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  #1  
Old 12-26-2016, 04:20 PM
Mnr45701 Mnr45701 is offline
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I need a critique.

Gun: Rem 1911 R1
Ammo: handload: .45 ACP 185g LSWC, 4.8g TiteGroup; brass was fired once before and showed no signs of potential of head separation.

Experience: On the outdoor pistol range, slow rate of fire. The 2nd round of the 2nd magazine blew back on me. The pressure forced the next round in the mag back into the case, there was little micro-shrapnel and my hands and face were peppered a little bit. No damage to my eye protection.

I've attached a couple pics. So what happened?

Respectfully,
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_8407.JPG   IMG_8406.JPG   IMG_8408.JPG  

Last edited by Mnr45701; 12-26-2016 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Typo, enhanced description of event details
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  #2  
Old 12-26-2016, 06:09 PM
baer78 baer78 is offline
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Round could have been setback?over charged?headspace issue?can you see how far the case is into the chamber?
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  #3  
Old 12-26-2016, 06:29 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Either setback or overcharge...

I don't use Tightgroup, so I'm not familiar with its characteristics. Most of my .45 reloading is done with 200gn SWC over Hodgsons Clays. Clays is a very fast burning powder; the difference between max load and catastrophic failure is mesured in fractions of grains. Likewise, very small setback could result in very high pressures, and unpleasant results.

If you're running 4.8gn, thats a relatively low charge weight- generally speaking- for a .45 load. A lot of loads are in the 7gn range, depending on powder. I'd assume its a relatively fast powder. I run 3.9 of Clays, which is pushing the max....
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  #4  
Old 12-26-2016, 06:59 PM
tomintexas tomintexas is online now
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I would bet on double charge

Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Either setback or overcharge..
If you're running 4.8gn, thats a relatively low charge weight- generally speaking- for a .45 load. A lot of loads are in the 7gn range, depending on powder.
Hogdon shows Titegroup at 5.0 min to 5.5 max for 185 JSWC. I am experienced at this using Titegroup. Had a case head seperation on a brand new Les Baer. Split the grips and blew the magazine out the bottom.

I have gone away from Titegroup because it is dense (weight/volume) and I have a hard time telling if it is a single charge or double charge when viewed in my Dillon. Started using Bullseye because a double charge of 4.0 grains almost runs the case over.

Would bet my Social Security raise that this is the problem.
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Old 12-26-2016, 07:12 PM
john1badass45 john1badass45 is offline
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I have loaded thousands of .45 using TG and never had a problem but since it is so fast I would say like the others you had a double charge or set back due to weak neck tension on the round.It can happen to anyone using a fast powder like TG you just have to be super focused while loading and have a good light to see in the case after the powder drop.
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  #6  
Old 12-26-2016, 07:49 PM
Mnr45701 Mnr45701 is offline
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Hey, Y'all. Thanks for your feedback.

The round was definitely fully chambered. I had the thumb safety engaged prior to shooting. The projectile could indeed have set back some though I use a slight taper crimp on these builds because they don't want to feed w/out the crimp. I had zero trouble extracting the case from the chamber; swizzle stick pusher.

My set up is very compact b/c i expect to move aboard the boat one of these days and sell the house. So I have a hand press, and I measure by weight every single case. I trickle the last 1/10's in and then lift the pan and remeasure. It's tedious but I like the method. Once the case is charged I immediately move the case from the red tray over to the white tray. Once a tray is charged I seat the rounds one by one which begins with a visual inspection of the powder level. (I prep a case marked so that it shows me a double charge for comparison. If I have any doubt at all I dump and re-weigh. Is there any hole in that method other than operator error?

And you're right, it's a small amount to weigh, it's fast burning, and there's not a lot of room for error with that powder.

So does case head separation seem to be the most likely cause?

Last edited by Mnr45701; 12-27-2016 at 01:52 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-27-2016, 03:24 AM
Cappi Cappi is offline
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Having pushed sensible limits on bullet setback tests in 45, I don't think there's any way bullet set back could cause that much overpressure .

