immediate / remedial action drills...what to do if the gun jams or fails to fire. One way to practice this is using dummy rounds that aren't loaded with powder or primer.

Once you have the basics of grip, stance, sight picture, trigger control and follow through down you can maybe begin some drawing from a holster (with gun empty). until you can do it smoothly , coming from holster to target (sight picture) with proper grip established. This can be followed by dry fire shooting (with no ammo), until you have the feel of it.

The rest depends on how far you want to go. What I have described is just the beginning. I have been doing this for about 12 years and so my definition of "proficient" is probably a little different. When you can handle everything from draw to jams to hitting the target you're on your way but by that time I thinkl you'll discover the more you think you know, the more you have to learn...it never ends.

If you have the means...get professional instruction this will save you time in un-learniing bad habits that you may start out with.

Finally....LEARN AND LIVE BY THE FIREARMS SAFETY RULES

Good Luck

Last edited by Redhat; 04-28-2004 at 10:08 PM. Reason: additional comments
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Old 04-30-2004, 04:56 AM
lotono lotono is offline
 
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hand gun profeciency

aside from safe handling and cleaning, you should be able to hit anything with in 5 to 50 yards and kill it or put it down . and put a second one in it with in the next two shots one shot is better.. the receiver of bullet in question is a 125lb to 244lb manimal.

Last edited by lotono; 04-30-2004 at 05:02 AM.
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Old 05-01-2004, 11:11 PM
Emerson Emerson is offline
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About 100,000 to become adequate. About 1,000,000 to become proficient.

Emerson
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Old 05-01-2004, 11:27 PM
Mus Mus is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerson
About 100,000 to become adequate. About 1,000,000 to become proficient.

Emerson
It seems to me you are confusing proficiency with mastery.

Last edited by Mus; 05-01-2004 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 05-02-2004, 01:44 AM
Pete45 Pete45 is offline
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CTI1USNRET..... long post here..... this is something that's been on my mind lately and all this is just opinion:

Proficiency, is a tough thing to measure in rounds fired. It all depends on what your definition of "proficiency" is. Personally, I am not concerned with landing in the center of the target every time or feeling like I am a good shooter based on a scorecard. My concern is whether or not I can get myself used to my gun in a way that, if I had to use it to defend myself, I could get it to function properly under stress. Getting the basics down is important, no doubt about that. There is also great value to having things become second nature through a consistent form of practice, but some take this to an extreme. If life teaches you one thing, it's that conditions vary.

For example, I find it comical when I see shooters holding the top of the slide with their left hand, adjusting their grip with their right, testing their stance, then firing their heavily modified pistols. I am NOT knocking competition shooters AT ALL. I respect the sport. It takes a lot of effort and practice, but there is a different goal there. The only danger would be if a competition shooter could ONLY shoot that way. Sometimes there is no time for the pre-firing song and dance.

One needs to realize that there may come a time where you do not have the (time) luxury of getting into your favorite proven stance, aligning your sights just right, genty squeezing the trigger, etc. You may have to make a quick decision to shoot, maybe with just one hand, maybe with your weak hand! What if you were on a hill having to shoot on a slightly up angle or down angle? What if you had just been running (away from someone) and are out of breath? What if you were crouched? I am particularly weak in getting a new magazine in quickly and the ranges I go to don't really allow you to practice draw and shoot drills either.

Good practice is the key. I handle new tasks that require practice best when I slowly build up to things. For example... try shooting at 15 to 20 feet. Stay at that range until you are comfortable with the results. Then move the target further out. Get comfortable there. Take note of what you are doing right and what is not helping you.

Get advice from experienced shooters... friends or other patient shooters if possible. If you are having a consistent problem, ask them to watch you and see if they are noticing anything wrong with your technique. Sometimes it is hard to pick up on something you are doing, but another can see it easily. In my short time shooting, I have seen that tiny adjustments in technique make a huge difference. The trick is getting used to shooting this way quickly and without having to say to yourself, "OK... my left foot goes here, my right there... this hand here, that there... ok... aligning sights... just a little to the left... ok... squeeze..." Get comfortable at a certain distance, speed up your sight aquisition and firing, then move on to a further target. In my opinion, a drill and repetition mentality goes further when trying to naturally shoot correctly than adjusting yourself to perfect stance/grip each time you fire.

LOTONO said 5-50 yards... between 15 and 150 feet. Unless you are at war, 150 feet seems kind of far to me unless you are a quarterback. I wouldn't beat myself up if you are not the best shooter at even 50 or 75 feet. At that distance, I have a hard time seeing where I have hit the target... kind of tough to practice and adjust when you don't know where you are landing. If you are talking defense, people rarely threaten your life from 150 ft away.

Ahh... what do I know... I am only shooting since December and am only at the 1,200 rounds fired mark.

- Pete45
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  #23  
Old 05-06-2004, 12:07 AM
Coop Coop is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTI1USNRET
How many rounds do you think it takes to become proficient with your weapon?
I don't know, and hopefully never believe I DO know. However good I might be, there is ALWAYS room for improvement.


Later!

--Coop

(And I ain't that good.)
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