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  #1  
Old 06-28-2016, 08:57 PM
bbrovold bbrovold is offline
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Run, Hide, Fight

Our major medical company workplace safety (violence) training rolled out today with those words of wisdom and in that order.
In the event of a workplace violence incident:
Run- run away from the incident.
Hide - post your posterior in a locked room.
Fight - only as a last resort.

You must remember that the cafeteria prides itself on not caging the pork or giving the pigs antibiotics before they slaughter the little buggers and feed them to us. I guess they should have run away or gone into hiding.
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  #2  
Old 06-29-2016, 11:00 AM
n of 1 n of 1 is offline
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Tis what it is. At least people are talking about it.
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  #3  
Old 06-29-2016, 11:25 AM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Fight is option #1 for me because I carry. If the situation allows me a shot, I'll take it.

Run: ---- Yes. If EVERYONE can run away, the active shooter situation becomes a lone standoff situation. That's good.

Hide: Yes, If your hide is absolutely secure. Or so damn crafty you're impossible to find.

But "everyone in an office w/ the door blocked" is just a Fish Barrel. Bust a window & get out. Bust through the drywall into the next room & get out. Run to the stairs.

& pull the fire alarm.
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  #4  
Old 06-29-2016, 11:29 AM
Broker50 Broker50 is online now
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Too old to run, too fat to hide, & neither are in my nature.........I may have one fight left in me, though.
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  #5  
Old 06-29-2016, 11:34 AM
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AdamG247 AdamG247 is offline
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I chose the latter. The former two options are not in my play book. But I will be armed and ready for this possibility. If I were caught unarmed, well, then running slowly might be my choice. But I would fight if I found a way to do it with any chance of success.

Old Guys with little to lose can be very dangerous if cornered.
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  #6  
Old 06-29-2016, 11:50 AM
1911GTF 1911GTF is online now
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>> major medical company workplace safety... Run, Hide, Fight.

that's the only order of things they can legally tell you to do, otherwise they'd be liable for some serious litigation. I'm actually surprised they even included fight in that list.
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  #7  
Old 06-29-2016, 12:05 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
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I'm a DHS certified Run Hide Fight instructor.

You have to remember unlike the majority of us on this forum the general public will not be carrying. They will not be veterans, they will NOT be ready, willing or able to actively fight for their own lives.

The Run Hide Fight program was created give some guidelines to people who until very recently chose to completely ignore the fact that life can sometimes take a nasty turn. Its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but its a start.
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Old 06-29-2016, 12:52 PM
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AdamG247 AdamG247 is offline
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Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
I'm a DHS certified Run Hide Fight instructor.

You have to remember unlike the majority of us on this forum the general public will not be carrying. They will not be veterans, they will NOT be ready, willing or able to actively fight for their own lives.

The Run Hide Fight program was created give some guidelines to people who until very recently chose to completely ignore the fact that life can sometimes take a nasty turn. Its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but its a start.
Good points. The masses of Sheeple will all hide and run.

Maybe instead of this curriculum of run and hide crap. We should be teaching them Self Defense and Gun handling safety stuff. How about "Break into two groups" and move to opposite ends of room. Then when the Perp is shooting at one group the other can flank him and smash his skull in with a fire extinguisher, chair, lamp, kitchen knife...

How about teaching them how to use standard Office equipment and furniture as defensive weapons. Weapons can be made out of many things. Most people just don't see the potential. Show them....

Now wonder they keep coming. Everyone Runs or hides. Perfect shooting gallery. Little to no threat until SWAT arrives and take 4 hours to engage.

