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  #1  
Old 06-29-2020, 05:44 PM
Markbo Markbo is offline
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Most effective anti personnel round

First of all I reload. I can load anything. Recently I have loaded about a case of 55gr PSP. From experience outstanding hunting rounds. But if someone wanted to by a case of commercial ammo, which round is most effective if we are not concerned with body armor. XM 855 or XM 193? And why? I know m193 replaced m855 in the military but I am not ex military and simply don't have any first hand experience.

Many thanks
Mark
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  #2  
Old 06-29-2020, 06:14 PM
Big Pete10 Big Pete10 is offline
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Any you put in the brain pan.
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  #3  
Old 06-29-2020, 06:19 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markbo View Post
First of all I reload. I can load anything. Recently I have loaded about a case of 55gr PSP. From experience outstanding hunting rounds. But if someone wanted to by a case of commercial ammo, which round is most effective if we are not concerned with body armor. XM 855 or XM 193? And why? I know m193 replaced m855 in the military but I am not ex military and simply don't have any first hand experience.

Many thanks
Mark
You have that transposed- M855 (62g green tip) replaced m193 (55g)....

That aside, neither are top tier anti personal rounds. For my 30+ years in the military, am855 has been the norm. Its adequate- with enough velocity, a function of barrel length. With a 14.5" M4, the max terminal range (where the bullet will tumble and cause a significant wound channel) is about 120m. With a 10.5" CQBR barrel, its about 50m.
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  #4  
Old 06-29-2020, 06:58 PM
DrkBlue DrkBlue is offline
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Of the two, I would pick M193 clone rounds due to the overall instability and wound track based on gelatin studies. You have one round, M193, that was designed when Ike was President, another optimized in the Gipper’s first term. M855. There has been a huge amount of relative advancement in intervening 40 years.

Real world? There are too many variables beyond the simple cartridge/bullet combo to evaluate, such as:
What is more natively accurate out of the particular firearm/barrel(s)?
Barrel length?
What level of accuracy is needed?
What are the anticipated ranges? Backstops? Intermediate barriers?
What would bad guys likely be wearing?
Seasonal differences on penetration and velocity?
Suppressed or non suppressed?

Me? I use primarily Gold Dot 55gr. That is based on analysis specific to my situation.

US military users have mostly moved to a new eco friendly M855A1 bullet over the last decade. Many units using the 10.5 or other shorter barrels seem to be using 69-75gr. bullets. I will defer to others for real expertise on these issues.
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  #5  
Old 06-29-2020, 07:02 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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M855A1 or MK262:/MK318 followed by 193, gold dots or solid copper are better than all of them other than M855A1 but that round is over a $1 a shot and very hard to get large amounts of and can have wear issues in some guns.

If you aim well nearly anything is fine but as stated above certain rounds have less frag distance than others. Modern civilian ammo is the best in terms of reliable expansion/effects, gold dots kill well as do SIGs solid copper and Barnes ammo in pigs requiring single hits if aimed well but can take them quickly even with not perfect shots.

Amax 45g is excellent if you prioritize lowest possible risk of collateral damage if you miss into a residential wall/house. I opt for hornady TAP 75g since it's good in that area and more reliable in target, rest of my mags are loaded with solid coppers or MK262 with the exception of the "stash" of 80 mags loaded with PPU M193
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Last edited by Striker2237; 06-29-2020 at 07:09 PM.
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  #6  
Old 06-29-2020, 07:59 PM
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By "anti-personnel round" I have to assume you mean in a home defense or other legally-justified self-protection setting. Pretty much any hollow point or soft-point round will do the job, and penetration through soft tissue will still be comparable to a heavy handgun round. FMJ ammo will grossly overpenetrate in any urban environment and should be avoided at all costs. Use it outdoors only or save it for when the North Koreans start parachuting down from the sky.
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  #7  
Old 06-29-2020, 10:06 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Pretty much any of the above listed rounds.

When used within the envelope of their limitations is going to give a serious attitude adjustment to any would be assailant when judiciously applied. The round was designed with this in mind. With that said, the M855 round has a well deserved reputation for very poor accuracy.

For factory ammunition in 5.56. This is a pretty well served market. I would not hesitate to run Black hills, Hornady critical defense, IMI or any number of other offerings in the better range of quality ammo. With that said, I like heavy for caliber bullets and my guns will run them. I generally run with either 62 grain or seventy grain Barnes TSX bullets over an appropriate dose of Varget.
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  #8  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:10 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
I opt for hornady TAP 75g since it's good in that area and more reliable in target
Me too.

Hornay Black 75 grain interlock HD SBR In my pistol.
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  #9  
Old 06-30-2020, 10:30 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Hornady TAP is an excellent choice.

