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Old 06-22-2020, 08:54 PM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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2016 Alliant Reloader's Guide & a "DNR" notation.

I'm looking thru this guide (booklet) to get data for reloading 38spec & 357magnum.

On page 78, in the 38spec section, there's a "DNR" notation next to "Max Charge". Looks like the DNR is for "Do Not Reduce".

Is that a referral to the powder charge?

And if so, why?

I thought the rule of thumb is if only a max charge is listed, reduce by 10% for a starting charge.

Seems it only applies to 4 different powders (American Select, Bullseye, Unique & Power Pistol).

Someone please help me understand why the DNR?
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Old 06-22-2020, 09:08 PM
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RetiredRod RetiredRod is offline
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If I recall correctly (which is only about a 50/50 proposition these days) W296 & 110 are the 2 magnum powders they say not to reduce. I don't load in those upper regions.
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Old 06-22-2020, 09:18 PM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Thanks Rod, but neither of those are Alliant powders.
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  #4  
Old 06-22-2020, 09:38 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is offline
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From the Alliant Catalog:

"The powder charge weights listed in our data tables are
maximum. For rifle and pistol loads, the maximum powder
charge should be reduced by 10% to establish a minimum
or starting powder charge. The exceptions are those powder
charges designated “DNR” (Do Not Reduce).


There is also some information here concerning possible dangers of reduced loads:

https://faq.nosler.com/index.php?act...=48&artlang=en

Those powders where DNR appears have widely differing burn rates. So there are likely differing reasons for the differing cartridges.

-

-

Last edited by megafiddle; 06-22-2020 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 06-22-2020, 11:23 PM
Alland Alland is offline
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Due to the barrel/cylinder gap in a revolver a reduced load could lead to a bullet stuck in the barrel. 38 special is a very low pressure round and a reduced load may not reach a high enough pressure to completely burn.
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Old 06-23-2020, 06:34 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megafiddle View Post
From the Alliant Catalog:

"The powder charge weights listed in our data tables are
maximum. For rifle and pistol loads, the maximum powder
charge should be reduced by 10% to establish a minimum
or starting powder charge. The exceptions are those powder
charges designated “DNR” (Do Not Reduce).


There is also some information here concerning possible dangers of reduced loads:

https://faq.nosler.com/index.php?act...=48&artlang=en

Those powders where DNR appears have widely differing burn rates. So there are likely differing reasons for the differing cartridges.

-

-
So, what you are saying is that it only lists ONE charge weight per type of powder? Not a range? I don’t have that catalog.
As always, consult several sources of load data before venturing into a new load.
No way I’m using data that offers one load if that’s the case.
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Old 06-23-2020, 08:41 AM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
So, what you are saying is that it only lists ONE charge weight per type of powder? Not a range? I don’t have that catalog.

As always, consult several sources of load data before venturing into a new load.

No way I’m using data that offers one load if that’s the case.
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
The data also pertains to +P load for American Select. Not really concerned with that powder but I do have & use Bullseye & Power Pistol & there's a DNR in those charges, though for standard loads. The +P charges for those powders do not have a DNR.

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Old 06-23-2020, 08:45 AM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alland View Post
Due to the barrel/cylinder gap in a revolver a reduced load could lead to a bullet stuck in the barrel. 38 special is a very low pressure round and a reduced load may not reach a high enough pressure to completely burn.
So, the way I read this then is, use the max charge in the standard 38spec load as a start charge, work my way up to max on the +P charge...provided I choose to go that high

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Old 06-23-2020, 11:18 AM
mikld mikld is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
So, what you are saying is that it only lists ONE charge weight per type of powder? Not a range? I don’t have that catalog.
As always, consult several sources of load data before venturing into a new load.
No way I’m using data that offers one load if that’s the case.
One load for a specific powder. The OP didn't mention which powder is designated "DNR" but there are some powders that can be problematic if loaded less than listed data (erratic burning, spiky pressures, squibs and detonations). "Normally" if only one load is listed, without a DNR designation, it's common reloading practice to reduce that charge by 10% for starting loads...
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Last edited by mikld; 06-23-2020 at 11:20 AM.
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  #10  
Old 06-23-2020, 03:31 PM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Yeah, well, I'll just dig into the Hornady manual or follow along with the Hodgedon data, perhaps even consult Lyman or an old Speer or Sierra book before relying on one number. Specific powder for sure, but just one listing?? No way...
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  #11  
Old 06-23-2020, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
Yeah, well, I'll just dig into the Hornady manual or follow along with the Hodgedon data, perhaps even consult Lyman or an old Speer or Sierra book before relying on one number. Specific powder for sure, but just one listing?? No way...
Whimp, what are you so scared of?
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  #12  
Old 06-23-2020, 07:30 PM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikld View Post
One load for a specific powder. The OP didn't mention which powder is designated "DNR" but there are some powders that can be problematic if loaded less than listed data (erratic burning, spiky pressures, squibs and detonations). "Normally" if only one load is listed, without a DNR designation, it's common reloading practice to reduce that charge by 10% for starting loads...
You need to go back to my original post. Read it again & then tell me there's only ONE powder listed.

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  #13  
Old 06-23-2020, 07:42 PM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
So, what you are saying is that it only lists ONE charge weight per type of powder? Not a range? I don’t have that catalog.

As always, consult several sources of load data before venturing into a new load.

No way I’m using data that offers one load if that’s the case.
This is the data book i am referring to.

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Old 06-23-2020, 09:03 PM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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Many of the slower burning powders used to create 'Magnum' full power loads in .38 and .357 do not react well when the loads are reduced.