I say Confront, Aggress and Defend is better. But yeah, we talking about sheep here right?
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  #9  
Old 06-29-2016, 01:02 PM
Broker50 Broker50 is online now
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No offense, but I find it bizarre that a federal agency, DHS, certifies people to teach other people to "run, hide, fight". This is certainly NOT the America I grew up in. Obama's America is not even a shadow of her former self...........
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  #10  
Old 06-29-2016, 01:04 PM
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DHS = Department of Homicidal Sheep
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  #11  
Old 06-29-2016, 01:21 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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A little over a year ago, I was assigned to the headquarters of the army's Special Warfare Center and School as a projects officer. I worked in the building that housed the Command, on the largest US troop installation in the world. I was asked to be the physical security manager for the floor I worked, normal and appropriate additional duty. Mixed staff, green suiters (all SOF types of one flavor or another) and DA civilians- mostly retired SOF types. All unarmed, of course, as its a Federal building on a military installation. The ONE thing I refused to do as part of the additional duty was to attend the .mil sponsored train the trainer 'run-hide-fight' course and then teach that drivel. I punted that task to a more junior NCO. I couldn't, in good conscious, "teach" that group of people to respond to such an event in that a manner... too much professional pride and self respect.

Run-hide-fight worked out quite well a few weeks ago in Orlando...
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Old 06-29-2016, 01:44 PM
VetPsychWars VetPsychWars is offline
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I did not have the privilege to serve in the military, having only one good eye from birth. I now have other physical limitations.

This doctrine doesn't sound all that stupid to me, though I might term it, "evade, escape, fight." I want to remove myself from the situation if I can, since I don't get paid to carry a badge with my gun. Only if forced to will I shoot.

I certainly don't think of myself as a sheep. I'm just not physically capable of fighting back any more.

My employer is a multinational that does not allow carry in the office, so my current carry is a Benchmade OTF switchblade. Yeah, knife to a gunfight, blah blah, but the likelyhood of anything more than strongarm robbery is slim.

It might be useful to you to know that I have attended multiple training sessions on defensive shooting, a lot of live fire in semi-dark.

Tom
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  #13  
Old 06-29-2016, 02:02 PM
aquabum aquabum is online now
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I think Running is a good option sometimes. I think Hiding is a good option sometimes. I think fighting is a good option sometimes.

I think each situation is different and should be evaluated quickly to determine your best option at that very moment in time of crisis. And your best option can change in the blink of an eye and can be different from a person next to you etc...

I think all options should be taught and not assigned an order etc... It may be best to fight right away! It may be best to hide and then fight etc... Or if you are not in the immediate danger zone, running could be your best option as well.

What if you are separated from a family member and you are armed. You are not in the immediate danger area, but your family member is. I would fight to that family member etc... even though my personal best option is to run.

It's good that something is being taught I suppose. But I have told my children at school, I don't care what they are being taught in their active shooter drills. If they try to teach them to hide, I tell my daughters that they better not do that at all!!!! Hiding is the last option in my book. I tell them to get the heck out of dodge no matter what their teacher tries to get them to do. And I tell them to just keep running like Forest Gump! Just keep running as far away from the school as you can. We have set up a designated safe area/meet up location around their school and around our house in the case that we are separated and need to meet up etc...
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  #14  
Old 06-29-2016, 02:11 PM
Obe61 Obe61 is offline
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As a DoD contractor on a DA project (most of us are former military), we recently had to attend this same training. We flummoxed the instructor: our facility is accessible by the public (not on the base); only has two egress points, both within view of each other; no windows except near the two doors; outside walls are cinder block; our work area is a cube farm with only one office for the supervisor. Even though the supervisor's door could lock, the walls are only drywall with metal 2x4 24" framing and the door is a hollow veneer door - you could penetrate the wall with a pellet gun. Same held true for the restrooms and the classrooms. Our contracted security agent is unarmed and just started shaving last week. After we raised these points, the instructor gave up and changed tactics, we ended up doing walk-around the work space identifying items that could be used in the "fight" mode and potential ambush sites.

Last edited by Obe61; 06-29-2016 at 02:17 PM.
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  #15  
Old 06-29-2016, 02:27 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
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I have access to instructional materials from other countries and the USA are the only ones teaching a "fight" component. Every other country is teach Run Hide Report.

I've heard the materials are suppose to be updated soon because some groups are opposed to the word "Fight". We're going to be using the word "Defend" because its more pc.
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  #16  
Old 06-29-2016, 02:28 PM
Berumen Berumen is offline
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That nearly matches my philosophy and I carry 99% of the time (with the exception of places against the law, ex. Church, Hospital, or Federally owned Properties).

