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  #1  
Old 06-05-2017, 03:43 PM
Garth House Garth House is offline
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Speed load

There is some discussion in my department amongst us instructors regarding the merits of the "speed load". This is where you have fired some rounds, drop your partial mag on the ground, and put in a new mag. This is not a tactical reload, where you exchange the partial mag with a full one and place the partial in your pouch or pocket, nor is this a combat reload where you have run your pistol to slide lock. You just dump your partial mag on the ground.

I have a hard time seeing the benefit to this in a non combat situation. I understand it's roots in competition, and why it's done there, but on the street I don't see it. Seems like you are just throwing away ammo. Most of the instructors feel the same way. That being said, I don't presume to know everything, and if there is a good rational I would be interested.

FWIW, I did try to use the search function...
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  #2  
Old 06-05-2017, 05:53 PM
supercomp supercomp is offline
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That's the way the smith and Wesson academy taught it in the early 90's
The idea was get the gun reloaded and back in action, then if you are able, retrieve the mag and stick it in a pocket
The 2 things I believe in is you fight like you train, and Keep It Simple Stupid

while under stress, you lose fine motor skills, trying to do a tactical reload on the range is hard enough, now add the stress a gun fight when your hands just turned to all thumbs, trying to remember the different ways you were trained to reloaded the gun in different situations, it adds complexity to a very stressful and confusing situation

By teaching a single speed reload and retrieve the mag if you are able to, you are teaching a gross motor skills, and you've turned the above into KISS

The speed reload was popularized by IPSC
the tactical reload/reload with retention was popularized by IDPA
They are both competition based
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  #3  
Old 06-05-2017, 08:47 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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It takes a lot of presence of mind, akin to "fine motor skill" (Like aiming and pulling the trigger, nicht wahr?) to even conceive of a speed load or a tac load.

I have shot IPSC and USPSA with speed loads and IDPA with tac loads. But I can see the targets and know where I want to reload. Still often simpler just to shoot to slidelock, especially in IDPA.

I also shoot in a police league and the guys who only shoot scenarios once a month or less don't always realize when their gun is empty until it doesn't shoot for a try or two.

Jeff Cooper thought you could train yourself to subconsciously count shots and reload with a round in the chamber over an empty magazine. But he worked at it and was only dealing with a 7 shooter to keep track of.
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  #4  
Old 06-05-2017, 11:02 PM
JAG45 JAG45 is offline
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I am out on this one. Being a competitor and getting to work with officers from several agencies over the years, I say do what you think is best for you to learn. Personally, top of ammo every chance I get. And what you do with the outgoing magazine, either partially full or empty, depends on what is going on around you and how much of a lull there is in the gunfight. Also depends on how many more magazines you have and how much more gunfight you think you have left to get through. See it is complicated, image that, no simple rules in a gunfight. Other than have a gun, or get one fast.
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  #5  
Old 06-06-2017, 04:26 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Speed load.....

A speed reload, meaning dropping a partial mag on the ground is great for action shooting games.....but not so much in a real gunfight.

The best scenario for a LEO is to shoot his weapon while trying to seek cover.....then, shoot and alternate the position of cover if available.....and reload at slide lock behind cover.....

If a LEO is in a gunfight with multiple attackers, and no cover is available, the distance to the attackers may mean the difference of surviving the gunfight...
if the attack is within 7 yards, the chance of survival is slim....if the attack starts to take place at 15-20 yards, it would be best to attempt to shoot each bad guy with one round before shooting each BG again..... Anytime a LEO is out of his vehicle, it is best to try to use the vehicle as cover if possible....
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  #6  
Old 06-06-2017, 06:16 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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The El_presedente drill (i believe a Cooper drill-design), which I personally enjoy, and includes a variety of shooting skills, has a speed-load component (unless of course the person missed too many times with the first mag ;-0). But here of course, one is not counting rounds, and the target's are "indicating" when it is time to reload. And perhaps that last sentence should be the guide in a real-fight, albeit, it will be a much more dynamic situation potentially.
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Last edited by combat auto; 06-06-2017 at 06:32 AM.
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  #7  
Old 06-06-2017, 08:46 AM
Garth House Garth House is offline
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I know from experience that when you drop a partial mag on the ground, more often than not your rounds jiggle around in there and get all jacked up. Never mind dropping it in mud or what not, and if you are on the move it you may well be abandoning it. It's not a huge deal for me if I shoot 6 rounds and drop a mag - I have just lost 2 rounds but I have 4 10 round mags left (I run a 8 rounder up first, the extend mag jams in the car seat and jacks up my hip). A guy running a 19 fires 6 rounds, he just dumps 9 rounds and only has two mags left. I have also seen the recruits have a difficult time seating their full mag on a closed slide.

