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  #1  
Old 04-18-2018, 01:26 PM
Bob Rockefeller Bob Rockefeller is online now
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How much of a Wilson Combat Berreta is made by Wilson Combat?

Are the Wilson Combat Berretas production guns that Wilson Combat does no work on themselves? Are they made by Beretta, to Wilson specs with some Wilson parts?

Or are they Beretta production guns that Wilson Combat receives and upgrades with their parts and gunsmiths?
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Old 04-18-2018, 02:06 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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I think -- pending a more "certain" post by someone else --- that it's closer to the latter; but with the exception that it is a coordinated manufacturing enterprise, with the Berreta "part" of the manufacturing process arriving at Wilson as a specially planned/designated-for-Wilson batch... Not including those parts that Wilson has designed and installs in Berryville as upgrades over a base Berreta. Not "just any" batch of Berreta's pulled off the Berreta line. Probably little or no "waste" of "base" Berreta parts that are replaced by Wilson's upgrades.

Not saying this ^^^ with any inside knowledge or any certainty of being correct. Just prior career experiences with other types of shared manufacturing processes; it's what generally makes economic sense.
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Old 04-18-2018, 02:30 PM
Bob Rockefeller Bob Rockefeller is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
I think -- pending a more "certain" post by someone else --- that it's closer to the latter; but with the exception that it is a coordinated manufacturing enterprise, with the Berreta "part" of the manufacturing process arriving at Wilson as a specially planned/designated-for-Wilson batch... Not including those parts that Wilson has designed and installs in Berryville as upgrades over a base Berreta. Not "just any" batch of Berreta's pulled off the Berreta line. Probably little or no "waste" of "base" Berreta parts that are replaced by Wilson's upgrades.

Not saying this ^^^ with any inside knowledge or any certainty of being correct. Just prior career experiences with other types of shared manufacturing processes; it's what generally makes economic sense.
Personally, I would like to know that Wilson Combat gunsmiths had something to do with that gun, even if it were just to fit Wilson Combat parts, checker the frame, and do the trigger job.

I think it would be an even more compelling offering if the Wilson Combat customer service policy went with the pistol. Even if they had to charge more for that, knowing that if something were not right, I'd be back with Wilson Combat and not swimming by myself with Berreta.
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Old 04-18-2018, 02:44 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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I'll bet that we'll have a good answer before this thread is concluded.

+1911 for an excellent OP/Thread starter.

---

I've decided, after much back-and-forth thinking, that this product is not for me --- I'm a "1911 and AR person". But I still think it is a great product for those who aren't quite so "married" to the 1911, and I'd be interested to know more about the manufacturing/building details.
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Old 04-18-2018, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Rockefeller View Post
Personally, I would like to know that Wilson Combat gunsmiths had something to do with that gun, even if it were just to fit Wilson Combat parts, checker the frame, and do the trigger job.

I think it would be an even more compelling offering if the Wilson Combat customer service policy went with the pistol. Even if they had to charge more for that, knowing that if something were not right, I'd be back with Wilson Combat and not swimming by myself with Berreta.
You can email or call them and ask if their customer service policy covers the Beretta Brigadier Tactical and/or Centurion Tactical to get an official answer on that. As to the parts question - the last I was told about Wilson gunsmiths having something to do with the gun is that the gun is made by Beretta to the specs defined by Wilson Combat, and the only thing the gunsmiths can do (because of ATF tax codes) before sending it to the customer's FFL is the action tune (Wilson parts) and the magazine guide on the butt (this action tune includes trigger work); after that, the customer can send it to Wilson for any number of upgrades (sights, modified trigger bar, etc.).

Perhaps WCR can provide an official answer if he sees this thread/question. Things could have changed since the last information I had (mid-2016).
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Old 04-18-2018, 02:50 PM
Bob Rockefeller Bob Rockefeller is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandpas50AE View Post
You can email or call them and ask if their customer service policy covers the Beretta Brigadier Tactical and/or Centurion Tactical to get an official answer on that.
The purchase page for the pistols says:

---
All Wilson Combat exclusive Beretta firearms carry a One-Year Limited Warranty to the original purchaser for defects in materials or workmanship through Beretta USA.

*Please Note*

If the original purchaser registers their firearm with Beretta USA, they automatically receive an additional two years of warranty coverage for a total of three years.