There is often still a lot of space in the relatively large cases.
Position sensitivity starts causing problems.
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Old 06-23-2020, 09:05 PM
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The photo doesn't show the bullet weight. And the data shown is for .38Spl, not .357Mag. Something is screwy. I have used Bullseye, Unique & PP in .38Spl with bullet weights from 124gr to 158gr with powder charges less than those shown. But I note that caution is only for Speer bullets and I don't think I've ever shot any Speer in .38Spl.
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Old 06-24-2020, 04:48 AM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredRod View Post
The photo doesn't show the bullet weight. And the data shown is for .38Spl, not .357Mag. Something is screwy. I have used Bullseye, Unique & PP in .38Spl with bullet weights from 124gr to 158gr with powder charges less than those shown. But I note that caution is only for Speer bullets and I don't think I've ever shot any Speer in .38Spl.
Sorry about the photo not showing complete data.
Bullet weight is for 125gr, and yeah, it's for Speer GDHP. I'm using 125gr XTP & Extreme Plated HP. IIRC, GDHP are plated instead of jacketed.
If I didn't use Bullseye & Power Pistol one of my go to powders, I probably wouldn't have broached this issue.

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Old 06-24-2020, 06:31 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brickeyee View Post
Many of the slower burning powders used to create 'Magnum' full power loads in .38 and .357 do not react well when the loads are reduced.

There is often still a lot of space in the relatively large cases.
Position sensitivity starts causing problems.
Absolutely, but at least there is a starting point NOT to go below. They still give a range, as is the case with 296.
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Old 06-24-2020, 06:37 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nork1911A1 View Post
This is the data book i am referring to.

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Well, seein’ as how this here pandemic is making us all use more toilet paper.....
No offense, please use a proper load manual. One I have lists a range for 4.5-5.3. Does it say anywhere in that thing that all loads listed are “starting” loads?
Perhaps something like that and not to exceed 10% over?
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:21 AM
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Grandpas50AE Grandpas50AE is offline
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If in question about load data in a mfg.'s manual, it is always a good idea to contact them and discuss with one of the ballistics experts there. They may have a misprint, or error transcribing data, etc. - or it may be completely right for their test equipment and conditions. It is also a good idea to always cross-reference load data from at least 3 sources. JME.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:12 AM
Viper_29 Viper_29 is offline
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Proper load manual? That IS a proper load manual, if it's not, then what exactly is? I agree with a phone call and/or cross referencing books but that's a perfectly acceptable load data. If you can't trust a book published by Alliant then that's a you problem and not the book.
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:09 AM
mikld mikld is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nork1911A1 View Post
You need to go back to my original post. Read it again & then tell me there's only ONE powder listed.

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Don't need to review the OP as I have seen the "DNR" designation for a specific powder, not a group of powders, just one specific powder listed in a manual. But you show a pic of a reloading manual with specific powders listed as DNR? In the pic, there are some powders listed with a range of charges, and some specific powders listed DNR. Not all powders listed for a bullet weight are DNR, just some specific powders. One of us is confused.

BTW, The manual you show has one listing for each powder, and like other manuals that do the same, it is common knowledge the listed charge is max. and to reduce the listed load for a starting load. I think if you look in the manual somewhere it will explaining the listing and how much to reduce for a starting load, except those listed as Do Not Reduce...
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Last edited by mikld; 06-24-2020 at 11:19 AM.
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  #22  
Old 06-24-2020, 11:10 AM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
Well, seein’ as how this here pandemic is making us all use more toilet paper.....

No offense, please use a proper load manual. One I have lists a range for 4.5-5.3. Does it say anywhere in that thing that all loads listed are “starting” loads?

Perhaps something like that and not to exceed 10% over?
No offense but....this manual was put out Alliant powder. This is manufacturer data. Are you telling me I shouldn't trust it? And if this isn't a proper manual, then please tell me what is.

I do cross reference my data with other published sources.

And I will be contacting Alliant about this issue.

But I came here first because of the knowledge that's available here.
I'm hoping that wasn't a mistake.

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  #23  
Old 06-24-2020, 11:28 AM
mikld mikld is offline
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If going to a forum for information, you have to be open minded about the answers. Some may seen odd to you, but mostly you get opinions and/or what an individual uses.
Quote:
I do cross reference my data with other published sources.
This sentence tells me you already have an answer at hand, and in my thinking is the correct method to use for finding a load. If I ever get confused/concerned about a variation in powder charges from manual to manual (and there are many differences), I go with the lowest list from among the manuals.

Go slow. Double check everything. Most important, have fun...
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2020, 08:26 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is offline
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The Alliant "Catalog" I referred to is the 2020 Reloader's Guide.

The pdf file is labeled as "AP392_2020_AlliantPowderCatalog_SinglePages"

and can be downloaded here:

https://www.alliantpowder.com/resources/catalog.aspx

Charges shown are maximum, and DNR is "Do Not Reduce" (from the maximum charge shown).

-

Last edited by megafiddle; 06-24-2020 at 09:10 PM.
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  #25  
Old 06-24-2020, 08:50 PM
Big Pete10 Big Pete10 is offline
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I have seen DNR on certain loads with jacketed bullets loaded in .38 Specials. I don't remember the exact info. It was either due to possible jacket separation or danger of a squib load.
A note----I had a couple squibs(231 powder) when I switched from Hornady lead HBWC bullets to Berry's plated HBWC bullets and to note also you're supposed to use lead bullet data for plated bullets, it did not work for me. Be careful...................
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