I also don't know if I buy that you lose your fine motor skills - fighter pilots have to precisely fly a supremely complicated aircraft, possibly with multiple attackers, and still engage them. For centuries soldiers loaded muskets, and then they worked bolt actions. Think a lot of what goes on is your mental conditioning. If you can induce stress in your training, or if you have experienced stress, I think you get better at managing your stress.
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  #8  
Old 06-06-2017, 10:19 AM
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RickB RickB is offline
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I think police tactics, involving guns holding seventeen rounds, with two more 17-rounders on the belt and a partner similarly kitted, are going to be very different from those employed by someone with a 6-round gun and (maybe) one 6-round reload.

A cop that I knew who had lots and lots of training and real experience on two-way ranges, said they never retained mags.
You reloaded when you had a chance to reload.

Since I've never had more than thirteen rounds on my person, I am not going to intentionally leave any portion of that on the ground.

I buy into the belief that your first clue that your gun needs reloading is the slide locking back, and that's the only reload that you are likely to do while bullets are flying.
If bullets aren't flying, then you have time to stow a depleted mag.
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  #9  
Old 06-06-2017, 11:20 AM
Brian Dover Brian Dover is offline
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For a long time now, in the "stress" of competition or training, I have been able to sense when the slide has locked back, the recoil impulse feels different than normal. Best way I have to explain it.

Hope to never find out if I'd notice the same thing under real stress.
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  #10  
Old 06-07-2017, 12:41 AM
SoCalDep SoCalDep is offline
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The likelihood of getting into a gunfight is low. The likelihood of having to reload in said gunfight is lower. The likelihood of having to reload so many times in a gunfight (for law enforcement) that all magazines are depleted but those few rounds retained during a tactical reload mean the difference between life and death is so low that I'd be very interested whether a single case could be cited where that occurred.

Have law enforcement officers been killed while trying to reload their firearms? Yes. That's cite-able because while rare, it has occurred on more than one occasion. From a simple "plan for what's more likely to occur" standpoint, if you're worried about dying, carry more mags and plan to reload faster, because you're more likely to be killed while reloading than because you didn't retain ammunition. That's reality.

The most important reload to train is the slide-lock or as we at my agency call it "emergency" reload. Next in my book is the in-battery or "speed" reload. The tactical reload is for when we feel the fight is over and we're getting ready for the next one or when all hell has broken loose and we need to keep magazines to refill later. The idea that those few rounds we retained (particularly if we're talking about single-stack 1911s) will save our lives is sacrificing the more likely for the less likely, and that's simply bad tactics.
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  #11  
Old 06-07-2017, 05:57 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Reloads.....

Many years ago, I remember reading a LE situation where a convicted killer got into a gunfight with (I believe) was an Ohio state trooper. If memory serves me, the trooper was engaging the felon from behind his squad car, while the felon was behind his own vehicle as well....... Apparently the criminal thought the LEO was using a revolver, but the LEO was using a 1911 .45acp with eight round mags...... The criminal was counting the LEO's shots, and as soon as the LEO fired his sixth shot, he rushed the LEO exclaiming "I got you now!" thinking the LEO had to reload a revolver......The criminal was "dead wrong" and was stopped/killed by the state trooper....!
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  #12  
Old 06-07-2017, 08:05 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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  #13  
Old 06-07-2017, 09:03 AM
mherzog mherzog is offline
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The point of the speed load in training is to familiarize the student with the mechanics involved in doing the magazine change while experiencing stress in a fluid, dynamic environment.