45 isn't a high pressure rnd
and 4.8 TiteGroup under a 185 gr is a light charge to begin with

For those that have seen more blowouts and/or more blowout pics than me, is it common for the whole case head to shear off like that?
Seen lots of pics of blowouts, but can't recall seeing any where the whole head sheared off

My thoughts are the case had defects from the get go

..L.T.A.
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:22 AM
redgum redgum is offline
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My guess (fwiw) based on the fact that the next round, still in the magazine, had its 185g projectile dislodged and deep-seated from the blast, .....not enough crimp[*] on the case mouth. If the bullet can be moved/pushed in by that blast, imagine what's happening when it makes it's journey into the chamber... slamming forward in the magazine with the recoil of the preceding shot(s),...hitting the feed ramp, barrel throat and barrel hood, before finally coming to rest in the chamber.
As mentioned, I think more neck tension (crimp) on the bullet is required

[ * Semi-autos cartridges like the .45acp require a taper-crimp as opposed to a roll-crimp]
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:23 AM
huntershooter huntershooter is offline
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What case was it?

We've had problems with RP cases in the past wit lack of neck tension/setback.
The older RP cases were pretty thin- and I no longer use them.
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:29 AM
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Grandpas50AE Grandpas50AE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappi View Post
Having pushed sensible limits on bullet setback tests in 45, I don't think there's any way bullet set back could cause that much overpressure .

45 isn't a high pressure rnd
and 4.8 TiteGroup under a 185 gr is a light charge to begin with

For those that have seen more blowouts and/or more blowout pics than me, is it common for the whole case head to shear off like that?
Seen lots of pics of blowouts, but can't recall seeing any where the whole head sheared off

My thoughts are the case had defects from the get go

..L.T.A.
I tend to agree Cappi, I have only seen a complete separation like that once, back in the 70's; I think that was a defective or weak case from the get-go, especially how the OP described his loading techniques.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:52 AM
Mnr45701 Mnr45701 is offline
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Thanks, Redgum. I'll give it a look. I do tend to stay on the light side of crimp pressure. I've been told to not even worry about a crimp on these rounds but none of my pistols want to feed them without a crimp so I added a taper crimp. I'll do a little testing and look into tweaking it a tad bit. Cheers.
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:25 PM
broadus123 broadus123 is online now
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I think you had a weak case and it let go. 45s are low pressure, so it doesn't happen often. I used titegroup for years, never had a problem with it. I just saw one just like that shot from a 9mm major. Higher pressure than a 45, but it can happen with a weak piece of brass.
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:27 PM
broadus123 broadus123 is online now
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I also use a small amount of crimp on all my bullets. They just feed better.
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2017, 12:53 PM
Mnr45701 Mnr45701 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntershooter View Post
What case was it?

We've had problems with RP cases in the past wit lack of neck tension/setback.
The older RP cases were pretty thin- and I no longer use them.
I'm not sure because that 50 rnd lot was a mix of three manufacturers. RP is one of the three used but was fairly new I think. I couldn't locate the case head.
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Old 01-09-2017, 05:25 PM
The Stank The Stank is offline
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Double charge is the most likely culprit.
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  #16  
Old 01-10-2017, 08:13 PM
TjB101 TjB101 is offline
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I need a critique.

How are you throwing the charge? Measuring every 10th round?


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Old 01-10-2017, 08:21 PM
Mnr45701 Mnr45701 is offline
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I have a very compact set up so I weigh every single charge and have a method for verifying charge weight. Tedious but accurate in the quality assurance realm.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:41 AM
BruceM BruceM is offline
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Quote:
I think more neck tension (crimp) on the bullet is required
This is not the case. Crimping does not increase neck tension especially as related to taper crimping. Neck tension is created by a tight fit between the bullet and the case walls. To increase neck tension you need an expander which is at least .002" smaller than the diameter of the bullets you are using plus a sizing die which will uniformly reduce the I.D. of case to less than the diameter of the expander. Case wall thickness varies between brands of brass so depending on the brass you are using a special sizing die may be necessary. This is, of course if the problem is bullet setback. I would check the I.D. of sized cases before expanding and the diameter of your expander just to be sure. Taper crimping is done to remove case mouth flare from the expanding operation and not to press the case mouth into the sides of the bullet.

If the destroyed case was easily removed from the chamber I would also suspect a defective case and not a double or over charge of propellant.

Bruce

Last edited by BruceM; 01-11-2017 at 12:43 AM.
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  #19  
Old 01-11-2017, 07:36 AM
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Agree that in all probability it was a defective care. The lower 180 degree of the case shows an outward, ragged separation of the case head ( as would be expected at the point where the case is unsupported); tHe upper 180 degree is soot covered with a rather smooth cut line which shows the case "unzipped" at that point. The only way to positively confrim this is to do a micro-structure analyst of the fracture surface and that's just too expensive.