Wilson Combat is not a Beretta authorized repair center and all warranty service and repairs must be handled by Beretta USA.

If you have any issue with a Wilson Combat exclusive Beretta model please contact Beretta USA directly at 1-800-BERETTA x 2003 or online at:

http://www.berettasupport.com/servic...rm_repairs.htm
---
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  #7  
Old 04-18-2018, 02:56 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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^^^^

That is indeed different from Wilson's other firearms. Worthy of taking note.
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Old 04-18-2018, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Rockefeller View Post
The purchase page for the pistols says:

---
All Wilson Combat exclusive Beretta firearms carry a One-Year Limited Warranty to the original purchaser for defects in materials or workmanship through Beretta USA.

*Please Note*

If the original purchaser registers their firearm with Beretta USA, they automatically receive an additional two years of warranty coverage for a total of three years.

Wilson Combat is not a Beretta authorized repair center and all warranty service and repairs must be handled by Beretta USA.

If you have any issue with a Wilson Combat exclusive Beretta model please contact Beretta USA directly at 1-800-BERETTA x 2003 or online at:

http://www.berettasupport.com/servic...rm_repairs.htm
---
That looks like a pretty official and definitive answer to me, thanks.
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  #9  
Old 04-18-2018, 04:41 PM
bjeffv bjeffv is offline
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Parts and design by Wilson and the gun is made in the USA by competent people. I don't see anything wrong with that. I believe this model has an increase slide to frame fit/tolerance. I did have Wilson do the trigger job, mag well guide, and spring upgrade on mine.

Hands down my favorite handgun at the moment. I shoot it often. I have kind of sidelined my 1911s in favor of this gun.
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bjeffv View Post
Parts and design by Wilson and the gun is made in the USA by competent people. I don't see anything wrong with that. I believe this model has an increase slide to frame fit/tolerance. I did have Wilson do the trigger job, mag well guide, and spring upgrade on mine.

Hands down my favorite handgun at the moment. I shoot it often. I have kind of sidelined my 1911s in favor of this gun.
I can understand that, it is one of the smoothest shooting guns I've had the pleasure of shooting!
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:37 PM
Bob Rockefeller Bob Rockefeller is online now
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Originally Posted by bjeffv View Post
Parts and design by Wilson and the gun is made in the USA by competent people. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I do. The Wilson Combat brand means more that “competent.”

Quote:
I have kind of sidelined my 1911s in favor of this gun.
Blasphemy!
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:41 PM
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I do. The Wilson Combat brand means more that “competent.”



Blasphemy!


I will always be a 1911 guy, but this Centurion is a first class firearm in all respects!
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Rockefeller View Post
Personally, I would like to know that Wilson Combat gunsmiths had something to do with that gun, even if it were just to fit Wilson Combat parts, checker the frame, and do the trigger job.

I think it would be an even more compelling offering if the Wilson Combat customer service policy went with the pistol. Even if they had to charge more for that, knowing that if something were not right, I'd be back with Wilson Combat and not swimming by myself with Berreta.
Oh it is definitely covered by Wilson, mine had a minor issue with the slide stop scratching the frame and they refinished the ENTIRE gun for me and corrected the fit and had it back to me in slightly more than a week. Not sure if this is going to be the norm but I was at least take care really well and better than I expected.
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:00 PM
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Oh it is definitely covered by Wilson, mine had a minor issue with the slide stop scratching the frame and they refinished the ENTIRE gun for me and corrected the fit and had it back to me in slightly more than a week. Not sure if this is going to be the norm but I was at least take care really well and better than I expected.

Sometimes it is less painful for the customer for us to take care of minor issues.

These guns are built by Beretta USA with parts and specs selected by us. The trigger, sights, guide rod, grips are Wilson Combat parts. The rest are a combination of Beretta's best parts (stainless Elite barrel, metal decockers, Beretta extended mag catch)

We inspect every gun that comes in from Beretta. If a customer requests an action tune or mag guide we perform those services here.

These are great guns and we are proud to offer them with our logo but they are built by Beretta to our list of part and tolerance specs.
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:10 PM
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WC Berettas

Bob Rockefeller:

I own both a Brig Tac and a Cen Tac, both with the action tune and chrome silicon springs. Both are outstanding pistols that I value highly.

