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Competitive Action Pistol shooting.....

8K views 72 replies 24 participants last post by  Jim Watson 
#1 · (Edited)
When I shoot either IDPA or USPSA matches, more individuals in my area are moving towards shooting 9mm Pistol Caliber Carbines.....some of these shooters use short barrels with suppressors, and 30 round mags.....There are many advantages to using these firearm that are not OK for pistol shooters in IDPA:

1) they are not concealed, and are already mounted to their shoulder and the muzzle pointing downward at a 45 degree angle to the ground..... this starting position will save at least one to two seconds to fire the shot, since they don't have to draw from concealment...…

2) the use of a suppressor will greatly reduce the noise, and at more than one match, we have had to have a reshoot when the SO did not record the last shot fired since he was not standing close enough for the noise to show the last shot. Using a suppressor will also slightly reduce muzzle jump....

3) 30+ round mags will save from having to make a reload....another 2-3 seconds saved during the run when their are 18 required shots.....

4) Using a shouldered Short Barrel Rifle (in 9mm) is much easier to shoot, and when using optics, is a significant advantage for accurate shot placement.

Many of the current shooters using Pistol Caliber Carbines are now placing High Overall and most finish in the top ten at the matches I attend.....which is no wonder that more shooters are buying pistol caliber carbines to show how good they can shoot!!!

I am probably going to quit shooting IDPA. The sport was originally conceived and designed for shooting pistols from concealment, not short barreled rifles that are not concealed.....the PCC users are shooting a rifle against a pistol, and do very well!

IMHO, a person that shoots a Pistol Caliber Carbine should not be included in the competitive scoring with pistol shooters.....A PCC shooter should be ranked against all PCC shooters, since they all share many competitive advantages over pistols......and ranked for all PCC shooters separately....and certainly not included in the High Overall ranking against pistol shooters.....

I know Joyce and Bill Wilson earn more money when more people attend and shoot IDPA matches, but guidelines need to be drawn up so PCC shooters are ranked against other PCC shooters, and not against Pistol shooters..... I do not know of any PCC shooters that carry their weapon concealed.....it is just not practical......:confused: I want to compete against pistol shooters....and not rifle shooters at a pistol match when looking at the overall match results!!!:confused: Good bye IDPA.....!!!
 
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#2 ·
I don't shoot IDPA but do shoot USPSA. I agree with everything you said. PCC needs to form their own league with stages designed specifically for them. The idea that it draws new shooters is crap. What happens is all the **** pistol shooters that can't compete switch to PCC.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
 
#4 ·
Not as much as I thought it was going to be. We only had one carbine at the mid-week USPSA match yesterday. It did not function well at all, the operator's response expanded my vocabulary. DIY PCCs and attempts at tweaking power factor for a 16" barrel lead to a lot of malfunctions.
 
#5 ·
While we have a few PCC shooters in our area (S Louisiana), it's not taking over the USPSA here. They still get beat by Open shooters (and occasionally a CO or Ltd shooter).

As far as IDPA, I see even fewer of them...but we only have 1 active club in Louisiana.

I am firmly in the "don't bring a rifle to a pistol competition" camp, but I don't get to make the rules...just have to enforce them in the match.
 
#7 ·
PCC is just a division within the sport. Some clubs might lump all the divisions in one big scoresheet but it isnt hard to break them out.

If your going to quit shooting IDPA because you got your feelings hurt by someone shooting a PCC, you need to toughen up a little. Its just a game.
 
#15 ·
I've seen that last part allowed to slide in club matches. Braces are so kewl, you know, and one entry fee is as good as another.

Do you have the same issues with Carry Optics shooters or Open division shooters when you do USPSA?
No, at least they are still pistols. IPSC/USPSA was a pistol sport for about 40 years before the wannabe tommygunners came along, and IDPA SAYS Pistol.
 
#13 ·
I'm confused the USPSA matches I've been to, PCC was a separate class. All were 16" 9mm's. Didn't see any with suppressors. Open shooters still took all the "marbles"!