Tactics, pros & cons of tactical vs. combat reloads, round count, etc. are academic and beyond the scope of the speed reload in a stress training scenario.
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  #14  
Old 06-07-2017, 12:02 PM
TEXMEX TEXMEX is offline
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How about this scenario? You stop a vehicle. During your approach to the vehicle, the driver brings up a handgun and starts to fire. You fire multiple rounds at the driver while backing up to the cover of your vehicle. The driver appears to be down. You call for assistance while you are covering the vehicle/occupant(s). In order to keep your pistol up and ready to re-engage if necessary, you remove a fresh magazine from your belt, position it for a rapid reload, eject the empty magazine and immediately insert the fresh magazine. That way, there is only a split second where the partially expended magazine is dropping from your weapon and then the fresh magazine is inserted. Now, while keeping your eyes on the threat and waiting for backup, your pistol is topped off and ready to go.
So here is the math. If you fired eight rounds from a Glock 22, it now has one in the chamber and seven in the magazine. You drop the magazine and reload so you are back up to 16 rounds ready to go if the threat re-appears or a new threat emerges. If you carry two spare magazines, you still have 15 more rounds in reserve.
If you fired six rounds from a 1911, it now has one in the chamber and three rounds in the magazine. You would definitely want to top off while waiting for backup and the fastest way to go from four rounds on board to nine is as above. Take out the fresh magazine, position it ready to reload, dump the magazine from the weapon and shove the fresh one in. If you can keep your eyes on the threat, might be a good time to grab that rifle or shotgun out of the rack, or wait till your backup gets there to cover the threat and then grab the long gun.
Anyway, I don’t think the few rounds you dump on the ground are nearly as important as keeping your weapon ready to respond with maximum firepower. In 42 years of being a peace officer, 8 rounds is the most I have ever fired in an engagement. I have never reloaded during an engagement. The eight rounds were fired from an AR-15 that had a 20 round magazine. I once fired all seven rounds out of a 1911 and then dropped the pistol on the seat of the car and grabbed the shotgun. Every engagement that I had when carrying a revolver was at close range and ended with one round fired. I have been fortunate in never being in a gunfight with multiple bad guys, always one on one (or at least when the first guy went down, everyone else became very compliant).
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  #15  
Old 06-07-2017, 01:39 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supercomp View Post
That's the way the smith and Wesson academy taught it in the early 90's
The idea was get the gun reloaded and back in action, then if you are able, retrieve the mag and stick it in a pocket
The 2 things I believe in is you fight like you train, and Keep It Simple Stupid

while under stress, you lose fine motor skills, trying to do a tactical reload on the range is hard enough, now add the stress a gun fight when your hands just turned to all thumbs, trying to remember the different ways you were trained to reloaded the gun in different situations, it adds complexity to a very stressful and confusing situation

By teaching a single speed reload and retrieve the mag if you are able to, you are teaching a gross motor skills, and you've turned the above into KISS

The speed reload was popularized by IPSC
the tactical reload/reload with retention was popularized by IDPA
They are both competition based
When we discussed this type of reload KISS was the main advantage. But as others have pointed out the likelihood of damaging/losing your mag is not something to be ignored.

Bottom line is most officers are not into guns and will only reload when they run dry. Giving them as many options in training as possible is good but there may come a time when they go into overload and can not decide which technique to use which will be BAD.
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:48 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Seeing somebody attempting a hasty reload from a horizontal Velcro flapped pouch, surrounded by radio, cuffs, and flashlight, is the best argument I know for high capacity magazines.
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:37 PM
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RickB RickB is offline
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Quote:
The speed reload was popularized by IPSC
the tactical reload/reload with retention was popularized by IDPA
They are both competition based
Both games developed by military and LEO.
Popularized in competition, since that is where most are exposed to them, but not competition based.
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Old 06-07-2017, 10:00 PM
JAG45 JAG45 is offline
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All this talk about how to reload reminds of the late, great and I mean GREAT Bill Jordan. I hate being the old guy. (I don't). But Bill Jordan, (Marine and Border Patrol) in his book "No Second Place Winner" tells the story of a shootout down on the border that went on for awhile. Many rounds were exchanged by everyone on both sides. When it was over one officer behind him who was a competition shooter looked like a chipmunk with both front pant pockets crammed full of empty brass. Through the whole shootout he ejected the empties from his revolver and put them in his right front pocket just like a match. and when it was full he changed over to his left pocket.