Beretta manufactures these pistols using some WC parts to WC specs. The only thing WC does to these pistols is the optional action tune and the mag guide to the Brig Tac since it comes standard with the lanyard loop. The only exception that I am aware of aside from some problematic examples is there was a run of Brig Tacs very early on that didn't come with the 'D' springs and possibly with the metal lanyard loop.

If you ever peruse the Beretta forum there have been eamples of substandard pistols coming out of the new factory in Tennessee. Issues include poorly machined slides, poor finish, ugly staking jobs on the extractor pin and evidently looser than expected slide/frame fit with resulting slop according to a few members. It appears WC has stepped up to the plate when required to fix these issues when they are made aware of them. While some of these complaints certainly have validity the few members complaining of poor slide/frame fit haven't posted any pictures or video demonstrating this. Not to say they aren't valid in their complaints mind you. Mine aren't the tightest pistols I have ever owned, but are pretty darn good and the barrel/slide lock-up is bank vault tight.

IMHO, the value of these pistols for Beretta fans is that Bill Wilson convinced Beretta to build the Beretta that most Beretta fans would build for themselves. Beretta began producing the brig slide after several years and also produced frames with front and backstrap checkering. In the Cen Tac Beretta introduced the Vertec style slide with the replaceable front sight on a Centurian sized pistol. On the Brig Tac Beretta produced the Elite II style shortened stainless barrel with the target crown which you also see on the Cen Tac. Add to all of that are metal parts, 'D' spring and skeletonized hammer. Beretta hadn't produced a pistol like this for several years, and used examples of those pistols like the Elite II had begun to sell for a premium similar to what WC charges for one of their Berettas. The only thing I might add to my WC Berettas were I to spec one out would be front slide serrations, but that is just a personal preference. As a Beretta fan I couldn't be happier with the WC/Beretta collaboration. I can buy a production. Pistol that I would have had to pay a premuim to spec out if I could somehow find a base pistol that would fit the bill to begin with.
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by WilsonCombatRep View Post
Sometimes it is less painful for the customer for us to take care of minor issues.

These guns are built by Beretta USA with parts and specs selected by us. The trigger, sights, guide rod, grips are Wilson Combat parts. The rest are a combination of Beretta's best parts (stainless Elite barrel, metal decockers, Beretta extended mag catch)

We inspect every gun that comes in from Beretta. If a customer requests an action tune or mag guide we perform those services here.

These are great guns and we are proud to offer them with our logo but they are built by Beretta to our list of part and tolerance specs.
In that case thanks a lot for doing that for me, it is indeed one of my favorite 9mm guns and the best example of a Beretta I have seen
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:06 PM
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I can understand that, it is one of the smoothest shooting guns I've had the pleasure of shooting!
So, where is your range report on your Centurion? Not that I need to hear more great reviews, as I am still trying to resist the temptation.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:17 PM
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So, where is your range report on your Centurion? Not that I need to hear more great reviews, as I am still trying to resist the temptation.
Every weekend since I got it, it has been 40* with 30 - 40 mph winds and/or rain. I'm chaffing at the bit to get it out to the range. I did get to shoot a few of them at the Hackathorn/Vickers class last September, so I do know how smooth and sweet they shoot. So far, I have about 1 week's worth of dry fire practice on it, still very sweet. This coming Saturday is supposed to rain, be down in the 50's with 20 - 25 mph winds again, so maybe if it clears up Sunday I will be able to get it to the range and post a report. I stil love the Ameriglo front sight!
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:46 PM
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How much of a Wilson Combat Berreta is made by Wilson Combat?

I can confirm what WCR stated after having a long discussion on the subject with a Beretta employee who is knowledgeable on the topic. Actually we were discussing the implications of what constitutes a Mass compliant 92/M9. A real shocker, the WC Berettas do not seem to be compliant. Although not because of any physical changes between a stock 92 fs / brigadier, but simply because it is branded as a “Wilson design”. And Wilson branded models aren’t on the compliance list. I can’t even buy the Beretta Langdon model for the same reason.

I also agree that the cosmetics of the Italian production are much better. Reading between the lines, the message for me was to buy a Mass compliant Italian gun and send it to be run though the Wilson customization program. I’ve been a pretty good Beretta shotgun customer over the years, so they tend to give me accurate information when I ask questions.