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Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
Me too.

Hornay Black 75 grain interlock HD SBR In my pistol.
And if your gun will run it, then 75 grain is the way to go.
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  #10  
Old 06-30-2020, 12:43 PM
fnfalman fnfalman is offline
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I'd be leery of using any hollowpoint bullet that's labeled as OTM (Open Tip Match). These bullets were designed with the hollowpoints as a function of aerodynamics and not as a function of wounding potential.

Yes, yes, I know, Uncle Sam issues out cartridges with OTM. Uncle Sam is also constrained with the Geneva and Hague Conventions as well. OTMs had been deemed acceptable by JAG because the hollowpoints were not designed for greater wounding potential but for aerodynamics/accuracy.

I know that it's usually chic for civilians to use whatever the military use, but it's a good thing that in the civilian world, we are not obligated (at least not outside of New Jersey) to use ball ammo or ammo that approximates FMJ's wounding potentials. Any Softpoints or Hollowpoints designed for small games would be very fine. I wouldn't trust HPs that are designed for varminting because those bullets are designed to practically explode on contact - not much penetration for those kinds of bullets.

Or get the fancy ammo that Hornady and other respectable companies designed for police use.

However, after all this, I still stoke up on hard ball. 30-rounds of M193 will do some degrees of damage.
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  #11  
Old 06-30-2020, 01:00 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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SG ammo had IMI M-193 on sale not long ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
I'd be leery of using any hollowpoint bullet that's labeled as OTM (Open Tip Match). These bullets were designed with the hollowpoints as a function of aerodynamics and not as a function of wounding potential.

Yes, yes, I know, Uncle Sam issues out cartridges with OTM. Uncle Sam is also constrained with the Geneva and Hague Conventions as well. OTMs had been deemed acceptable by JAG because the hollowpoints were not designed for greater wounding potential but for aerodynamics/accuracy.

I know that it's usually chic for civilians to use whatever the military use, but it's a good thing that in the civilian world, we are not obligated (at least not outside of New Jersey) to use ball ammo or ammo that approximates FMJ's wounding potentials. Any Softpoints or Hollowpoints designed for small games would be very fine. I wouldn't trust HPs that are designed for varminting because those bullets are designed to practically explode on contact - not much penetration for those kinds of bullets.

Or get the fancy ammo that Hornady and other respectable companies designed for police use.

However, after all this, I still stoke up on hard ball. 30-rounds of M193 will do some degrees of damage.
285 dollars a thousand. I got several cases. And yes I would not hesitate to use it.
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  #12  
Old 06-30-2020, 01:47 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
I'd be leery of using any hollowpoint bullet that's labeled as OTM (Open Tip Match). These bullets were designed with the hollowpoints as a function of aerodynamics and not as a function of wounding potential.

Yes, yes, I know, Uncle Sam issues out cartridges with OTM. Uncle Sam is also constrained with the Geneva and Hague Conventions as well. OTMs had been deemed acceptable by JAG because the hollowpoints were not designed for greater wounding potential but for aerodynamics/accuracy.

I know that it's usually chic for civilians to use whatever the military use, but it's a good thing that in the civilian world, we are not obligated (at least not outside of New Jersey) to use ball ammo or ammo that approximates FMJ's wounding potentials. Any Softpoints or Hollowpoints designed for small games would be very fine. I wouldn't trust HPs that are designed for varminting because those bullets are designed to practically explode on contact - not much penetration for those kinds of bullets.

Or get the fancy ammo that Hornady and other respectable companies designed for police use.

However, after all this, I still stoke up on hard ball. 30-rounds of M193 will do some degrees of damage.
Your comment is kinda self defeating since the hornady police rounds are OTM match rounds....
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  #13  
Old 06-30-2020, 03:36 PM
fnfalman fnfalman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Your comment is kinda self defeating since the hornady police rounds are OTM match rounds....
Hornady 75-grains JHP InterLock. Not an OTM.

Hornady GMX TAP Patrol. Not an OTM.

Last edited by fnfalman; 06-30-2020 at 03:42 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-30-2020, 04:13 PM
dfariswheel dfariswheel is offline
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The answer is fairly simple....... ANY civilian sporting, expanding bullet ammo.
This is soft point, NOT hollow point ammo for the most part.
This is ammo that's designed for use on game animals and is designed to expand and "mushroom" when it hits.

What brand/type/or weight is not an issue, they all work as well as possible.
The only real consideration is that a specific one is reliable in your particular rifle.