Anyone who has not read this book is missing something very badly. I know of NO Shooter who has ever read this book and not like it, and said it was worth every penny. I had an uncle who worked with Mr. Jordan and saw me reading the book and said, "I did not know the old SOB could write. In later years I did get a chance to meet Mr. Jordan and have coffee and talk with him on several occasions. I was very lucky to know both these men.
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:35 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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From a practical perspective, there's very little reason or advantage to ditching a partial magazine. If you're swaping out a partial, you're doing it because you've CHOSEN to, theres a lull in the action, perhaps you have cover. You have time to stow the partial. Its always prudent to change magazines when you WANT to, rather than when you HAVE to...
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:42 PM
Che Che is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
...
Jeff Cooper thought you could train yourself to subconsciously count shots and reload with a round in the chamber over an empty magazine. But he worked at it and was only dealing with a 7 shooter to keep track of.
I am still dealing with 7 round mags. So technically a 8 shooter. After 40+ years I really got the hang of it.
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:45 PM
Che Che is offline
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Originally Posted by JAG45 View Post
... Anyone who has not read this book is missing something very badly. I know of NO Shooter who has ever read this book and not like it, and said it was worth every penny. I had an uncle who worked with Mr. Jordan and saw me reading the book and said, "I did not know the old SOB could write. In later years I did get a chance to meet Mr. Jordan and have coffee and talk with him on several occasions. I was very lucky to know both these men.
I think its a must read. Great work and for must youngsters if its not on YouTube they will not learn the "The Secret".
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Old 06-09-2017, 09:39 AM
45'r 45'r is online now
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Originally Posted by Che View Post
I am still dealing with 7 round mags. So technically a 8 shooter. After 40+ years I really got the hang of it.
Man after my own heart You've got a few more years on me, but after 32 years I'm still shooting 1911's with 7 round mags. I don't really realize I'm counting but can always report the correct numbers of rounds remaining when asked during the speed drills in qualifications. Somehow, my brain lets me know if its the first mag (8) or the follow ups at 7 ..... Amazing, but imagine it might have something to do with hundreds of thousands of rounds.

No need to change now, so my 9mm 1911's are all loaded 8 on the first 7 on the rest. No new tricks for old dogs.
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  #23  
Old 06-13-2017, 07:23 AM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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I teach the tactical reload to my students. I know that gunfights have lulls in them and what better way to optimize a lull than to have a full weapon. No matter how many rounds your firearm carries.

Discarding a magazine that has rounds in it is foolishness.

I am surrounded with people who cite statistics. The number of rounds fired...stuff like that. I have found out the hard way that what statistics say about most things in a gunfight are just that. Statistics. Not a guarantee. That gunfight that is supposed to last three rounds may last 75 or more!

A partial magazine in your pocket may save your or someone else's life.
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  #24  
Old 06-16-2017, 01:44 AM
SoCalDep SoCalDep is offline
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Originally Posted by DRM813 View Post
I teach the tactical reload to my students. I know that gunfights have lulls in them and what better way to optimize a lull than to have a full weapon. No matter how many rounds your firearm carries.

Discarding a magazine that has rounds in it is foolishness.

I am surrounded with people who cite statistics. The number of rounds fired...stuff like that. I have found out the hard way that what statistics say about most things in a gunfight are just that. Statistics. Not a guarantee. That gunfight that is supposed to last three rounds may last 75 or more!

A partial magazine in your pocket may save your or someone else's life.
If discarding a partial magazine is foolishness, then you should be able to cite instances where that foolishness resulted in a negative outcome. Since I'm unaware of any of those instances, but aware of several where people were killed while trying to reload, I'm not sure I buy this argument. In a gunfight, I want a loaded gun fast. The longer it takes to reload the firearm, the greater the chance the bad guy will kill you before you get the gun loaded. That's not foolishness or statistics... It's reality and common sense.

In addition, As much as the round count of a shooting (or the distance, preparation, body armor and weaponry of the bad guy, environment, distractions, time, weather, etc.) aren't guaranteed, neither is the presence or persistence of a lull... until it's over. That's when I think the tac-load has a proper place. That, and in cases where the potential necessity to reload those magazines with new ammunition (combat, active shooters, SHTF, etc.) is a serious consideration for continued survival. Another potential tac-load situation would be when carrying very few magazines (ie: a single spare), since each round becomes significantly more valuable. The circumstances prompting a lull are so specific they require understanding, training, and practice. Most people can't even define, let alone process the presence of a lull, and the length of time of that lull is certainly not guaranteed.

In short, I think it's good to know both types of in-battery reloads and when it's most appropriate to use each.
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  #25  
Old 06-16-2017, 03:15 AM
Fazer386 Fazer386 is offline
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K.i.s.s.

*** IT IS A SIMPLE RELOAD ***

It's either a Combat reload or a Tactical reload. Speed has nothing to do with it. All guns run out of ammunition. If your gun runs out of ammunition, exchange the empty magazine for a loaded magazine. The chances of you emptying a magazine in a gunfight then reloading in the open, on your feet to continue the gunfight is a Billion to One. In 99.99% of the time, the gunfight is over or you are dead.

Training officers to drop a partially loaded magazine on the move (IPSC style) is a horrible training tactic.

A gunfight is like a drag race, it's full on and over in a few seconds. There isn't time for a pit stop.
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