I currently own two 92 FS, one INOX, the other black. Both were made in Italy and one was built before Beretta began using plastic parts. I’ve upgraded both to the Wilson steel parts. Both are good pistols, but they are not in the same league as my GCT, or even my Smith PC1911.

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Old 04-18-2018, 10:38 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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For some dyed-in-the-wool Wilson enthusiasts, a firearm that's not fitted and finished by a Wilson pistolsmith isn't going to have the same personal meaning (for lack of a better word) as a firearm that's built from the ground up in Berryville. This makes sense for these customers, perhaps especially so for those who've toured Wilson's Berryville facilities.

On the other hand, for those not caring about the provenance, but instead focused on how well it functions, the distinction between built by Beretta pistolsmiths and built by Wilson pistolsmiths might well be not so important. These types of people just want to know "does it work well?".

No right or wrong, but it is helpful for each interested buyer to know the details of these guns' provenance and his own sentiments towards these details.
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:21 AM
Bob Rockefeller Bob Rockefeller is online now
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
On the other hand, for those not caring about the provenance, but instead focused on how well it functions, the distinction between built by Beretta pistolsmiths and built by Wilson pistolsmiths might well be not so important. These types of people just want to know "does it work well?".

No right or wrong, but it is helpful for each interested buyer to know the details of these guns' provenance and his own sentiments towards these details.
While perfectly true, if "works well" is the criteria, then Wilson Combat 1911s are not "better" than Dan Wesson 1911s.

And if "works well" is what the customer wants, then there are many brands of pistol that would suit.

I'm just saying the Wilson Combat brand "means" something that the Wilson Combat Berettas don't provide.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:37 PM
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I have a Brigadier Tactical, and I can tell you that it is a truly outstanding Pistol. Beretta is one of the top dogs out there, and they execute each one to Wilson's Specifications using Wilson's Parts, and if a Wilson rep has an issue with a particular unit, they say it won't go out. The trigger is exceptional and the slide moves like it is on Ball bearings.
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Old 04-19-2018, 01:22 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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Originally Posted by Bob Rockefeller View Post
While perfectly true, if "works well" is the criteria, then Wilson Combat 1911s are not "better" than Dan Wesson 1911s.

And if "works well" is what the customer wants, then there are many brands of pistol that would suit.

I'm just saying the Wilson Combat brand "means" something that the Wilson Combat Berettas don't provide.
These are my sentiments as well Bob. Beginning with your first post (OP) here, I sensed what you were getting at, because I think in a similar manner.

But with my post #20, I also wanted to give recognition to other people who might, with equal legitimacy, think a little differently. I understand their thinking as well.

And in a nod to their way of thinking, if they love the Beretta M9 design, then I can also understand why they wouldn't object to the gun being built by Beretta. Although enhanced by Wilson components, these guns remain a Beretta at their core; and that surely is not a negative to a Beretta enthusiast.

I just happen to be a "built by Wilson pistolsmith" enthusiast ... and that's o.k. too.

This has been a good thread, with excellent contributions from a variety of perspectives ... and most of us have probably learned something we did not know before.
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Rockefeller View Post
I'm just saying the Wilson Combat brand "means" something that the Wilson Combat Berettas don't provide.
Have you shot one?

If not, I urge you to do so before passing judgement.

I can promise you that these are not just some fancy parts slapped on a gun by a bubba gun smith at the kitchen table.

Everything works together on this gun.
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_R View Post
Have you shot one?

If not, I urge you to do so before passing judgement.

I can promise you that these are not just some fancy parts slapped on a gun by a bubba gun smith at the kitchen table.

Everything works together on this gun.
IMHO, Tom, you and Bob are both right.

There are those who focus purely on the gun itself ... which makes perfect sense.

And there are those who feel a connection to the Wilson pistolsmiths, perhaps even via a shop visit and in-person meeting. This also makes perfect sense, for those who have a deep interest in the provenance of their gun.

In the world of art, there may be impressionist paintings by unknown artists which rival or even surpass one of the more mundane paintings by Monet. And such paintings may be every bit as satisfying to many people who are focused on the qualities of the painting itself. But for others, it is not the same; and their perspective is reasonable as well.

Again, you're both right from your viewing perspective and priorities. And your comments have helped to make this an excellent thread.

A pair of +1911s.
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