Sorry if I sound too ... Smart a**. ..... This sort of thing comes almost second nature to me. Use to do accident investigations as a living.
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Old 01-22-2017, 08:00 AM
Texasref Texasref is offline
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I agree with those who think a defective case was at fault.
Sometimes you won't notice especially at the rim/case wall intersection. And separation can happen with any powder.

Had a 9mm case split. No signs of a crack at all. Blowback in my face and blew the mag out the bottom. The good news in both our cases the gun did exactly what it was meant to do. Contain the round and expel the gases.

Glad to hear you weren't hurt.
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:57 AM
Kilibreaux Kilibreaux is offline
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Well, the .45 ACP is "rated" maximum around 20K psi, however the case can take considerably more before completely blowing apart as is shown in your photos. Note that the case exploded directly through the thick, but unsupportable web just ahead of the ACP's generous extraction groove. This means chamber pressure was so high the case walls never had a chance to release from the chamber wall as the slide moved back and the instant the barrel unlocked from the slide, the case blew the back off, leaving the body in the chamber.
First, this is what is nice about steel frame 1911's...they're strong. I suspect most polymer pistols would have shattered the grip frame with such a blow-up.
Since TiteGroup is a dense, fast burning powder, the potential for a double charge is is high which is probably what happened.

Last edited by Kilibreaux; 01-23-2017 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 02-08-2017, 04:49 AM
subscriber subscriber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappi View Post
is it common for the whole case head to shear off like that?
Seen lots of pics of blowouts, but can't recall seeing any where the whole head sheared off

My thoughts are the case had defects from the get go
Case walls separated everywhere, even where supported by barrel hood. Material looks necked down (thin) at extraction groove, instead of thick in the web, like it is supposed to. So, another vote for defective cartridge.




My advice: Take a few empties from this batch and section them to see how thick the cases are.


This thread reminds me a little of the blown case shown below, due to a circular crack in the head (apparent manufacturing defect).
From: http://m14forum.com/handguns/278393-...ml#post2455705


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Last edited by subscriber; 02-08-2017 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 02-08-2017, 05:39 AM
Mnr45701 Mnr45701 is offline
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I agree with the 'defective case' theory as well. I did check out the cases from the batch after shooting. Nothing measured out of spec with those. I have very high confidence that it was not a double charge. I weigh out every charge and trickle in the last couple tenths, and move the charge car to a different tray to stage for bullet seating. That tray is a different color than the previous tray sitting on an seperate bench area. I check the digital scale with a calibration weight every tray of 50. And I use a couple other disciplines to minimize the error potential. I never stop a tray proving until all 50 are seated and weighed for an idiot check. Only when those 50 are boxed and labeled do I take a short walk-about. Mistakes can happen but I take great pains to prevent them. So yes, I think it was a defective case.

Thank you all who have or will offer an opinion. I'm interested to read them.
Cheers!
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Old 02-08-2017, 03:12 PM
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Hi Mnr,

I suppose the case head was lost, or you would have shown that too?

If you could find that and show pics of the front and rear, that would be instructive. If the case head is not flattened and enlarged in diameter, with a grossly expanded primer pocket, that would point to a "normal pressure" event and a weak case. If the case head is flattened, enlarged in diameter with a gaping primer pocket, then a "double charge" is back on the table.

Not .45 ACP, but you get the idea:




Here is another blown 1911 thread that may make interesting reading: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=478086






Quote:
Originally Posted by hal copple View Post
one of the Glock shooters in my IDPA squad yesterday had a "blow up" right in front of us. He had a round blow out the magazine and sting his hand, without any punctures from brass or gun parts. We all looked at the spent case, it appeared to have a case failure around the rim. We weren't able to discern what manufacture the case was, or if it was an over-charge or a weakened case, or maybe a little of both. His pistol seemed to be unharmed. It was the opinion of several experienced re-loaders watching him shoot that it did not seem like a double charge, but more likely a nearly separated case that got past his inspection.
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Last edited by subscriber; 02-08-2017 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 02-08-2017, 03:20 PM
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Reading pressure signs: https://www.primalrights.com/article...nding-pressure

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