If violence occurs in my vicinity I don't have a CCW so I can be a hero and save everyone, I CC so I can protect my family and myself, the protection of others is simply a benefit that trickles down to them because I am defending myself and family.

If/when violence occurs I:

1) Run towards cover (and move my family that way if they are with me)

2) Hide behind the cover and prepare my shot (making sure I am on target and innocent bystanders are not in the line of fire).

3) Take a clear shot at the offender trying to kill me and stop the threat.

Therefore, I think Run, Hide and Fight seems to be a logical sequence to follow during an attack of an armed individual in a public place.

Obviously, there may be some scenarios where time doesn't permit all these steps and an individual may just have to draw and fire, but I believe more often then not using Run, Hide and Fight would work out (Especially if the perp hasn't drawn down on you yet).

In 1996 two men shot in my vehicle multiple times after I happened to pull in a parking lot where they were robbing another individual (I pulled around the corner of a bank building in the evening and as I did they opened fire on me because I startled them) I was struck once and they immediately ran away jumping a gate behind the building. There was no time to run, hide or fight, it happened in a matter of seconds and they left me and their other victim (whom they were actually robbing before my presence startled them). I only had time to shove my girlfriend to the floorboard, duck to the best of my ability, throw the car in reverse and back out as fast as possible as round after round continued to hit my vehicle and knock out my windows.

Moral of the story is, sometimes you don't see the perp because of obstructions and when you do he already has a gun in hand and plans on using it on you. My girlfriend who was in the car with me (luckily was not hit) got to drive me to the hospital while I bled out on her, but I'm still here.

Last edited by Berumen; 06-29-2016 at 02:33 PM.
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  #17  
Old 06-29-2016, 02:47 PM
Mr. T Mr. T is offline
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Run, hide, and fight are about the most logical things people can do in a workplace setting. Hiding and fighting pose the biggest risks. Most of the offices I have been in do not have good hiding spots. The walls are thin, the doors aren't strong, hiding spots are obvious, not much to stop someone from making entry into a room even if you come up with a quick makeshift barricade.
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Old 06-29-2016, 04:06 PM
kwo51 kwo51 is online now
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Leo's would rather go to a shooting than a shoot out or active shooter. As a parent I will protect what is mine . Cover and protect make safe at all costs.
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  #19  
Old 06-29-2016, 04:15 PM
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AdamG247 AdamG247 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obe61 View Post
As a DoD contractor on a DA project (most of us are former military), we recently had to attend this same training. We flummoxed the instructor: our facility is accessible by the public (not on the base); only has two egress points, both within view of each other; no windows except near the two doors; outside walls are cinder block; our work area is a cube farm with only one office for the supervisor. Even though the supervisor's door could lock, the walls are only drywall with metal 2x4 24" framing and the door is a hollow veneer door - you could penetrate the wall with a pellet gun. Same held true for the restrooms and the classrooms. Our contracted security agent is unarmed and just started shaving last week. After we raised these points, the instructor gave up and changed tactics, we ended up doing walk-around the work space identifying items that could be used in the "fight" mode and potential ambush sites.
Congratulations. You made the Training more effective for your particular environment. I would give due consideration to fortifying the Supervisors office. But good on you for encouraging the Instructor to do something more effective and relevant to your situation.
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Old 06-29-2016, 04:24 PM
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In all good conscience, I would have a hard time running or hiding if I knew my fellow co-workers were being slaughtered. If I have the ability and opportunity to fight back I sure as hell hope I will.

Running and Hiding while others are being Murdered. Just goes against all I was taught and trained to do. I understand some don't have the same mindset, skillset or experiences. I also realize that my actions may mean I will die or get injured. Many of us here have put our lives on the line before. I see this as nothing different.

Perhaps if the moment does arise, I will piss my pants and crumble into a weeping fool.
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Old 06-29-2016, 05:01 PM
boatdoc boatdoc is offline
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Tis what it is. At least people are talking about it.
massad ayoob,in various writings states that to draw and use your weapon , your situation must meet the following criteria:

1. opportunity--the perp must have an opportunity to attack you in some way and take it

2. intent- self explanatory-- you can see intent. in fact you can see opportunity at the same time(IMHO)

3 ability-- must have ability to attack you. a 4 foot person is probably NOT going after a 7 foot tall person

if the situation doe s not meet these 3 + usually the law enforcement include a 4th criteria-- equal force-- you are going to prison

thus many teachers and thos e in law enforcement say--hide or get away if you can-- if you cannot, you have the right not to be hurt or killed-- but the force used must be close to equal
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Old 06-29-2016, 10:52 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Sometimes I can not help but think.