Smiles,
 
#16 · (Edited)
IMHO, a person that shoots a Pistol Caliber Carbine should not be included in the competitive scoring with pistol shooters.....A PCC shooter should be ranked against all PCC shooters, since they all share many competitive advantages over pistols......and ranked for all PCC shooters separately....and certainly not included in the High Overall ranking against pistol shooters.....
Definitely agree.

But I guess everyone understands when they see that a PCC shooter won overall. It's expected. And the top Open guys will still do better than the top revolver guys, etc.

But I'm with you on the spirit of "a handgun competition should involve only handguns." By now, there are enough PCC shooters, I imagine they could run their own matches.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Definitely agree.

But I guess everyone understands when they see that a PCC shooter won overall. It's expected. And the top Open guys will still do better than the top revolver guys, etc.
a) overall isn't a thing.
b) pcc shooters only 'win' the overall if there is no real heat in other divisions and even then only if they are serious pcc shooters. I would be shocked if a pcc was high overall at one of our matches.
 
#19 ·
Exactly how I feel. Now that they are not slowing down the match, I only care long enough to mock them a bit, especially in the unusual event that one of them finishes in front of me (I shoot lim or SS). Actually some of my best friends shoot pcc. I think that makes me diverse and open-minded. :rock:
 
#21 ·
The IDPA matches at my club usually draw around 60 shooters and of them about 8-10 PCC's, some of which shoot a pistol class too. Except for the nubs they usually clean up but not always. For the reasons you mentioned I don't think PCC shooters are on an even playing field, well that at strong/weak hand only shooting is a joke. I think they only thing that slows them down are mandatory reloads and sometimes shooting from a vehicle or the like. The only thing that slows the matches down is they don't come to the line ready but with a case and somebody has to bring that when they finish but that's not that much.
All in all I just ignore the PCC's in the scores and it's fun anyway. I mean I could shoot PCC too but I go there for P.
 
#22 ·
My take on PCC in IDPistolA is that, "I think", it was incorporated as an attempt to get more "NEW" and"crossover" shooters into IDPA.
However, new shooters rarely pick a PCC as their first competition firearm, and the "crossover" ain't happening. Most USPSA PCC shooters aren't too interested in running an 18 round max course of fire with their 30 round PCC. And I don't blame them.
The PCC shooters I see at IDPA matches were already shooting IDPA handgun.
 
#25 ·
Or, maybe take a second to learn how to sort using the second column where it lists overall and then all the other divisions.

Most people around here like to see the overall and then take a look at how they did in their own division.
 
#41 ·
I look at the overall at local matches just for more depth because I'm usually first or 2nd in my division. I pay no attention whatsoever to the overall at major matches where my division has real heat. I could care less about beating someone with a fancier gun, because many of those people suck at shooting. I just want to beat the people that are usually a little bit ahead of me.
 
#27 ·
I've been seeing some long time shooters shooting pcc for a change of pace. But the new shooters I've been seeing start with pcc and I doubt they'll ever compete with a handgun when they realize how much they'll likely drop in the overall. To be near the top in any division is difficult but pcc is an easier way to move up some spots in the overall.
 
#28 · (Edited)
IDPA and Pistol Caliber Carbines

If your going to quit shooting IDPA because you got your feelings hurt by someone shooting a PCC,
No my feelings are not hurt....so thank you for your sarcastic remark. It is because the PCC is not a level playing field with pistols, and does not follow the original reason why IDPA was founded.....

A PCC is essentially a short barreled rifle using a pistol round...…So for IDPA, it is shooting a rifle in a pistol match.....

A PCC can not be easily concealed, so in IDPA they start with the weapon shouldered and muzzle pointing down....

A PCC shooter does not draw from concealment using a holster.....

A PCC with a thirty round mag usually does not need to make a magazine change on most stage designs......