As for a full metal jacket load, one of the best is still the 55 grain M193.
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  #15  
Old 06-30-2020, 08:44 PM
Markbo Markbo is offline
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Thanks everyone. I appreciate the input.
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  #16  
Old 06-30-2020, 10:23 PM
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When discussing defense loads for rifle calibers functional reliability is about the only thing you really need to be concerned with. Any bad guy struck in the torso with a bullet travelling nearly 3000fps is going down, no matter how big and tough he is. The complaints in the Middle East about ineffective 5.56 rounds were mostly due to shots fired beyond 150 yards from 14.5" barrels, hitting guys high on cannabis and bred from birth to be holy warriors. The doofus who breaks into your house at 3AM looking for stuff to steal and not expecting an AR in his face won't be a problem.
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  #17  
Old 06-30-2020, 10:29 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Amen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
When discussing defense loads for rifle calibers functional reliability is about the only thing you really need to be concerned with. Any bad guy struck in the torso with a bullet travelling nearly 3000fps is going down, no matter how big and tough he is. The complaints in the Middle East about ineffective 5.56 rounds were mostly due to shots fired beyond 150 yards from 14.5" barrels, hitting guys high on cannabis and bred from birth to be holy warriors. The doofus who breaks into your house at 3AM looking for stuff to steal and not expecting an AR in his face won't be a problem.
The long and the short of it right here!
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  #18  
Old 07-01-2020, 09:35 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
When discussing defense loads for rifle calibers functional reliability is about the only thing you really need to be concerned with. Any bad guy struck in the torso with a bullet travelling nearly 3000fps is going down, no matter how big and tough he is.
I am not sure the OP said anything about SD.

On a side note: The Army tried everything to try to keep the M16 alive. They have finally decided that no matter what cartridge they can stuff into the M16 / M4 it will not do what the Army needs on the modern battlefield. They are developing new ammo outside of the 5.56mm. A cartridge with a 6.8mm bullet is the future for Infantry and combat troops. 5.56mm will be reserved for the Combat Service Support.
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:56 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
I am not sure the OP said anything about SD.

On a side note: The Army tried everything to try to keep the M16 alive. They have finally decided that no matter what cartridge they can stuff into the M16 / M4 it will not do what the Army needs on the modern battlefield. They are developing new ammo outside of the 5.56mm. A cartridge with a 6.8mm bullet is the future for Infantry and combat troops. 5.56mm will be reserved for the Combat Service Support.
They've been "developing" something "new" for a decade or better.... a full 1/3rd of my career....

I'll believe it when I see it- but I won't hold my breath....
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:08 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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They've been "developing" something "new" for a decade or better.... a full 1/3rd of my career....

I'll believe it when I see it- but I won't hold my breath....
They are getting closer... fielding will 2022. It will be very close to what i have discussed before. It will support maneuver.
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  #21  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:16 AM
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I use Federal Tactical LE 55 grain BTHP #T223E for HD-AR. 3220fps @ the muzzel...But if the entire Marxist-Mob comes at one time, they are getting mil-spec stuff, I have a ton of that still at a lot cheaper cost. :-).
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  #22  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:24 AM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
I am not sure the OP said anything about SD.

On a side note: The Army tried everything to try to keep the M16 alive. They have finally decided that no matter what cartridge they can stuff into the M16 / M4 it will not do what the Army needs on the modern battlefield. They are developing new ammo outside of the 5.56mm. A cartridge with a 6.8mm bullet is the future for Infantry and combat troops. 5.56mm will be reserved for the Combat Service Support.
You mean the current battlefield.

I have been hearing the 6.8 will replace the 556 for 10+ years now.

As of now they have only made good on replacing the M9.
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:27 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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You mean the current battlefield.

I have been hearing the 6.8 will replace the 556 for 10+ years now.

As of now they have only made good on replacing the M9.
Not the 6.8 SPC, that is not good enough.
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  #24  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:48 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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You mean the current battlefield.
I know right? We might never get that right? Some people believe that the next war will be fought underground... really they do. I share your concern... We have fought with the wrong equipment many times.

I think that Chinese and Russian Body armor technologies have a lot to do with the decisions. The Chinese have lots of Soldiers, so I think we gotta prepared for that. I think we will cream them on a technology filled battfield, but if they can learn to defeat our advantages with computers, and air superiority then the Rifleman will be pretty important.
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  #25  
Old 07-01-2020, 11:09 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
You mean the current battlefield.

I have been hearing the 6.8 will replace the 556 for 10+ years now.

As of now they have only made good on replacing the M9.
Replacing the M9 took over 25 years.....
A 6.8 bullet- but no cartridge specifications. The ammunition is, at best, in the initial development stage- never mind actually TESTING it.... prototype rifles haven't even been received.

But yeah, they'll field in 18-24 months.....
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