That any number of these Asbestos removal outfits have subsequently had to reinvent themselves as security consultants as the Asbestos abatement cash cow has gone away.

The last ship that I worked on before my retirement. Well they really got sucked in by one of these bogus bottom feeder outfits. New SOLAS regs came out in response to the rampant piracy activity going on off of the African coast as well as other shipping lanes. And all of the shipping companies were made to come up with plan to protect crew members under certain sets of circumstances up to and including takeover of a given vessel by pirates.

So our office pukes send these ding dongs out to ride our ship for a while. and they are paid to come up with a grand security plan to save us all in the event of a pirate boarding. An interesting side note to this is that none of these people had apparently ever been to sea before. Well they walk around and look at this and they look at that and the nod their heads and murmur amongst themselves about this and that. And finally they come up with this grand plan to secure the safety of the ship's complement in the event of a pirate boarding.

Well this idea sounds all well and good. Until they reveal it to us as to fulfill the requirements of their contract with our office. We are required to have a drill. Now the biggest part of the plan to keep us all safe in the event of a pirate boarding is that we will all have a safe compartment to retreat to with suitable steel/watertight doors to protect ourselves from armed pirates.

Well they thought that they had a really good idea in that we would all retreat to a now unused cargo hold that was no longer suitable for the type of cargo that the ship was now carrying. Well they thought that this was just the thing. And then I pointed out to them that this particular cargo hold was a CO2 protected space, which could be tripped from either the engine control room or the bridge. So that If we all did decide to hold in there, it would be a very simple matter for anyone in the engine room or on the bridge to snuff us out in fairly short order. Only a rudimentary knowledge of the English language would be required to figure this out as the controls were labeled with this in mind.

Well about this time, my relief showed up and I flew home. But there were a lot of long faces in this group of highly paid consultants when I walked down the gangway.
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Old 06-29-2016, 11:45 PM
Broker50 Broker50 is online now
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USMM guy, how dare you confuse them with facts?
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Old 06-30-2016, 12:25 AM
Rock185 Rock185 is online now
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Run, Hide, Fight actually makes sense. IMHO, most people going about their daily activities will not be armed and would not wish to be, most will not be mentally or physically prepared to respond to lethal force, certainly many or most will be in places where they are not allowed to be armed even if they wished to be. I was in the military, afterwards spent most of my adult life in LE and received all kinds of armed and unarmed type training. But, I am retired now, not as nimble, strong or situationally aware as I once was, not always armed, etc. So more and more I can relate to the average citizen out there who has never experienced the military and/or LE world. An average citizen who does not, cannot, believe that anything more violent than perhaps being jostled in the checkout line or cut off in traffic could possibly happen to them. I do not fault them for this. They simply do not think about, much less spend time considering and discussing, the types of things discussed on this forum as relates to weapons, tactics, personal defense, etc. Safe behind my keyboard, I could say I would do this or that if faced with a violent, high profile type situation as lately in the news. But, every situation is different. If I am ever unfortunate enough to be in one of these situations and survive, I'll let everybody know what I did afterwards
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Old 06-30-2016, 03:13 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Yes, Run Hide Fight is fine. At least they have Fight in there.

But I'm not so keen, for myself, on the "me & Mine" philosophy of who worth defending & who's not.

I assume "me & mine" means ones self + immediate family? How about your life-long best buddy?

Is he "yours?' Or your valued co-workers? Do they warrant saving? How about the Temp Girl?

I disagree with the whole selective concept. My policy is to attempt to save ANY & ALL innocents, within my ability (& whatever balls I can muster)

& I'd rather perish trying, leave my wife & daughter alone, than to live another 50 years knowing I sat on my hands, armed, while others died.
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