A PCC generally has a longer sight radius, and if a reflex optic sight is used, this is a major advantage over a pistol especially on long shots of 35 or more yards....

Yet most clubs group all PCC shooters showing High Overall scores along with the pistol shooters....to me, this does not make sense.....

There are ways to mitigate the advantages of using a PCC, such as having them start with a maximum of 10 + 1 rounds in the gun.....do not allow suppressors, and perhaps only allow PCC's with iron sights.....

However, my disappointment with all of the quibbling and arguing about the rules and the stage designs in IDPA has been brewing for a while, and the addition of allowing short barreled rifles used in a competitive pistol match means I may no longer shoot IDPA. I simply have more fun with other shooting sports.....:)
 
#32 ·
There are ways to mitigate the advantages of using a PCC, such as having them start with a maximum of 10 + 1 rounds in the gun.....do not allow suppressors, and perhaps only allow PCC's with iron sights.....
Why would you want to hamstring them? Just let them shoot their game in their own division. If you arent shooting PCC, they are competing in a different division.

Maybe the guy with the PCC uses it as a house gun and he wants some trigger time and/or wants to see how an AR handles in a higher stress environment. How is that a bad thing?

IPSC/USPSA and Steel Challenge both allow PCCs. Steel Challenge (just like IDPA) even allows rimfires. Unless you start your own outlaw match with no PCC allowed you might have someone show up with one.
 
#29 ·
I simply have more fun with other shooting sports
Such as?
I consider USPSA to be equally afflicted, even though as Tom points out, it doesn't have "pistol" in the logo. If 32 shots are keweler than 18, the PCC user doesn't care, he has a 40 shot magazine.

I see attendance down at the smaller clubs either type. The larger places seem to be holding their own.

I am going to one of those "I am smarter than Bill Wilson" shoots tomorrow. It reads a lot like second year IDPA with speed reloads but we are assured that it is not choreographed to require everybody to shoot the same way. It has not spread beyond the designer's home range.

I note that the Blue Press regularly plugs a "less complicated" shoot that has several locations in the northwest. There is an offshoot in the south that has the most complicated target and scoring I have seen.
 
#31 ·
I understand the logic, PCC is hoped to be a growth area.

I wonder if there will be a widespread move to organize the AR "pistol" owners.
USPSA and IDPA specifically disallow them; although I have seen some MDs look the other way to get their business.

I see a bit of two gun and am surprised there is not more. Sustained fire with a shotgun is a bit of a circus trick and there are a lot of people who don't want to be bothered.
 
#34 · (Edited)
PCC in a pistol match

Why would you want to hamstring them....?
I don't want to see a short barreled rifle participating in a competitive pistol match regardless if is in a separate division.....just as I don't want to see a shotgun with a 19 round magazine in a competitive pistol match....and I own one and use it for 3-gun competition.....

I say let the short barreled rifle shooters (PCC) compete in two gun or three gun competition, or any other venues where rifles are used.....

I have listed all of the competitive advantages of a PCC compared to shooting a pistol in IDPA in my post.....no one has to agree with my rationale, nor do I have to compete with people that shoot shoulder mounted short barreled rifles in a pistol match! If the PCC was on a level playing field with pistols, then having a separate gun division would be fine.....but they are not.....
 
#35 ·
I don't want to see a short barreled rifle participating in a competitive pistol match regardless if is in a separate division.....just as I don't want to see a shotgun with a 19 round magazine in a competitive pistol match....and I own one and use it for 3-gun competition.....

I say let the short barreled rifle shooters (PCC) compete in two gun or three gun competition, or any other venues where rifles are used.....

I have listed all of the competitive advantages of a PCC compared to shooting a pistol in IDPA in my post.....no one has to agree with my rationale, nor do I have to compete with people that shoot shoulder mounted short barreled rifles in a pistol match! If the PCC was on a level playing field with pistols, then having a separate gun division would be fine.....but they are not.....
We could require 10 round max and trenchcoats...
 
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